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Author Topic: Have the digital recreations gone too far?  (Read 11735 times)
Obese Wan Kenobese
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« on: December 18, 2016, 09:47:02 AM »

What do you all think, have the digital recreations gone too far?



Is it acceptable to have a likeness belong to a corporation to do with as they please for entertainment even after someone has passed away? Is it necessary? Is it even sufficient vs. recasting?
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ithekro
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2016, 10:05:50 AM »

If it works, it works.
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Lord Bladewraith
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2016, 05:09:25 PM »

I read that the director and the FX team knew it would be a bold move, and Gareth asked his FX team if it was too risky, and they said no and that they could definitely pull it off, and I really think they did. I much prefer that they did it that way than recast or to try and be clever and shift the view to not see their faces. I thought having them in the movie the way they were added substance to the story they were trying to tell, and if I were to see a different version now without them like they are now, I would truly miss the way they had them and want them back. I thought what they did was incredible. The reproduction of a human being with CGI has never looked better vs. say what they did with Arnold Schwarzenegger in the last Terminator movie.
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Jev Moldara
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2016, 01:48:56 PM »

After seeing the digital de-aging they did to Michael Douglas in Ant Man, I'm not surprised at how the recent example we're dancing around turned out. Despite their flaws, they're orders of magnitude better than what they did with Jeff Bridges in Tron: Legacy.
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Jev Moldara
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2016, 01:51:16 PM »

What do you all think, have the digital recreations gone too far?



Is it acceptable to have a likeness belong to a corporation to do with as they please for entertainment even after someone has passed away? Is it necessary? Is it even sufficient vs. recasting?

Also, I imagine that they got permission from said person's estate to use their likeness for the film, as even though they used a body double with a few prosthetics in ROTS, that shot was from a long way off so you couldn't spot any differences. Up close, however, CGI has gotten good enough to make a good facsimile of the person's likeness and have it give a convincing performance.

The real test of CGI characters will come when they do one of two things:

1) Use CGI body doubling to revive the careers of long dead actors and actresses, such as having Amy Adams star in a film with Digital Humphrey Bogart. That would definitely cause some heads to turn and the legal eagles would be coming out to play.

2) Create an entire digital person and have them be so lifelike that people cannot tell that they aren't real.
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Darth Knox
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2016, 02:29:12 PM »

When Crispin Glover got too big for his britches and asked for silly money to appear in Back to the Future 2, the studio said no and recast him with another actor in prosthetics to portray the much old George McFly. However Glover took the studio to court and won as they used footage of him from the first movie without his permission.

That court case set a precedence in Hollywood that is still in effect today regarding the usage of an actor without their permission. In regards to Tarkin, they will definitely have had to get permission from his relatives/estate in the first place before they would be allowed to recreate him digitally.

As a feat of technological advancement, it was better in some scenes than others. However, if you look at the latest trailer for War for the Planet of the Apes, those apes look real. You'd be hard pressed to tell they were CGI if you weren't aware you were watching a movie. However, the technology is still in the uncanny valley when it comes to humans. Apes, Gollum, explosions, The Hulk…..these can all look amazing, but the technology just can't perfect a human being. Yet. But it's getting there, especially when you look at how far it has come from Tron Legacy and Benjamin Button. That being said, I thought the Leia CGI was really bad, especially when compared to Tarkin (maybe they didn't have enough time to make it look better).

So what does this mean for the future? WIll studios start resurrecting long dead stars from Hollywood's past and use them in new movies? I doubt it, mainly for two reasons. First, the Crispin Glover ruling. As a one-off it's a curiosity, but if it looked like it was going to become "a thing" I could see lots of estates denying studios permission.

Secondly, it is unnecessary. Bringing back Humphrey Bogart, as someone suggested, just for the sake of having in a movie is tacky at best and disrespectful at worst. Let the dead rest.

In the case of Rogue One and where it lands in the Star Wars timeline, you did kind of have to have Tarkin make an appearance. But Star Wars is a massive ongoing franchise and it's not like they decided "You know who would have been great to play this part? Peter Cushing. It's a shame he passed away". PC already appeared in the franchise. And, if you are watching Star Wars Rebels and read the spinoff novels, Tarkin is a massive player; involved in many aspects of the story.

Overall, I get why Tarkin (ad Leia) were done. Opinions will vary as to whether it was a jarring experience or not. However, I don't think this will become "the norm" in Hollywood.
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ithekro
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« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2016, 08:11:09 PM »

The CGI for Tarkin is impressive.  I think most of the negativity is based on people knowing it cannot be him since Peter Cushing is dead and has been for a long time now.  It could also be something from the 3D or IMAX experience that I didn't see since I watched it in 2D.
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scifidude79
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2016, 01:29:51 AM »

People get butthurt when they know something is CGI.  If it's believable and you don't tell them it's CGI, they'll think it's real.  Tell them later that it's CGI and they'll tell you they knew all along, even though they didn't. Roll Eyes I honestly don't get it.  Why do people hate CGI so much?

