Random Thoughts of Members (anything goes...well with in forum rules)

[Infinit01]

I feel like my 4 day weekend was short

[TheDutchman]

I feel like my 4 day weekend was short

You're not the only one 

[PsychoSith]

I feel like my 4 day weekend was short

*grumbles*

Tuesdays are just diet mondays.

[Darth Logos]

I am so perplexed and confounded right now. I watched Knives Out over the weekend. It was good. Better than good, it was great in fact. It was a whodunit with an excellent twist. Written and directed by Rian Johnson. This is where I'm wholly confused. How is someone that capable of writing AND directing a movie (with which I could only pick out 1 minute error  ) fail in such a deplorable manner when doing Star Wars? It's honestly like some douche bag tied up the real RJ, stole his name and appearance to make a bad SW movie, then the real one made a miraculous escape, and we never got to hear about it on the 6:00 news.

[PsychoSith]

I am so perplexed and confounded right now. I watched Knives Out over the weekend. It was good. Better than good, it was great in fact. It was a whodunit with an excellent twist. Written and directed by Rian Johnson. This is where I'm wholly confused. How is someone that capable of writing AND directing a movie (with which I could only pick out 1 minute error  ) fail in such a deplorable manner when doing Star Wars? It's honestly like some douche bag tied up the real RJ, stole his name and appearance to make a bad SW movie, then the real one made a miraculous escape, and we never got to hear about it on the 6:00 news.

Allow me to be disgustingly postitive, as to be expected from me.

Its cuz hes a good director. Even if you didnt like TLJ, generally speaking, his work is good-great in quality. Just look at his accolades on his wiki page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rian_Johnson

Its possible to love an artist without loving every single work he's made. He enjoys making complicated movies that force the audience to think, he doesnt like his audience being comfortable, so his directing decisions for TLJ are quite in character. For me, I like my views even on such things a SW, being challenged, so I quite enjoyed TLJ. I know you and many others however, thought that Star Wars isnt the place for directinal experimentation and forcing viewers out of their comfort zone. Both are valid methods of directing. But thats just my $0.02

[Darth Logos]

Allow me to be disgustingly postitive, as to be expected from me.

Its cuz hes a good director. Even if you didnt like TLJ, generally speaking, his work is good-great in quality. Just look at his accolades on his wiki page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rian_Johnson

Its possible to love an artist without loving every single work he's made. He enjoys making complicated movies that force the audience to think, he doesnt like his audience being comfortable, so his directing decisions for TLJ are quite in character. For me, I like my views even on such things a SW, being challenged, so I quite enjoyed TLJ. I know you and many others however, thought that Star Wars isnt the place for directinal experimentation and forcing viewers out of their comfort zone. Both are valid methods of directing. But thats just my $0.02

You don't understand. It wasn't just the directing, it was the writing as well. Unless he was just too busy fellating KK to actually deviate from the level of crap JJ turned out.

[PsychoSith]

You don't understand. It wasn't just the directing, it was the writing as well. Unless he was just too busy fellating KK to actually deviate from the level of crap JJ turned out.

See I never had much of an issue with the writing in TLJ (or most of the franchise for that matter) Star Wars has *never* had stellar writing.
Arguably if the OT didnt have such a simple plot it would have suffered the same issue. I dont think I have to mention the prequels [but i kind of did ]
Nothing saying this is always true, and I admit I always put the characters on blast because thats what I pay the most attention to in movies typically.
Directors bear a lot of the responsibility for a movie, but I think its unfair to judge one based on only a single film, since even if you think TLJ was a cinematic disaster (which I'd argue) hes pumped out plenty of quality material outside of Star Wars.

[Darth Logos]

See I never had much of an issue with the writing in TLJ (or most of the franchise for that matter) Star Wars has *never* had stellar writing.
Arguably if the OT didnt have such a simple plot it would have suffered the same issue. I dont think I have to mention the prequels [but i kind of did ]
Nothing saying this is always true, and I admit I always put the characters on blast because thats what I pay the most attention to in movies typically.
Directors bear a lot of the responsibility for a movie, but I think its unfair to judge one based on only a single film, since even if you think TLJ was a cinematic disaster (which I'd argue) hes pumped out plenty of quality material outside of Star Wars.

