Niman: a manifesto

[Obese Wan Kenobese]

Outsider's opinion coming...   

First, there are multiple people here on this thread that have videos I've found indispensable, and I must thank you. 

Wookiepedia states that Niman is an easier form to learn, though not so useful on the battlefield. As this is fiction, what one group calls Niman isn't really. Real martial arts training builds on other forms throughout history as real people invented, learned and invented again techniques built on other techniques and skills. What one of you calls form VI may need what you call forms I-V first, but what someone else calls form VI may need something else you'd put in a different form. I get the feeling that Cephalus is looking to incorporate more into what is being called Niman in our real world. Since you're all taking your interpretation of a fictional Niman and attempting to fit reality into the concept, it's best not to get too heated when developing your own use of the names of the forms as they inspire you. I hope you all keep doing awesome stuff so the rest of us can follow without anyone missing out on developing new things together because of differing experience and schools of thought.

[Darth Cephalus]

That pretty much sums up my sentiment. I was not posting to raise any hackles, though admittedly I knew it might happen. There is a reason I have not posted in this board much at all for the last year. I have great respect for how TPLA does things. It is just that I don't do them that way. Their goals are not exactly my goals even though I think in the end we agree on more than we disagree on.  I have my own thoughts on forms 1 to 5 as well, but that is not where my passion lies. My original post was called a manifesto, because I am going to do this. The thread was just to explain why I will be doing it how I will be doing it. I posted for feedback because I find it helps to be challenged. I disagree because I wanted to let you know where my views differed from yours in the interest of better understanding. Let's just keep in mind that none of us have the only answer. Let's also keep In mind that none of us are unbiased. Of course I like my ideas better than yours. They are my ideas.

[Obese Wan Kenobese]

Getting under the skin as the heresiarch of inadvisable saber techniques does to any saber adviser. 

[Master Seblaise]

The only point on which I disagree with Uilos is in regards to the masterclass idea. Holding a form as untouchable until the prerequisites are met has never sat right with me. I try to see them all as equal options. I understand where it is coming from. The TPLA system with its pillars is a scaffold learning system. You learn the pillars and then you specialize or learn an overlay form (I am sure that term is not going to be one that he likes, but that is how I see it). It makes sense and is a big part of their approach. My approach is different. I see a niman aspirant as someone who does not exactly work their way up through the other forms but rather works on them all simultaneously. Picking up the basics of different forms together helps to place the emphasis on how they work together and helps prevent the dogma of any one form from having too strong a grip. This flexibility is itself what I see as the dogma of niman. As I said, this sounds weird in martial arts. It is not weird in flow arts. The Jackie Chan thing is a good example. Flow artists can pick up a new tool or found object and a good portion of what they know is immediately transferable. They have to find the new point of balance and adjust for it. I have found myself working with kayak paddles, umbrellas, foam swords, boxes, and all manner of things.

Surprisingly Uilos agrees with me on the non martial elements of the form. That is a first. Usually bringing that idea up in the combat board is a lot like poking a bear with a stick. Most of what I do is non combat. It is more of a meditation or movement science. Still it has martial applications. I have little to no hand to hand skill, but I feel safe walking down the street: even empty handed. I am pretty sure that as long as I can find something at least marginally long and sturdy, I would be able to make use of it to defend myself.

Focusing on the non martial though, my other goal has become integrating what can be integrated of functional force powers. Levitation through contact moves or additional gear has been my focus of late.

Coming out of the realm of philosophy into the specifies of what I propose, let me provide an overview. I have stated that I will be re-shooting my tutorial series. This time I will also be discussing strikes, wards, stances, and jumps. I will not be doing this from a combat position but rather as they relate to stopping motion, adding motion, or changing direction. I will be teaching it as a set of moves or tricks rather than as a dulon or kata. These moves, taken from other forms, provide the basics. Learning them all, should take no more than a year. From there, Niman is learning to fit them all together. First will be a look at directionality and transitions, then more advanced footwork designed to work around the bladework. At this point, they will have achieved flow and can improve on their own through practice and self discovery if they wish. If they stick with it, next comes adaptation of the previous to different weapons (end heavy, base heavy, and balanced). Learning each is an adjustment to the basics. Next comes dual weapons. Leaning this is a further adjustment. Next comes a look at the various weapons and an exploration of techniques specific to each weapon type because of its point of balance. In this section we will begin to learn how to let go of the weapon which is the first step into the force. The next section will specialize on just that. The final section, that I tend to think of as a Sith technique, is about defying gravity rather than working with it.

