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Author Topic: Light vs Dark force abilities  (Read 2719 times)
Darth_Solidus
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« on: April 15, 2017, 01:22:31 AM »

So, I am of the mind that there are no "good" or "bad" force powers. As far as the Jedi saying things like force lighting is a forbidden power, I say it's all in the context of how the power is used. If you use lighting to torture or kill and opponent, that is from the dark side, where as if you used lightning to subdue or kill an enemy that was about to slaughter innocent people, that power is being used to protect people. I just wanted to see if anyone had similar thoughts or thinks I'm a complete fool. I welcome debate!
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scifidude79
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2017, 01:38:14 PM »

Similarly, Force choke is allegedly a "Dark side" power, but then Luke did it in ROTJ.  Though, Luke also had unusual training.  But, then he also had to have learned the technique somewhere, and we weren't shown the entirety of his training under Yoda.  So, did Yoda teach him how to do it?  If so, is it really a "bad" ability?  I mean, he used it against Gamorreans, who aren't exactly known for being a nice species overall.  And, he was in a gangster's den filled with bad people, trying to rescue his friends, so he was doing good.  So, I think, as you said, the use of the power determines if it's good or bad.  In that instance, choking those Gamorreans was the best way to get to Jabba, who he needed to get to in order to pull off his rescue.  In that instance, I think using Force choke isn't bad, it was more necessary.

One of the "Light side" powers that Sith allegedly can't use is healing.  Well, that's just stupid, in my opinion.  How would a Sith be expected to recover from injuries?  Just tough it out?  Use normal methods?  What if a Sith was dying, would he/she not try to extend his/her own life by going into a healing trance?  I would think so.  It makes sense to teach these abilities to a Sith.

So, in my opinion, putting Force powers into the categories of "light" and "dark" or, more to the point, "good" and "bad" is just silly.  After all, if a Jedi is in a fight for their life, all bets are off.  If they're being attacked and trying to survive, they may do so by throwing Force lighting at someone, or Force choking them, just as a Sith may use healing techniques to continue living.  Besides, if you look at a power like Force lightning next to something that Jedi use, such as Force push, is it really any worse?  I can electrocute you, but I can also use the Force to hurl a giant bolder at you and crush you, or throw you off a cliff.  Either way, you're dead.

Anyway, that's my take on it.  No good or bad powers, just the use of the power determines how good or bad someone is.
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Obese Wan Kenobese
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2017, 07:02:18 PM »

There are examples of lightning being used by those who are considered 'light'. It is considered an exception. Mara Jade was once dark, but still used lightning when needed after turning light.

There are powers that involve a mental state to use them. Jedi typically use calm, focus and training. Sith typically use fear, anger and training. The development of the powers are usually faster for Sith, but most Sith don't develop as far as Jedi. At least, that's what I see in Legends story lines mostly. Darth Scourge in Revan was surprised by the abilities of Jedi. The best knowledge is hidden by master Sith.

Luke was toying on the edge of dark temptation in ROTJ.

Someone on the forums mentioned a Sith is never unarmed. In the book Ahsoka, it is stated that Jedi are never unarmed.

The dark and light are perhaps beyond the full comprehension of the dogma of Sith and Jedi passed on over the generations. The training is a guide toward understanding. Perhaps lightning can be made via focus and a more scientific approach, rather than through hatred. Perhaps squeezing a wind pipe can be done without anger. But, anger has an affect on force use spelled out clearly in books. And dark side use has an affect on the user's perceptions spelled out repeatedly in books, comics and exemplified in Anakin's treatment toward Padme, his very reason for choosing the dark side first out of fear of losing love, then hate and paranoia because she disagreed with him.
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ithekro
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2017, 09:55:19 AM »

It is clear that Palpatine used some sort of healing on Vader on Mustifar.  He even gave more of less the same touch to the head that Obi-wan gave to Luke on Tatooine.
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2017, 03:17:18 PM »

I see certain abilities being considered unfair or immoral. Such as how people can use the Force to turn off or snatch a lightsaber out've somebodys hand. But in my mind, regardless of where you are on the Force Spectrum, its a fight that means life or death. I would use any means necessary.
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 06:20:36 PM »

So, I am of the mind that there are no "good" or "bad" force powers. As far as the Jedi saying things like force lighting is a forbidden power, I say it's all in the context of how the power is used. If you use lighting to torture or kill and opponent, that is from the dark side, where as if you used lightning to subdue or kill an enemy that was about to slaughter innocent people, that power is being used to protect people. I just wanted to see if anyone had similar thoughts or thinks I'm a complete fool. I welcome debate!
For the most part I am with this mentality. However, I believe there are some abilities that only spring from certain emotional states. It has long been held that Force Lightning (predominantly Sith) is a manifestation of one's hatred. But there were cases in the OC where Jedi had similar manifestations of green lightning stemming from feelings of "supreme justice" which to me would just be a "hatred of injustice".

Over the last few years, I have developed the idea that Force abilities are expressions of one's emotions. The so called "Dark Side" is predominated with very powerful negative emotional states: hatred, fear, anger, jealousy. Just as prolonged exposure to these emotions damage the body, mind and spirit, so too does the Dark Side.

