duel weilding/staff

[Tony89]

Sorry if people have covered this before and i missed it. I know Darth Mauls saber was 2 sabers together but what are the techniques and practicalities of going from duel wielding single sabers and the connecting the mid fight and going from staff to dual welding sabers mid fight and when would this be a good idea or if it is total suicide and has anyone tried this?

[Vivectius]

Sorry if people have covered this before and i missed it. I know Darth Mauls saber was 2 sabers together but what are the techniques and practicalities of going from duel wielding single sabers and the connecting the mid fight and going from staff to dual welding sabers mid fight and when would this be a good idea or if it is total suicide and has anyone tried this?

My doctoral thesis is going to be titled "You want to use a saberstaff why?"

Ok, first, the following is my opinion and my opinion only.  It's not meant to be fact, absolute truth, or the be all end all of how to fight with a Lightsaber.  It's based on my own personal experience, knowledge, and philosophy.  If anyone disagrees, good. Present your argument and we can discuss it.  Remember, this is only my point of view.

So, to answer the question in three parts:

1) Going from dual wielding to saberstaff - I am of the belief that going from fighting with two blades to fighting with one blade is a bad idea.  But first, how many opponents are you facing?  What are they using? Single saber? Dual wield? Saberstaff? Saber pike? Saber spear?  And how proficient are you with a saberstaff?  How proficient are you dual wielding?  In general, unless you are exceptionally skilled with a saberstaff and your opponent has little to no experience against one, I think using a saberstaff at all is not a good idea.  Especially if you are giving up dual wielding to do it.  A saberstaff inherently limits what you can do with it, and is essentially a single bladed weapon.  Using a saber in each hand, if used correctly, greatly expands your ability to attack and defend.

2) Going from saberstaff to dual wield - a much better idea than going the other way.  IF you can dual wield effectively.  I posted this before, but the biggest mistake I see people with a saber in each hand make is attacking with each saber separately.  The best example I can give you is the Anakin/Dooku fight in Attack of the Clones. After Obi-Wan throws Anakin his saber, Anakin attacks with each one separately.  He strikes with one, then the other, then the first again, and so on, which lets Dooku block each strike individually as if Anakin were using only one saber (yes, I know it's a choreographed fight, and that's fine, Anakin is probably supposed to look that bad fighting, but it's still an excellent example).  Dual wielding one should be moving both blades at their opponent at the same time.  It isn't easy, but it's very effective.  Also note that, unless you specifically set your hands up for it, splitting the staff is usually going to result in you holding one of the sabers in a reverse grip, so I suggest becoming proficient with that as well.

3) Has anyone tried it, when is a good time, and is it suicide? - Yes, when you have the greatest chance of winning the fight by doing it, and not if you know what you're doing.  Generally you'll surprise your opponent more going from saberstaff to dual wield since they will suddenly have to deal with two sabers.

[Tony89]

My doctoral thesis is going to be titled "You want to use a saberstaff why?"

Ok, first, the following is my opinion and my opinion only.  It's not meant to be fact, absolute truth, or the be all end all of how to fight with a Lightsaber.  It's based on my own personal experience, knowledge, and philosophy.  If anyone disagrees, good. Present your argument and we can discuss it.  Remember, this is only my point of view.

So, to answer the question in three parts:

1) Going from dual wielding to saberstaff - I am of the belief that going from fighting with two blades to fighting with one blade is a bad idea.  But first, how many opponents are you facing?  What are they using? Single saber? Dual wield? Saberstaff? Saber pike? Saber spear?  And how proficient are you with a saberstaff?  How proficient are you dual wielding?  In general, unless you are exceptionally skilled with a saberstaff and your opponent has little to no experience against one, I think using a saberstaff at all is not a good idea.  Especially if you are giving up dual wielding to do it.  A saberstaff inherently limits what you can do with it, and is essentially a single bladed weapon.  Using a saber in each hand, if used correctly, greatly expands your ability to attack and defend.