WHATEVER! There used to be a great deal of great writing, and then some dumbass decided I can do it better and dumped it all. The prequels actual had pretty good writing, it was the directing that truly stunk. The ST was just a train wreck from concept to completion. The writing was on the level of a pretentious 7th grader, the direction was akin to I have no friggin clue, and the acting.....I'm just going to blame on a horrible combination of the previous two. Yes director bear a lot of responsibility for a movie, but the chuckleheads that directed each stage of the ST also wrote their respective stages. So it was a lose-lose.

I merely wish he would have put out the same level quality for SW as he did for Knives Out. Had he, it may have ended up being my all time favorite SW movie. That's right, I said it.

[Darth Tepes]

Here is the thing.  Had they decided to set the Sequel Trilogy far enough into the future the OT gang was gone...and RJ made the exact same film but it wasn't Luke...it was another aged Jedi or even Luke's grandson....I bet you it would have gotten a lot less slack.  Imagine they go looking for Jake Skywalker...Great grandson of Grandmaster Luke Skywalker....everyone is going to expect a paragon.  But instead they find a grizzled old hermit pissed off at the universe and his heritage (They kind of did this in the Legacy Comics with Cade Skywalker...who was a Death Stick Addicted Pirate...everyone loved it).  The issue all around with TLJ is....the character assassinated a hero to Three Generations.  I have said before, some of the ideas in TLJ I didnt mind...it was their execution.  It was done with intent to piss people off...for what gain though.  Challenging peoples expectations isn't automatically bad but there is a time and place for it.... the main Star Wars Episodes are not the place for it.  Especially not the second part of as trilogy.  I can't speak for Logos but when I say "The Writing" I am not wholly talking about the dialogue.  I mean the characterizations...and none of them worked in TLJ.

[Saso Is-kor]

It was done with intent to piss people off...for what gain though.

Exactly, the whole purpose was to "subvert our expectations" and subvert them it certainly did.

I like this analogy. You decide to head on over to a wonderful new restaurant that has been getting some pretty good reviews. The head chef is an up-and-comer named Rian Johnson. The establishment's motto is "we subvert your expectations," and that seems to be what makes it so popular. So you go, sit down to eat, and order a burger and fries. You know that your expectations are going to be thrown for a loop and so you expect something different. Maybe the burger meat is something exotic like lamb instead of beef, maybe the fries are made from a special kind of sweet potato, who knows? Finally your food arrives, and it looks pretty delicious. Before the waiter sets down the food in front of you, a wide grin peels up his lips as he mashes the plate of food into your face. Then he removes it, and breaks the plate over your head for good measure. Now you're gazing up at the waiter, dumbstruck, food dripping off your face, and he's wearing that same grin like a badge of honor as he reaches into his apron and hands you the check. Later on you go to the restaurant reviews to leave the most negative review you can think of, only to get negative responses from other customers who exclaim vehemently "you just didn't like it because your expectations got subverted!"

Moral of the story: there is such a thing as taking what people think will happen and turning everything on its head to still have a positive storyline... but not at the expense of obliterating well-established mythos that's been around for 40 years.

But it goes much deeper than that, it's no secret though that Johnson has a kind of "revisionist historian" mindset when it comes to Star Wars. There's even a youtube interview of him saying that he disliked Empire when it came out and that TLJ shouldn't be treated so harshly because Empire was butchered by the critics (it actually wasn't at all), and that audiences hated that Vader was Luke's father. Revising history to suit your own agenda is never cool. The fact that movers and shakers in Disney Star Wars decided to resort to these kind of tactics just to prop up their problematic product is disgusting.

[TheDutchman]

Allow me to be disgustingly postitive, as to be expected from me.

