7 forms: my take with examples

[Darth Cephalus]

This video is a rare attempt on my part to do something in cannon. I was asked by a viewer to put together something like this so I thought I would try. I discuss the 7 forms, what the theory behind them is, and how they translate into real lightsaber use. I also provide examples of what they look like as I see them, and appropriate lightsabers for their practice. I borrowed a few seconds of footage from thunder for the stuff I can't do. I want to stress that my idea of them varies a lot from the scaffolding systems of TPLA or Ludosport.  Y intro states as much and encourages people to remember that all examples of the forms are interpretations.
 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPw7CpgOvmU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPw7CpgOvmU</a>

[scifidude79]

Great breakdown, DC.  Funnily, I just figured you had your own form, codenamed Awesome.    Though, I'm pretty sure you blend forms in your routines, am I correct?

[Darth Cephalus]

I think if pressed into cannon, I would have to say that what I use is Niman. That is the theory I am working with on the tutorial reboot. Niman is a blend of forms, with a non-combat emphasis, making heavy use of force abilities.

[obliviondoll]

I don't think anyone wants to press you into a cannon. That would just be mean.

Also good vid, interesting alternative view on the saber forms.

[pepsiaddict]

Great interpretation. Point for excellent narration.

[skribs]

I like how you explained the difference between Ataru in-universe and what we can use to simulate Ataru in the real world. 

I have an easy time understanding Forms I-IV, but I still have a hard time around V-VII.  My understanding is Form I is just basic movements, while II-IV specialize.  I have a hard time seeing the differences between V, VI, and VII, except that they are all hybrids of previous forms.

I also see VI and VII as largely irrelevant in the real world, if the primary concept behind them is the application of The Force to your Lightsaber style (or vice versa).  IV falls into this trap as well, outside of tricking.  I understand that VI is commonly used for dual-wielding or double-bladed combat, but I also think those don't have to be included in the same line as single-blade forms.  This way of thinking may hold me back a bit.

Maybe you could help me a bit with my lack of understanding the differences or purpose of any form past IV?

[Darth Cephalus]

So basically I reject the idea of scaffolding. This is a point of contention with a lot of people on the forum. When the forms say that they are separate and equal paths, I take that at face value. Sure there is repetition, but I see that as rather techniques that are common to multiple forms rather than there being a form that is a prerequisite to other forms. If it were not so, I would find it hard for there to be a Shii Cho master who is equal in training and ability to a master of another form. In form VI this is a bit hard to grasp, just consider than there is a lot of repetition because there are a lot more basics. For me, they boil down to philosophy. I is about utility. Ulios once described it as clearing a way from one point to another. II is about precision, III is about defense, IV is about movement/agility, V is about offense, IV is about versatility, and VII is about ferocity. As to the last two forms being irrelevant, I disagree. They are just not about scoring a hit on an opponent; at least not primarily.

A real world form 6 master in my mind would be someone with a lot of flow. That means someone who could pick up an opponent's saber that is weighted differently than his own, adjust, and be at least proficient. Likewise, they could pick up a second saber, a staff, a kayak paddle, a frozen fish, etc. VI is all about adjustment and versatility. In cannon, they will be comfortable with and without a saber and well skilled in the force. Also, they will be at least proficient in difference uses f a saber. They can attack with it, defend with it, use it as a tool, dance with it, etc. Their mastery comes with breadth of knowledge rather than extent.

A form 7 master is someone who has the self mastery to create an emotional state and harness it. When we are mad, we get reckless. We also get ferocious and frightening to behold. We take risks with moves and tactics. Think of the historical concept of a berzerker. A form 7 master is not a berzerker; it is someone who is skilled at being able to control when they lose control. To abandon established tactics or adopt them rather than being ruled by them. It is a philosophy more than a series of moves. If anything, it is incorporating impulsiveness and abandoning programing.

[obliviondoll]

I've been thinking about this topic off and on for ages, and tonight, a few thoughts I've had floating around in my head clicked together finally. I had an epiphany. The different lightsaber Forms are not separate schools of lightsaber combat. There is only one lightsaber style in the Star Wars galaxy.

Almost every martial discipline in history has done the same thing lightsaber combat does. I view the various Forms as something akin to different stances within a single cohesive discipline, rather than being independent disciplines or styles in their own right. The sharing of names across all practitioners, both Jedi and Sith, reinforce the impression that all lightsaber combat derives from the same single style, NOT a set of distinct and separate schools. While they share similarities with the concept, calling the Forms "stances" would be a misnomer, since most have multiple applications and stances associated with their core principles. As such, I think referring to them as "postures" or "attitudes" works a little better as a descriptive term for how I view them.