2) Going from saberstaff to dual wield - a much better idea than going the other way.  IF you can dual wield effectively.  I posted this before, but the biggest mistake I see people with a saber in each hand make is attacking with each saber separately.  The best example I can give you is the Anakin/Dooku fight in Attack of the Clones. After Obi-Wan throws Anakin his saber, Anakin attacks with each one separately.  He strikes with one, then the other, then the first again, and so on, which lets Dooku block each strike individually as if Anakin were using only one saber (yes, I know it's a choreographed fight, and that's fine, Anakin is probably supposed to look that bad fighting, but it's still an excellent example).  Dual wielding one should be moving both blades at their opponent at the same time.  It isn't easy, but it's very effective.  Also note that, unless you specifically set your hands up for it, splitting the staff is usually going to result in you holding one of the sabers in a reverse grip, so I suggest becoming proficient with that as well.

3) Has anyone tried it, when is a good time, and is it suicide? - Yes, when you have the greatest chance of winning the fight by doing it, and not if you know what you're doing.  Generally you'll surprise your opponent more going from saberstaff to dual wield since they will suddenly have to deal with two sabers.

Thanks for that it was interesting to read. I don't yet own a saber but will soon, I want a staff because I have always loved how cool it looked with Darth Maul using it and love the options it gives being able to have 2 sabers or a staff. As I have never done martial arts or sword fighting i'm not at all competent in any form of dulling (although have rencently started attending a dulling club so I will improve) which is why i'm asking what i guess could be stupid questions but this seems like the best place to ask and if people have tried stuff I can learn from their experience. I know in history people have fought with 2 sword, single sword and staffs, unlike lightsabers these don't tent to connect and disconnect but I assume if you are capable enough all can beat each other. However, I do take your point about 2 sabers striking at the same time being a good way to go.

Have points

[Landen Se-Sentien]

Thanks for that it was interesting to read. I don't yet own a saber but will soon, I want a staff because I have always loved how cool it looked with Darth Maul using it and love the options it gives being able to have 2 sabers or a staff. As I have never done martial arts or sword fighting i'm not at all competent in any form of dulling (although have rencently started attending a dulling club so I will improve) which is why i'm asking what i guess could be stupid questions but this seems like the best place to ask and if people have tried stuff I can learn from their experience. I know in history people have fought with 2 sword, single sword and staffs, unlike lightsabers these don't tent to connect and disconnect but I assume if you are capable enough all can beat each other. However, I do take your point about 2 sabers striking at the same time being a good way to go.

Have points

Learn to crawl before you walk or even try to run.

Focus on one saber, correct technique, footwork, defense, etc. Learn to control one blade with two hands, then one blade with one hand. Then get proficient at using your non dominant hand by itself before trying to use both hands at the same time.

[Tony89]

I agree learn to walk before you can run and intend on doing it in the order you said, I was just wondering if you took people equally skilled in the different styles of combat who would have the advantage and what gives them the advantage over the other styles.

[Vivectius]

Landen stated exactly my philosophy on learning how to dual wield.  Learn with one hand first, then the other hand, then both at once.

Once again, the below is my opinion only, based on my experience, knowledge, and philosophy.

All things being equal, someone with two sabers should beat anyone using either a single saber or saberstaff.  A single saber or saberstaff are only capable of blocking an attack from a single angle.  If two sabers are coming in on two different angles, you cannot block both at once.  There is a video I'll post or at least link to of a fellow forum member that is a perfect example of how to dual wield.

Contrary to what a lot of people think, the saberstaff is best used defensively.  Which, ignoring that the fights are all choreographed, is why Maul had such a hard time against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.  And rather than type it all out again, I'm just going to quote myself.

Too many people forget that a saberstaff is, in functional terms, really a single bladed weapon.  Which, other than choreography reasons, is why Maul had to keep separating Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon.  He didn't know how to use the staff defensively, and couldn't cope with more than one opponent at a time.  Fighting cooperatively, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon should have beaten him.  Unfortunately, jedi had long discarded the saberstaff (with a few exceptions, like Krell), so they didn't know how to effectively fight around it. In Universe, the jedi came to consider the saberstaff as "too offensive" a weapon, which is ironic given that it's put to best use defensively.

I will give Maul credit for using the "terrain" to separate and keep separated Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon.  If you cannot beat them together, try fighting them separately.