Thanks for reformulating

[Master Uilos]

That pretty much sums up my sentiment. I was not posting to raise any hackles, though admittedly I knew it might happen. There is a reason I have not posted in this board much at all for the last year. I have great respect for how TPLA does things. It is just that I don't do them that way. Their goals are not exactly my goals even though I think in the end we agree on more than we disagree on.  I have my own thoughts on forms 1 to 5 as well, but that is not where my passion lies. My original post was called a manifesto, because I am going to do this. The thread was just to explain why I will be doing it how I will be doing it. I posted for feedback because I find it helps to be challenged. I disagree because I wanted to let you know where my views differed from yours in the interest of better understanding. Let's just keep in mind that none of us have the only answer. Let's also keep In mind that none of us are unbiased. Of course I like my ideas better than yours. They are my ideas.

I wasn't directing that at you. I've seen a lot of people come in to the community who go "I'm a master of Niman/Juyo/All Seven Forms" That is, in my mind, a clear red flag that someone is walking in to this community grossly over-estimating their skill and supremely underestimating the work this community (yourself included Ceph) have put in to this. And when either fact becomes obvious, those people fade off.

In short, I'm not trying to downcast you, I'm stating a trend that crops up from time to time and we should be mindful of. I support and applaud your efforts, and I will also critique and debate any work presented.

Also, when I post things, it's on my bill and not TPLA unless clearly stated. TPLA is a primarily martial art school. I have a background in Martial and Choreographed lightsaber combat, more so the choreography. As such, I believe there are multiple ways of doing this wacky hobby of ours.

[Master Seblaise]

The debate is very interesting.

Martial Arts are ... Arts and obviously they are subjective and any point of view is respectful. It is also obvious that debating these points of view leads to suffering passionate exchanges

Too me, considering a given form, the point of view of a passionate cosplayer geek or a Wushu world champion geek are about the same value. Of course, i speak about the philosophy of the form, i do not speak about the technical aspects (here, i think that the Wushu guy is more interesting )

I do not know a lot about the forms and i like to read what you write.

As a Martial Artist, i think that the concept and the meaning of "master" has to be considered with a cultural point of view. And because LightSaber combat is practiced by so many people from (1) so many cultures and sometimes (2) so many martial backgrounds, the debates about "master" in the 7 forms are endless but very interesting

[Darth Cephalus]

Thanks. That does clear up what you meant. Text is a cold medium, so it is difficult sometimes. I know I have a tendency to come across as angrier than I am. Another point to keep in mind is that when some people say they are a master of Niman, they mean by that that their character is a master of Niman. Since we have such a diverse crowd on here, it sometimes gets hard to know which are which. By and large, I consider that if they are having fun and getting what they want from the hobby, then great. I do have to admit though that it does get a bit aggravating when they then try to give you advice.

At any rate, my plan is to start all of this as soon as I am done with this year's spin wars, so I anticipate the first few videos to be finished in January. I welcome the feedback and am curious to see how this project, the first of this kind I have attempted, will hold up to scrutany once it gets out of my head and onto film. An Ultrasabers spokesperson has said they may be interested in using some of them in a video project of some sort. I am not sure if this is the Holochron, or something else, but I will update as I find out. All in all, it should comprise about 50 videos and will not be done any time soon. It will be something of a continual work in progress and may get revised along the way as well. If things pan out, the final few videos on levitation may not be anything I can post on here as they may find me working more directly with another company, but if that happens, I will let people know.

[Greywolf]

Coming out of the realm of philosophy into the specifies of what I propose, let me provide an overview. I have stated that I will be re-shooting my tutorial series. This time I will also be discussing strikes, wards, stances, and jumps. I will not be doing this from a combat position but rather as they relate to stopping motion, adding motion, or changing direction. I will be teaching it as a set of moves or tricks rather than as a dulon or kata. These moves, taken from other forms, provide the basics. Learning them all, should take no more than a year. From there, Niman is learning to fit them all together. First will be a look at directionality and transitions, then more advanced footwork designed to work around the bladework. At this point, they will have achieved flow and can improve on their own through practice and self discovery if they wish. If they stick with it, next comes adaptation of the previous to different weapons (end heavy, base heavy, and balanced). Learning each is an adjustment to the basics. Next comes dual weapons. Leaning this is a further adjustment. Next comes a look at the various weapons and an exploration of techniques specific to each weapon type because of its point of balance. In this section we will begin to learn how to let go of the weapon which is the first step into the force. The next section will specialize on just that. The final section, that I tend to think of as a Sith technique, is about defying gravity rather than working with it.