When you look at Form V, it may seem like there's a deviation here, but I think that's an illusory divide. There are two different sub-sets within Form V, but both are about the same overall attitude/posture. You can say it's a hybrid form, taking elements of Forms before it, but I believe that's missing the point. Shien and Djem So are different applications of the same attitude. The purpose of each is the same, it's just a subtle difference in application. When using Form V, the goal is to redirect your opponent's attacks back on themselves. Shien is more about using speed and exploiting openings, while Djem So is about using brute force to create those openings. Shien, as a result, is more effective at responding to blaster fire with precisely-aimed deflections back at the attackers, while Djem So allows its users to deliver powerful strikes against another duelist.

The real split only comes with Form VI and VII. These Forms are less specific in their posture, and in a way, can be seen as a single attitude - flexibility. Both are about the ability to adapt your approach based on the situation. Once again, there's more to them than just that, and they more than any other Form reflect the nature of the Force itself. Forms VI and VII are reflections of the Jedi and the Sith philosophies as a whole. Form VI is about harmony. It's about flow, like Darth Cephalus said. It's about finding the smoothest transitions from one Form into another, and applying those shifts dynamically during the fight. It's also about being in harmony with your opponent, and with the Force itself, and letting those connections guide your blade. Form VII is about defying expectations, both your opponent's and your own. It's about disrupting that harmony Form VI is built on, understanding the flow so well you can break it and keep moving.

[skribs]

That description of Form V actually helps a lot, oblivion.

I guess I can see Form VI techniques as environmental, maybe.  Is that a good way of looking at it?

Form VII still feels like a state of mind more than a set of techniques, and is something that I don't really see transitioning to the real world.  Maybe you can enlighten me.

[obliviondoll]

That description of Form V actually helps a lot, oblivion.

I guess I can see Form VI techniques as environmental, maybe.  Is that a good way of looking at it?

Form VII still feels like a state of mind more than a set of techniques, and is something that I don't really see transitioning to the real world.  Maybe you can enlighten me.

In my mind, both the last 2 forms are philosophical mindsets, rather than specific attitudes toward combat. Form VI (Niman) is about harmony. It's about the Jedi path itself in many ways. It's the use of techniques from the other forms, in a manner that is fluid and natural. It's about gracefully and intuitively using anything, regardless of Form. Form VII (whether Juyo or Vaapad) is about unleashing yourself. It's the saber's expression of the Sith mindset. Like Niman, it's about using whatever motion works, rather than following a specific form. Unlike Niman, it's not about grace or flow, but about DEFYING those things. It's about chaotic and unpredictable action, fueled by emotions.

The nature of Niman being explicitly described as a Form based around combining elements from the other forms means it could have specific techniques of its own. These wouldn't be direct attacks or blocks, but movements that allow smooth and efficient flow between techniques from the Forms before it. Any technique that's specific to Niman will be a transitional movement that leads from a strike or guard in one form into some complementary technique from another. It may be a flourish or minor shift in stance, or it may be a modified version of a technique from one style that allows the action to more fluidly transition into a normally-unconnected technique.

Form VII doesn't seem to have any specific "techniques" or any concepts to create them associated with it. The mindset of Juyo and Vaapad is one of "whatever is needed" - use any Form, or an action without Form, in order to strike the opponent. It's about losing yourself in the emotion, while directing your blade in ways that go against the flow. Where Form VI finds harmony, Form VII is about sustained discordant motion.

Either way, though, both of the last 2 Forms are more about the state of mind than any specific technique or set of techniques. They're expressions of the duelist's mastery of themselves and their weapon. They are the Forms where Form becomes irrelevant. Much like in real martial arts, there comes a time where a student will be forming their own style, drawing from all the things they've learned, and incorporating techniques together in ways that AREN'T how those moves are taught - this level of mastery is what I view both Form VI and VII to represent.

My view of the lightsaber style "skill tree" is one which branches out from the basics of Form I (actually the foundation of all saber combat) into the 5 regular Forms (including Form I proper). From those Forms, you consolidate back down into 1, but there are 2 paths to take. There are rare exceptions, but the Jedi typically end up finding their own variation of Form VI, and Sith are usually drawn to create their own Form VII.

