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Author Topic: duel weilding/staff  (Read 10296 times)
JdiKnhtJMH
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« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2017, 06:26:08 AM »

My doctoral thesis is going to be titled "You want to use a saberstaff why?"

I'm awful with a saber staff too, despite training with one. I think its just a clumsy weapon unless your main goal is wading into a crowd of poorly armed/trained enemies. Its more of a psyche out than anything. Dual wielding gives all of the advantages of a staff with few of the draw backs, though it still takes more energy and training.
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Westmoore
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« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2017, 09:59:21 AM »

Staff used well DOES have advantages over a single blade
multiple attacks can happen far quicker and from confusing angles making a single bladed fighter have to work twice as fast
we have tested this many times rather than quoting blade instructors from books written by non practitioners
dual wielding does have more freedom but not many people (not all) don't have ambidexterity to train with the weapons effectively BUT
It all comes down to what your more proficient with and should anyone wish to test my opinion on sabre staff do feel free to head to the UK and we can test it out Wink
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« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2017, 01:26:47 PM »

Staff used well DOES have advantages over a single blade
multiple attacks can happen far quicker and from confusing angles making a single bladed fighter have to work twice as fast
we have tested this many times rather than quoting blade instructors from books written by non practitioners
dual wielding does have more freedom but not many people (not all) don't have ambidexterity to train with the weapons effectively BUT
It all comes down to what your more proficient with and should anyone wish to test my opinion on sabre staff do feel free to head to the UK and we can test it out Wink

Saberstaff is not without advantages, it's when you weigh those advantages against the drawbacks that you start to see the weapon's true effectiveness.  Quick attacks from multiple angles aren't outside the realm of a single blade, and while the double bladed saber may have a slight advantage there (mostly due to the leverage from a longer hilt), those elements only tend to be a deciding factor against the less experienced.  You tend to hear the same claim made about various nonstandard lightsaber methods - the unorthodox has some value in being unpredictable, but it's not adequate long term to cement a weapon or style as "effective."
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JdiKnhtJMH
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« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2017, 07:06:54 AM »

Staff used well DOES have advantages over a single blade
multiple attacks can happen far quicker and from confusing angles making a single bladed fighter have to work twice as fast
we have tested this many times rather than quoting blade instructors from books written by non practitioners
dual wielding does have more freedom but not many people (not all) don't have ambidexterity to train with the weapons effectively BUT
It all comes down to what your more proficient with and should anyone wish to test my opinion on sabre staff do feel free to head to the UK and we can test it out Wink

The main thing I've found with the staff is that it can be very unsettling to someone not familiar with its use. If youve never tried to use a staff and someone comes at you with one, it really does look intimidating. It really threw me off the first time I fought someone who was using one. But once I practiced with a staff myself I learned the limitations of it and that helped me be more confident fighting against them. I think understanding the weapon and its use is one of the most important parts of defending against it, and that element of unfamiliarity is one area where a staf really shines.
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Rathayatra
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« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2017, 02:28:44 PM »

In my mind, this is the sort of thing that takes years, like 8+ years or so to do, and that's before you begin the coordination training to dual wield.

      i really have got to get in more practice. at 62 i will be 70. thanks guys.... i love the combat conversation.
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Westmoore
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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2017, 02:37:39 PM »

I do think there needs to be alot more exploration with techniques with the staff as there is so little on it which reduces peoples ability to become familiar with it, both to work with and against
but this is true of all the unorthodox methods they have a short term advantage which i do believe can be extended once there is more workable methodology....need more people to spar with to check things more often....
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obliviondoll
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« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2017, 04:10:50 PM »

Saberstaff has many of the limitations of a real-world staff, but misses some of the benefits of such weapons. For example, on a real staff, every part of the weapon is a point at which you can hold it, giving a potentially enormous amount of reach, which a saberstaff can't replicate.

Dual sabers have basically all the advantages of dual-wielding real swords, and actually diminish some of the disadvantages. Edge alignment is the obvious point here, it's much less of an issue with a lightsaber, but with two swords, it becomes a major concern for inexperienced fighters.

In real life, there are benefits to having either a shield (rare in Star Wars but not unheard of) or a free hand when fighting. The nature of lightsabers as a weapon somewhat diminishes the effectiveness of grappling techniques, simply because grabbing a slow moving metal blade is a valid tactic, while even a powerful Force user considers grabbing a lightsaber blade to be a last-ditch "everything already went wrong" moment. There are some ways to take advantage of having a free hand in a lightsaber duel, but not quite as many as with regular swords. Shields are better, but as mentioned, lightsaber resistant shields (whether energy or exotic materials) are exceptionally rare in the setting.