Useless Maul trivia:  the only time we see Maul blink in the entire movie is when Obi-Wan cuts him in half.

[Landen Se-Sentien]

If the chosen weapon was the only true variable, then I'd have to say:

1 - Dual wield lightsabers.
2 - Single lightsaber.
3 - Lightsaber staff.

Again, this is assuming all skill levels and other personal stats (height, strength, reach etc.) are all equal.

Two blades operating independently would have an advantage. That doesn't mean it can't be overcome, it just has the advantage. The lightsaber staff cannot be used in a lot of the ways a traditional, wooden staff can, so it loses some of its advantages. The hilt also presents a large target for those who count hilt strikes.

This is simply my opinion.

[Vivectius]

Oh good, Landen posted so now I can put this up without double posting  .

I give you Master Artorius Vidnyl:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMCq--vomkQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMCq--vomkQ</a>

And, because I can, a link to three more dual wield videos, two from Master Nero, and one more from Master Artorius.  http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=31717.msg505460#msg505460

[Tony89]

very impressive video and thanks for the posts guys makes very interesting reading. To run the risk of pushing my luck, when duel wielding what is the difference between normal grip and reverse grip and i don't mean how you hold it more how would it help or hinder your fighting and would you go with 1 each way or both the same?

[Landen Se-Sentien]

very impressive video and thanks for the posts guys makes very interesting reading. To run the risk of pushing my luck, when duel wielding what is the difference between normal grip and reverse grip and i don't mean how you hold it more how would it help or hinder your fighting and would you go with 1 each way or both the same?

There is a lot of debate on that subject. Some people think it's garbage. They say it limits your attacks, limits your range, limits your defense, and it limits your disarms. Others ask if they've ever fought an expert in that style of fighting. To me, it seems like the people who are skilled at it spend an insane amount of time to get that way. I would say more than they would spend to get as equally skilled using a traditional grip (again, just my observation and opinion).

For my preference, it just doesn't feel natural with a sword. It's ok with a knife, although the I've never done any knife fighting, but it least feels comfortable. I might use it as a fake, though. I might back up, switch grip, make my opponent think for a second, and then use that to quickly switch back and attack.

[Vivectius]

And here's where Landen and I disagree.

See here for my response on the subject: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=26455.0

I'll quickly address Landen's points from my own combat training, experience, and philosophy:

Limits your attacks - not so.  It changes them, how and when you attack, and sometimes the angles. If by limit you mean that there are some cuts that are either more difficult or almost impossible, then yes.  But there are also some that are easier and more effective in the reverse grip, so to me it balances out.

Limits your range - technically yes.  For me, on a flat horizontal cut, my reach is about 1.5" less with a reverse grip.  Can an inch and a half make a life or death difference in combat? Heck yes! But if you go into combat not knowing the reach of your blade in any and all grips you choose to use, then you don't deserve to come out alive.

Limits your defense - not so.  The usual argument I hear is that people brace the blade against their arm when blocking, and in the case of a Lightsaber, there goes your arm.  The answer to this is not to brace the blade against your arm, which I've never understood anyway, and not try to block with the reverse grip.  Parry or redirect, yes. Block, not so much.

Limits your disarms - no, I'm at the point where I can take your arm off just fine with a reverse grip, thanks.  And that's with a sword, not a Lightsaber 

Spend an insane amount of time to get good at it - not exactly.  I'm not sure I can explain this very well.  With a traditional grip, you're learning how to use the sword, timing, distance, footwork, etc.  With the reverse grip, you already have all that, what you're learning is how to use the grip. In a way, it's not a separate fighting style, but just another set of techniques within a fighting style.

I use it, usually when I do it's one hand traditional, one hand reverse.  Rarely I'll use both reversed, and it's usually as a defensive measure to force my opponent back a step or two.  The instances when I would use a single blade reverse grip for 100% of a duel are very, very rare. 