This forecast/agenda really sounds like you're coming up with something I might enjoy quite a bit

[Master Seblaise]

Text is a cold medium, so it is difficult sometimes. 

It is a cold medium ... and many of us are not native English speaker 

[Vivectius]

Note: the following is my opinion.  I am a master of absolutely nothing (which is a really zen thing now that I think about it....). It is only my opinion.  While parts of it disagree with other things that have been writen here, I am not attacking anyone, nor saying that they are wrong.  Just because we have different points of view, or disagree about something does not mean that one of us is wrong.  It just means we see things differently.

I've always seen Niman as a blending of the two aspects of form V.  And to me, Form V is the blending and separating of the offensive and defensive aspects of Forms I - IV.

I'm going to try to represent this using alpha-numeric symbols and hope it works.  I'm going to use the traditional martial arts kata as the template for my explanation. It is a touch over simplifying things, but it's the best I can come up with.

The kata in most martial arts is a set of pre-defined, interconnected movements.  Each move (usually) flows into the next, but only within the limits of that particular set of movements.

So, to set up the alpha-numeric Forms table, each kata within a Form will have it's own set, and each movement will have it's own number/letter.  To follow Occam, I'm going to limit each form to two kata.

Form I - (11a, 11b, 11c, 11d) (12a, 12b, 12c, 12d)
Form II - (21a, 21b, 21c, 21d) (22a, 22b, 22c, 22d)
Form III - (31a, 31b, 31c, 31d) (32a, 32b, 33c, 33d)
Form IV - (41a, 41b, 41c, 41d) (42a, 42b, 42c, 43d)

Form V(s) - (31a, 31b, 31c, 31d) (12a, 12b, 12c, 12d)
Form V(ds) - (21a, 21b, 21c, 21d) (41a, 41b, 41c, 41d)
Form VI - (11a, 21b, 31c, 41d) (42a, 32b, 22c, 12a)

Form VII - (42a, 21b, 33d, 11a, 43q, 11a, 32b, 21a, 19c)

Explanation: Forms I-IV are sets of predefined movements.  Form V separates the sets into Offensive and Defensive and recombines the sets to be used together, but still only as sets.  Form VI combines the moves from the Form I-IV sets into new sets.  This to me is the essence of Niman, finding out what move(s) from one kata can fit together with moves from other kata to form a new kata. This, I feel, is why a grounding in the previous Forms is so important.  You need to know what pieces you can take from different puzzles to make a new picture.

Note 1) I combined forms I and III as the basis for Shien as it is described as being more defensive than Djem So, which I combined forms II and IV for.  Djem So is also described as being more for Lightsaber to Lightsaber combat, which fits well with forms II and IV.

Note 2) I added Form VII for completeness sake, and it's basis come from the description of "a rapid stucatto of seemingly unconnected movements." (Roughly paraphrased).  I think it's the connecting of the unconnected that makes Form VII so difficult to figure out, both what it should look like in the real world, and how to fight/defend with/against it. It can be best summed up by "What color of the alphabet is your favorite flavor?" The answer, of course, is 9.

[Master Uilos]

Note: the following is my opinion.  I am a master of absolutely nothing (which is a really zen thing now that I think about it....). It is only my opinion.  While parts of it disagree with other things that have been writen here, I am not attacking anyone, nor saying that they are wrong.  Just because we have different points of view, or disagree about something does not mean that one of us is wrong.  It just means we see things differently.

I've always seen Niman as a blending of the two aspects of form V.  And to me, Form V is the blending and separating of the offensive and defensive aspects of Forms I - IV.

I'm going to try to represent this using alpha-numeric symbols and hope it works.  I'm going to use the traditional martial arts kata as the template for my explanation. It is a touch over simplifying things, but it's the best I can come up with.

The kata in most martial arts is a set of pre-defined, interconnected movements.  Each move (usually) flows into the next, but only within the limits of that particular set of movements.

So, to set up the alpha-numeric Forms table, each kata within a Form will have it's own set, and each movement will have it's own number/letter.  To follow Occam, I'm going to limit each form to two kata.