Its cuz hes a good director. Even if you didnt like TLJ, generally speaking, his work is good-great in quality. Just look at his accolades on his wiki page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rian_Johnson

Its possible to love an artist without loving every single work he's made. He enjoys making complicated movies that force the audience to think, he doesnt like his audience being comfortable, so his directing decisions for TLJ are quite in character. For me, I like my views even on such things a SW, being challenged, so I quite enjoyed TLJ. I know you and many others however, thought that Star Wars isnt the place for directinal experimentation and forcing viewers out of their comfort zone. Both are valid methods of directing. But thats just my $0.02

You don't understand. It wasn't just the directing, it was the writing as well. Unless he was just too busy fellating KK to actually deviate from the level of crap JJ turned out.

You're both right: Rian Johnson CAN be a good (even great) director/writer, however...

Exactly, the whole purpose was to "subvert our expectations" and subvert them it certainly did.

I like this analogy. You decide to head on over to a wonderful new restaurant that has been getting some pretty good reviews. The head chef is an up-and-comer named Rian Johnson. The establishment's motto is "we subvert your expectations," and that seems to be what makes it so popular. So you go, sit down to eat, and order a burger and fries. You know that your expectations are going to be thrown for a loop and so you expect something different. Maybe the burger meat is something exotic like lamb instead of beef, maybe the fries are made from a special kind of sweet potato, who knows? Finally your food arrives, and it looks pretty delicious. Before the waiter sets down the food in front of you, a wide grin peels up his lips as he mashes the plate of food into your face. Then he removes it, and breaks the plate over your head for good measure. Now you're gazing up at the waiter, dumbstruck, food dripping off your face, and he's wearing that same grin like a badge of honor as he reaches into his apron and hands you the check. Later on you go to the restaurant reviews to leave the most negative review you can think of, only to get negative responses from other customers who exclaim vehemently "you just didn't like it because your expectations got subverted!"

Moral of the story: there is such a thing as taking what people think will happen and turning everything on its head to still have a positive storyline... but not at the expense of obliterating well-established mythos that's been around for 40 years.

But it goes much deeper than that, it's no secret though that Johnson has a kind of "revisionist historian" mindset when it comes to Star Wars. There's even a youtube interview of him saying that he disliked Empire when it came out and that TLJ shouldn't be treated so harshly because Empire was butchered by the critics (it actually wasn't at all), and that audiences hated that Vader was Luke's father. Revising history to suit your own agenda is never cool. The fact that movers and shakers in Disney Star Wars decided to resort to these kind of tactics just to prop up their problematic product is disgusting.

THIS^^

I've seen reviews where RJ bluntly states he went in subverting not only expectations but also fans' desires.  Couple that with a VERY thin-skinned, insolent attitude and a penchant for blaming others...well, that's how we got TLJ.

[Taegin Roan]

Not going to touch much on TLJ other than to say, I don't think it is a terrible film. It has some poor (to just outright bad) characters, the dialogue is not great, and the story had too many unnecessary sideplots that did not make sense with established anything (science, characters, lore, etc.). That being said, it is not a "bad" movie in the sense that it is poorly made, directed, or really even written. What makes it so terrible is that it is supposed to be a Star Wars movie. Rian Johnson made a Rian Johnson movie not a Star Wars movie, and that's what ruined it.

But the real reason (and I see now as I'm typing this out that it is significantly shorter) is to ask to PsychoSith. Out of curiosity, how much have you studied film making? You know storytelling well, and I'm curious how vast your knowledge is of the Film and Television medium is. Your welcome to PM me if you want so as not to clutter up the topic.

[Darth Tepes]

Not going to touch much on TLJ other than to say, I don't think it is a terrible film. It has some poor (to just outright bad) characters, the dialogue is not great, and the story had too many unnecessary sideplots that did not make sense with established anything (science, characters, lore, etc.). That being said, it is not a "bad" movie in the sense that it is poorly made, directed, or really even written. What makes it so terrible is that it is supposed to be a Star Wars movie. Rian Johnson made a Rian Johnson movie not a Star Wars movie, and that's what ruined it.