[Master Nero Attoru]

I'll keep this as simple and streamlined as possible (since I sometimes get verbose).  Dual wielding and saberstaff are two dramatically different methods, and I haven't yet seen a good way to quickly and efficiently switch between them in a real life duel.  Beyond that, they both have large drawbacks.  When the two sabers are separate, you can have a huge advantage by coordinating their actions to multi-task (for example, attacking and defending simultaneously).  The downside there is that such coordination is incredibly difficult, and even more so if the user hasn't mastered the use of a single saber.  I generally don't recommend two weapons to anyone who doesn't have considerable weapons experience.

Likewise, the saberstaff has its own issues.  It's a really unique and fun weapon to wield, but the limited grip area really minimizes your ability to utilize it like an actual staff.  All the reach and power that a staff excels in is lost in a saberstaff.  Additionally, while it has two blades, I find that they're more of a hindrance than a true benefit.  Since they're connected, it prevents using them in tandem like you would with two separate weapons, so as long as one of them is engaged, the other can't be utilized properly.  At the same time, it's a challenge for the user to avoid harming him or herself with the second blade, which is a distraction you don't want in a fight.

In summary, I generally recommend extensive practice with a single, standard lightsaber before moving to two bladed methods.

[Vivectius]

Sure, because none of the rest of us ever tend to over discuss/explain a subject, especially not in the combat forum, where so much is subjective     .

I'll expand a bit on what I've said in relation to Master Nero's comments.

First, for dual wield, I've said to master using one hand first, then the other hand , and only then work on one in both hands.  I think I should clarify the word master here.  I mean, in Star Wars terms, you've mastered forms 1-5 equally using a saber in each hand.  Which is fitting since Form VI is the one to introduce Jar'Kai anyway.  In my mind, this is the sort of thing that takes years, like 8+ years or so to do, and that's before you begin the coordination training to dual wield.

Here's the biggest coordination issue: your brain tends to react to things using both hands.  Example: you have two sabers, your opponent has one and swings at you with it.  Until you're really trained, you're brain's reaction is to block the saber with both of your sabers, as opposed to blocking with one and attacking the opening with another.  Even when you've been training for a while, your brain will block with one but "forget" to attack with the other.  It takes a lot of practice to get your mind to separate each saber into a separate weapon that can be used independently of the other, AND actually use them independently of each other, and do it at full combat speed without it turning into you just flailing around.  I've studied the video of Master Artorius, and I've got the technique down pretty well.  But he executes it far, far, FAR faster than I can.

The saberstaff, as I've said before is a single bladed weapon.  It's not possible to swing both blades at the same time at a single opponent.  Facing a saberstaff most people think the have to keep track of both blades, but you don't.  Since they're connected, knowing where one is means you automatically know where the other is.  Which is one of the inherently limiting factors of the weapon.  The biggest thing that must be mastered with a saberstaff, other than not cutting yourself with it, is footwork.  Lateral movement using the staff to parry attacks with one blade will give openings to bring the other blade around, and if your opponent blocks that, chances are they're open for a strike from the first blade.

As Master Nero said, master the single blade first.  Then think about the others.

[Master Nero Attoru]

Sure, because none of the rest of us ever tend to over discuss/explain a subject, especially not in the combat forum, where so much is subjective     .

It's so true... we can get a bit chatty, since it's a topic we all nerd out on

We're definitely on the same page though, it's a huge step to try and use two separate weapons effectively.  Utilizing something in each hand for different purposes is unquestionably challenging, and the fact that both items (in this case) happen to be universally cutting energy blades just increases the stakes.  I've reached the point with two weapons where I can mostly avoid killing or maiming myself in a duel, but that's about it.  Like you said, Master Artorius is the real expert in that area.

[Landen Se-Sentien]

It's so true... we can get a bit chatty, since it's a topic we all nerd out on

We're definitely on the same page though, it's a huge step to try and use two separate weapons effectively.  Utilizing something in each hand for different purposes is unquestionably challenging, and the fact that both items (in this case) happen to be universally cutting energy blades just increases the stakes.  I've reached the point with two weapons where I can mostly avoid killing or maiming myself in a duel, but that's about it.  Like you said, Master Artorius is the real expert in that area.

True. If these things were real, I would be a multiple amputee every time I practice my dual wield obi-anis.