First level:
Form I (basics)

This is not a "true" expression of Form I itself, but the use of that form to teach the fundamentals of saber use.

Second level:
Form I
Form II
Form III
Form IV
Form V

Form I becomes more advanced as one devotes themselves to learning it. While the basics are the same for all Forms, they are taught through Form I because they were created with it. At the second level, the fighter is able to continue learning more advanced Form I techniques, or move to another Form that suits them better.

Third level:

Form VI
Form VII

As mentioned, these are less "Forms" and more expressions of mastery. This is the stage where the saber is not just a tool or a weapon, but an extension of its wielder. A student who defends with Form III and attacks using Form IV is not using Niman or Juyo. They are switching between Soresu and Ataru. A master can fluidly transition from a Soresu-*LIKE* defensive motion into an attack that *RESEMBLES* Ataru. This is Form VI. A master of Form VII will seem less fluid, but their moves will maintain that same sense of constant motion. That contradictory discordant element of unpredictability is something much harder to replicate in most modern martial arts, and it's most like Jeet Kune Do where the goal is simply to do what works, rather than to maintain any particular flow that might be readable by another skilled fighter.

[Darth Cephalus]

What you just described is the tiered approach. It is a perfectly valid interpretation and one used by many groups. I prefer to think of all of them as separate paths with their own basics, intermediary stages, and advanced end goal. There is of course a lot of overlap and skills gained in one form can easily transition to another as the philosophy changes. If you seek utility, precision, stasis, mobility, power, fluidity, or control, you pick the form that matches. Using elements of form 3 in pursuit of the goals of form 6 makes those elements part of form 6 shared with form 3. Form 6 has the most shared components. For me it is all philosophy and the philosophy shapes and necessitates the technique. Consulars are drawn to form 6 not because it is the most useful for them, but because its goals are most in line with their world view and values.

[obliviondoll]

I personally dislike the idea of "tiers" when it's applied to every Form as being a step "above" the one before it (what people tend to call "scaffolding"). In any martial art, there is some tiering in the sense that you learn the basics in a particular way, then branch out, then move to finding your own style incorporating elements of the things you learned before.

The fact that Niman is explicitly described in canon as being the merging of the Forms before it makes it the logical point at which that final step is being taken. It is absolutely possible for a person to truly master only one of the forms between I and V, and to stick to that Form within their mastery. In my view, that makes their mastery of that Form, and ability to adapt its techniques to situations they weren't necessarily intended for, an expression of Form VI or VII in its own way. It's taking what's needed from the previous Forms, and applying them in new ways to maintain a constant flow, making it an expression of Form VI. OR it's taking them and merging them in unpredictable ways to create its wielder's own take on Form VII.

Both the last 2 Forms are about continuous and uninterrupted motion. Both are about building on an established foundation of knowledge of saber use. They're both portrayed in canon as being advanced Forms which you need a grounding in some other Form(s) to achieve. Your own personal style being something of a blend of various Forms makes it a great example of this. You maintain that continuous flow that Niman is known for.

It is entirely possible to achieve a similar flow within a single Form, rather than blurring the lines between them like Niman is known for doing. If you can adapt that Form to do things it "shouldn't" be doing - using techniques from Form I that are intended for multiple opponents to target a single enemy, or adapting a Makashi flourish to deflect blaster shots - then you are taking what you need from a basic Form and turning it into true mastery.

There is an entirely valid argument that EVERY Form is just a mindset rather than a particular style or set of techniques, and as you mentioned, there's a lot of overlap. Form I is a "balanced" Form between defense and attack. There are bound to be techniques which involve parrying and deflecting an opponent's strike. Some of those techniques would also be a part of the mostly-defensive Form III. With Form V being about creating and/or exploiting openings, and retaliating when the opponent attacks, you're once again looking at deflections being part of the order of the day, and that means the same single technique could easily be part of all 3 Forms (and if you count Shien and Djem so separately, arguably 4). When you add Form VI and VII to that, it seems impossible that they wouldn't also incorporate the same techniques. Ataru is the speed/movement focused Form, so it probably has a similar technique for combining a deflection with a quick sidestep or other evasive move. Shien being the speed-based aspect of Form V means it probably uses those same moves in some cases, once again blurring the lines.

This is probably why it's so hard to definitively pin down what Form each fighter uses when watching a lightsaber battle.