This is the crux of it.^   You can't judge a Star Wars film the same way you would judge any other film.  Both SW and The MCU are unique in that they are large encompassing film series....not just sequels but interconnected parts.  I've seen a lot of people judge Avengers: Endgame poorly because they said they didn't know what was going on....because they thought they could just jump into the MCU there.  As inferiror as I find the prequels they still fit into the SW universe.  You can watch EP I through EP VI and (with small exceptions) feel like its a cohesive story.  But once you get to TLJ it comes to a grinding halt.
       When the spoilers started coming out for TLJ...I was a bit confounded.  Then I finally got to see it and.....I went through the stages of grief...but I stopped at anger.   I was willing to give RJ the benefit of the doubt...that he just made his film and it didn't mesh well.  No reason to get angry at the man....until his and KK's campaign against the fans began.  That I can not nor will I tolerate.  Standing by your creation is one thing... insulting and berating everyone who dislikes it shows a juvenile mind and an arrogant personality.   A film can be well made but still be bad...its all on what your looking for.    Prime Example for me personally which I have stated before is Lord of the Rings.  As films they are masterpieces...as adaptations of Tolkien's work they fail in many places.  End of the day...even if you could say TLJ was a good film...its not a good Star Wars film. 

[PsychoSith]

WHATEVER! There used to be a great deal of great writing, and then some dumbass decided I can do it better and dumped it all. The prequels actual had pretty good writing, it was the directing that truly stunk. The ST was just a train wreck from concept to completion. The writing was on the level of a pretentious 7th grader, the direction was akin to I have no friggin clue, and the acting.....I'm just going to blame on a horrible combination of the previous two. Yes director bear a lot of responsibility for a movie, but the chuckleheads that directed each stage of the ST also wrote their respective stages. So it was a lose-lose.

I merely wish he would have put out the same level quality for SW as he did for Knives Out. Had he, it may have ended up being my all time favorite SW movie. That's right, I said it.

Thats gonna be a HARD disagree from me. Palpatines plan was a loony-tunes episode at best, we had to have secondary content to explain who Sifo-Dyas was, everyone just *accepts* the clone army without questioning why a Jedi who was missing paid for a standing army, and the whole thing cruxed on Anakin having like three seperate temper tantrums. You might call TLJ pretentious, but Ill take pretntious every day over Obi-Wan just glossing over that a missing Jedi somehow dumped the funds to pay for an army for the republic that noone ever knew about or Palpatine hinging his entire plan on a moody teenager who if at multiple points just decided to take the high road would have de-railed his whole plan.  The suspension of disbelief is held by a string at best.

The issue all around with TLJ is....the character assassinated a hero to Three Generations.

Ive said why before but I stil highly disagree that the characterization qualified as "assassination" A different and even uncomfortable take on Luke was refreshing, I thought. And sensible given what that version of Luke had gone through. I like flawed human beings, not a cardboard cutout of a hero. People change, and not always for the better.

Not going to touch much on TLJ other than to say, I don't think it is a terrible film. It has some poor (to just outright bad) characters, the dialogue is not great, and the story had too many unnecessary sideplots that did not make sense with established anything (science, characters, lore, etc.). That being said, it is not a "bad" movie in the sense that it is poorly made, directed, or really even written. What makes it so terrible is that it is supposed to be a Star Wars movie. Rian Johnson made a Rian Johnson movie not a Star Wars movie, and that's what ruined it.

But the real reason (and I see now as I'm typing this out that it is significantly shorter) is to ask to PsychoSith. Out of curiosity, how much have you studied film making? You know storytelling well, and I'm curious how vast your knowledge is of the Film and Television medium is. Your welcome to PM me if you want so as not to clutter up the topic.

Truthfully not a lot. I enjoy stories. Always have since I was tiny. I like/love getting into things like character motivations and what they do for a story. Never taken a class, theres certainly people more knowledgeable than me, but storytelling doesnt have to be a method or equation, sometimes you have to feel that sort of thing out, and I love doing just that. I watch movies and I think about what I like and what i didnt, and thats what I talk about. I might not be ready to give a cultural analysis on the impact of Citizen Kane, but I know what I like about Star Wars, and I like talking about it

[bigBear]

I think what they all missed is we had a ton of books that made Luke a great Jedi master. we read those books to take in anything Star Wars, that left an impression on the fans. we went in with that perception if they would have played on our perceptions would have changed everything. the flaw is Disney or who ever you wish to blame thought the moment they said EU isn't cannon that it was wiped from our minds.