Personally, if they have permission from Peter Cushing's estate, why not?  I mean, to me, he is Tarkin.  I don't want to see someone else as Tarkin.  They've used footage of dead actors before, a CGI recreation is the next logical step.  And you know they're not using Carrie Fisher's likeness without her getting paid.
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Noctis
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2016, 05:18:14 AM »

Maybe I will sound callous, but . . .

Here's the thing:  It's a character. No one is bringing back the dead.  If they were using the likeness of a deceased actor/actress as themselves and NOT as character, that would be another matter.  However, if it were old-school animation, would be people be shouting about it?  If Tarkin got his own Saturday morning cartoon, would that be disrespectful or insulting simply because the actor is deceased?  I think not.  To me, CGI is advanced animation.

In this instance, I had absolutely no problem with it and fail to see how it's unkind to do this for a character.  If they were using the actor's likeness to promote a commercial for vodka, I might raise an eyebrow, but not for a fictional persona.

Also, let's not forget how they sometimes use holograms and such in concerts.  What about that business?  I just don't think any of it offensive or disrespectful.  
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Jev Moldara
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2016, 05:27:20 AM »

Here's the thing . . . . it's a character. No one is bringing back the dead.  If they were using the likeness of a deceased actor/actress as themselves and NOT as character, that would be another matter.  However, if it were old-school animation, would be people be shouting about it?  If Tarkin got his own Saturday morning cartoon, would that be disrespectful or insulting simply because the actor is deceased?  I think not.  

In this instance, I had absolutely no problem with it and fail to see how it's unkind to do this for a character.  If they were using the actor's likeness to promote a commercial for vodka, I might raise an eyebrow, but not for a fictional persona.

Pretty much this exactly. Tarkin was an integral part of ANH. If they avoided having him in Rogue One entirely simply because Peter Cushing was dead, I'd be wondering exactly where he was, especially considering where the movie left off. It was important to establish him on the Death Star because he was on it the entire time in ANH. They needed him to set up his own petard so he could later be hoisted from it.

The most important thing about his appearance wasn't that he was there. It was that his appearance was well done and honored his appearance in ANH.

The same establishing shots could also be deemed appropriate for the other three characters who showed up at the end. They needed to be established as part of the Rebel Alliance so their later appearances could be justified.

The only difference between them and Tarkin is that two of them involved reused footage and the third was a digital recreation of a younger version of a living person.
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2016, 03:37:34 PM »

Pretty much this exactly. Tarkin was an integral part of ANH. If they avoided having him in Rogue One entirely simply because Peter Cushing was dead, I'd be wondering exactly where he was, especially considering where the movie left off. It was important to establish him on the Death Star because he was on it the entire time in ANH. They needed him to set up his own petard so he could later be hoisted from it.

The most important thing about his appearance wasn't that he was there. It was that his appearance was well done and honored his appearance in ANH.

The same establishing shots could also be deemed appropriate for the other three characters who showed up at the end. They needed to be established as part of the Rebel Alliance so their later appearances could be justified.

The only difference between them and Tarkin is that two of them involved reused footage and the third was a digital recreation of a younger version of a living person.

Again, exactly this. To me it honors Cushing's performance as Tarkin and why he is so significant to the SW universe. I mean we don't see any throw backs to Admiral Motti

    or even more fan service throw back to Admiral Yularen

I think the way they handled Tarkin's appearance was epically well done, and not over used.
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2016, 03:45:05 PM »

Again, exactly this. To me it honors Cushing's performance as Tarkin and why he is so significant to the SW universe.

Right.  It's a tribute to the man himself.  Disney/Lucas Film is saying, this man is Tarkin, we're not recasting him.  I think it's the better choice.
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2016, 06:09:51 PM »

Right.  It's a tribute to the man himself.  Disney/Lucas Film is saying, this man is Tarkin, we're not recasting him.  I think it's the better choice.
Which is pretty much why I'm so against the Han movie. Han is and forever will be Han Solo. Accept no substitutes.
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2016, 09:42:49 PM »

Which is pretty much why I'm so against the Han movie. Han is and forever will be Han Solo. Accept no substitutes.

That they can probably get away with because Harrison Ford likely wants to be away from that role and more or less given his blessing on using someone else.
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2016, 10:51:17 PM »

That they can probably get away with because Harrison Ford likely wants to be away from that role and more or less given his blessing on using someone else.
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