Form I - (11a, 11b, 11c, 11d) (12a, 12b, 12c, 12d)
Form II - (21a, 21b, 21c, 21d) (22a, 22b, 22c, 22d)
Form III - (31a, 31b, 31c, 31d) (32a, 32b, 33c, 33d)
Form IV - (41a, 41b, 41c, 41d) (42a, 42b, 42c, 43d)

Form V(s) - (31a, 31b, 31c, 31d) (12a, 12b, 12c, 12d)
Form V(ds) - (21a, 21b, 21c, 21d) (41a, 41b, 41c, 41d)
Form VI - (11a, 21b, 31c, 41d) (42a, 32b, 22c, 12a)

Form VII - (42a, 21b, 33d, 11a, 43q, 11a, 32b, 21a, 19c)

Explanation: Forms I-IV are sets of predefined movements.  Form V separates the sets into Offensive and Defensive and recombines the sets to be used together, but still only as sets.  Form VI combines the moves from the Form I-IV sets into new sets.  This to me is the essence of Niman, finding out what move(s) from one kata can fit together with moves from other kata to form a new kata. This, I feel, is why a grounding in the previous Forms is so important.  You need to know what pieces you can take from different puzzles to make a new picture.

Note 1) I combined forms I and III as the basis for Shien as it is described as being more defensive than Djem So, which I combined forms II and IV for.  Djem So is also described as being more for Lightsaber to Lightsaber combat, which fits well with forms II and IV.

Note 2) I added Form VII for completeness sake, and it's basis come from the description of "a rapid stucatto of seemingly unconnected movements." (Roughly paraphrased).  I think it's the connecting of the unconnected that makes Form VII so difficult to figure out, both what it should look like in the real world, and how to fight/defend with/against it. It can be best summed up by "What color of the alphabet is your favorite flavor?" The answer, of course, is 9.

That's an interesting way of seeing it. TPLA has a similar mindset, with Form V being the synthesis point and Niman being the refinement. I assume dark side points?

[Darth Cephalus]

Update: I have 9 videos filmed and am editing them. I wanted to rework my original series with some of what I ave learned and make it more directed towards flow arts. It is in line with the Niman Manifesto I posted above. Video 1 is figure 8s, video 2 is strikes, 3 is walking with the saber, 4 is the dread obi-ani, 5 is an obi ani strike, 6 is changing direction, 7 is the clock face spin, and 8 is the full plum flower. The 9th (or detestably the first) is a primer on lightsaber use as it exists in the real world. I cover costume pieces, dueling, choreography, flow arts, and use as a martial arts training or sporting tool. I provide example video and visual aids. It is already up and is below. The 8 tutorials should be starting to get uploaded by the weekend as I finish editing. Video on seven forms coming soon too as well as a theory video on Niman. I figure once I get people to a plumb flower, I call that the first set. I will start off the second set by combining the elements of the first set into spinning and striking and moving fluidly or basic flow. Then the second set moves on the the more complicated spins (over the shoulder and reverse spins), hand switches, and pivoting footwork. The third set puts it all together into more advanced flow. It will then move in to flips, jumps, thrusts and jump strikes. Fourth set and fifth set I am still planning. I need to get in to contact work and cross-weapon transition. Staff adaptation will live in here. I just have not figured out the ideal order yet. 6th set will be dual wield and 7th will be string work.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UevYAWVrVxA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=UevYAWVrVxA</a>

[Darth Cephalus]

The first few are up ahead of schedule. I am not entirely happy with the strike video, but I recap it well enough in those that follow.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY35V3hZP7c" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY35V3hZP7c</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zyaoBfE-pU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zyaoBfE-pU</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOdt9LSRrbM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOdt9LSRrbM</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-myHeYi3-U" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-myHeYi3-U</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNM-n0uS7cA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNM-n0uS7cA</a>

[Darth Cephalus]

and a preview of the Obi-Ani or Eclipse Spin (not final version)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYQawq4zv0o" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYQawq4zv0o</a>

[Darth Cephalus]

One more and then I will call it for the day

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk7hHBY8AgE" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk7hHBY8AgE</a>

This video deals with one of the harder spins for people to learn: the Obi-Ani spin, which is also called an Eclipse spin or a shoulder roll spin. Following the video, there is a close-up and step by step of the move from the front, side, and back. Next up is working a strike into this spin.