There are still some advantages to wielding a single weapon. For equal-strength fighters, 2 hands on a single hilt will give you more power and better control when you have a long blade, while one-handed strikes keep your hand free to potentially lock blades then get your free hand onto the opponent's weapon (or to strike them/force push/pull the pin on that grenade on their vest). You can also make a two-handed strike then take your off-hand away from the weapon do do something else in some situations.

All that said, in lightsaber duels, the nature of such fighting is USUALLY such that dual-wielding would be a preferable option, assuming you are proficient in doing so.
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Morgoth136
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« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2017, 10:56:12 AM »

Had my heart set on double-bladed saber but couldn't really and get used to it and that's how I fell in love with using a Yari extension and I can't go back now. I highly recommend trying one to everybody who wants something a little different
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« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2017, 03:07:34 PM »

Had my heart set on double-bladed saber but couldn't really and get used to it and that's how I fell in love with using a Yari extension and I can't go back now. I highly recommend trying one to everybody who wants something a little different

Once I got a few Yari extensions, I became obsessed too!  It's just so fun and different as a saber option.
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Westmoore
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« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2017, 04:35:25 PM »

yari extension between 2 sabers....yummmm Cheesy
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Darth Cephalus
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2017, 10:49:56 PM »

Not a note on practicality in combat, but there is a forum member who posts over in the Artistry section who has been working the quick release to switch like you are talking about. He had some more recent videos up but took them down for some reason. The newest spin wars has a piece of one. He still has one of his first ones up though. It is here.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTATfcgVWUw&amp;t=4s" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTATfcgVWUw&amp;t=4s</a>

What he tends to use is mostly Kali or escrima, inspired by a few other things.
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Therion Jinn
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2017, 11:06:59 PM »

Definitely some useful information in here.
Eventually, it's my intention to dual wield. But, for now, the second blade would likely be acting more as a shield than a second weapon
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Master Nero Attoru
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« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2017, 02:47:07 PM »

Definitely some useful information in here.
Eventually, it's my intention to dual wield. But, for now, the second blade would likely be acting more as a shield than a second weapon

That's more or less the point!  It's difficult, but the best way to utilize two blades is to defend and attack simultaneously.
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James Casey
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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2017, 12:55:42 PM »

Such is my understanding (and I don't pretend to lay claim to anything like the level of knowledge of the Masters!).

Think of the second blade as a shield first and foremost. Plenty of shield bearers can and do use theirs as an offensive weapon in a fight, but its great advantage is being able to block attacks. So too your second blade - deflect with second, parry with second, block with second, stab with first!

Or, discarding weapons altogether, put up your hands like a boxer and think how they distribute their weight. You lead with one hand, guard with the other - no boxer goes at their opponent trying to land a right and left hook at the same time Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2017, 08:49:18 PM »

Now that I have a moment, as someone who does not duel a lot, I may be out of my depth, but as someone who is fairly competent when he does duel and is most comfortable/successful dual wielding, I thought I might weigh in in more detail. Since this conversation has gone mainly towards dual wield, I might have something to contribute. My approach to dual wielding is something I picked up through odd channels. I started dual wielding in spinning with no intention to ever use it in anything like combat. Oddly, as I grew used to the two blades and how they moved, I got more and more comfortable with them. A couple summers ago, I was part of an informal tournament and I decided to try the two weapons just for the flash. The combat application came pretty easy actually. After that, I decided to look into it a bit more. A lot of people look to Kali or escrima. As a fencer by training, I decided to take the HEMA rout. There were a lot of options: sword and buckler, sword and glove, sword and cape, sword and dagger, etc. What I settled on was what is called the case of rapiers. It is the use of two equal sized swords. The source material says to do it, you should be proficient with both hands and equally able to attack or defend. Like Kali, this style stresses equal use rather than a dominant blade and a defending blade. To sum up the basic technique, sure there are simultaneous attacks like Nero mentioned. There are not a lot of simultaneous blocks though. Mostly (when in a forward stance) you use whatever blade is in front in two ways: one as an attacking weapon as you would with a single weapon in fencing, and two as a probe. Any attack that does not land, and block that connects, or any feint that opens up an opportunity, gets exploited by the other weapon. If you are in a middle stance with both weapons forward, you are at more risk. Your target area is bigger and you pretty much have to defend on side since reaching across your body is hard and can get your blades tangled. The plus side is that you are more dangerous as both weapons are leading and reprisals from whichever is not engaged come more swiftly.
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