It is clear that Palpatine used some sort of healing on Vader on Mustifar.  He even gave more of less the same touch to the head that Obi-wan gave to Luke on Tatooine.
One of the "Light side" powers that Sith allegedly can't use is healing.  Well, that's just stupid, in my opinion.  How would a Sith be expected to recover from injuries?  Just tough it out?  Use normal methods?  What if a Sith was dying, would he/she not try to extend his/her own life by going into a healing trance?  I would think so.  It makes sense to teach these abilities to a Sith.
It is highly unlikely as it has long been believed that the Dark Side cannot heal, only destroy. However, keeping with the OC, Sidious may have learned part of Plagueis' technique for sustaining life. IMO, that was the weakest plot point in the book. Plagueis' experiments were referred to as "the ones he loved". He would bring subjects to the edge of death in order to try to bring them back, but it never really explained how this was achieved. It focused mainly on the rise and succession of Sidious, and the beginnings of the Clone Army.

Vader may also have been sustaining himself with pure rage. A similar instance was written for how Darth Malgus survived his battle with Satele Shan on Alderaan.

Similarly, Force choke is allegedly a "Dark side" power, but then Luke did it in ROTJ.
Jog my memory, when does Luke choke a ho?

The limiting factor of the Jedi is ideology. For the same reason they wouldn't use synth crystals, is why they wouldn't use certain techniques. They believed it was a path to "easy power". I believe this was the path to their eventual undoing. Instead of embracing that emotions are a natural part of a being, they preached subjugation of emotions all for the removal of the negative, (Ever seen Equilibrium, same thing) and the results were beyond what they could handle.

There are powers that involve a mental state to use them. Jedi typically use calm, focus and training. Sith typically use fear, anger and training. The development of the powers are usually faster for Sith, but most Sith don't develop as far as Jedi. At least, that's what I see in Legends story lines mostly. Darth Scourge in Revan was surprised by the abilities of Jedi. The best knowledge is hidden by master Sith.
This is also true. Many Sith masters retained the greatest of their knowledge to themselves, and if they left it behind for future generations, they typically did so with well hidden/guarded holocrons. This was to ensure that only the most worthy would be capable of claiming this power for themselves.

The Sith also had a habit of training by fire. Nothing motivates better than survival. And although Bane mandated the Rule of Two, he was inspired by Revan's premise that training multiple apprentices would inevitably lead to a strong master being usurped by lesser successors resulting in (a) the loss of knowledge and (b) infighting among lesser Sith for the right to lead.

Quote
Someone on the forums mentioned a Sith is never unarmed. In the book Ahsoka, it is stated that Jedi are never unarmed.
I am honored to be more or less quoted. Grin And no, I haven't read the book, but undoubtedly the author is of the same mindset: One who wields the Force is never unarmed.

Quote
The dark and light are perhaps beyond the full comprehension of the dogma of Sith and Jedi passed on over the generations. The training is a guide toward understanding. Perhaps lightning can be made via focus and a more scientific approach, rather than through hatred. Perhaps squeezing a wind pipe can be done without anger. But, anger has an affect on force use spelled out clearly in books. And dark side use has an affect on the user's perceptions spelled out repeatedly in books, comics and exemplified in Anakin's treatment toward Padme, his very reason for choosing the dark side first out of fear of losing love, then hate and paranoia because she disagreed with him.
What's the difference between choking to the point of strangulation and choking out (as in a sleeper hold)? I would say it's the same basic technique, the only difference is the mindset: subdue or eliminate?

I see certain abilities being considered unfair or immoral. Such as how people can use the Force to turn off or snatch a lightsaber out've somebodys hand. But in my mind, regardless of where you are on the Force Spectrum, its a fight that means life or death. I would use any means necessary.
That would be the greatest difference between Jedi and Sith. A Sith accepts the truth that "all is fair in love and war." But then the historical ends of individual Sith and Jedi differ greatly. Traditionally, Sith do not continue as part of Force as Jedi do. This probably explains their fixation on immortality. Whereas Jedi (of all things) accept that death is merely another stage of life.

Crossing genres, I've always loved this quote.

"It is an undeniable, and may I say fundamental quality of man, that when faced with extinction, EVERY alternative is preferable." -Dr. Leonard Church, Director of Project Freelancer.

Jedi prefer not to sacrifice their values/integrity for the sake of convenience or survival. Like when Windu had Sidious dead to rights, although Anakin foolishly (and regretfully) argued executing him would not be the Jedi way, Mace understood what kind of monster "cowered" before him, and that the greater good would be served by his immediate death. And we all know how the rest of it played out...

What I would really like to see in a story, is the Force acting through a Jedi in a way that counters the Code, for the means to a destined end.
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2017, 06:30:25 PM »

To a certain extent, I agree - there is some definite middle ground where you could see techniques being exchanged.  For instance, Telekinesis has many different applications which are considered neutral, but Grip is one that is associated with the Dark Side.  To me, that power would fall under the category of Dark Side when used in certain ways, such as Vader's tendency to punish others around him.  However, using it to a lesser extent, for instance to immobilize (physically) a violent being strikes me as a more neutral or Light Side variant.

Lightning is a little less ambiguous, so in that case I'd say that it depends on how you're creating it.  The traditional lightning that you see Palpatine use in ROTJ (which became a staple of the Dark Side) is said to be generated using dark emotions such as anger and hate.  The user would channel his or her malice into physical form, and conduct it in arcs toward their enemy.  I think that sounds like a pretty cut and dry example of the Dark Side, but I could see some arguments for VERY specific instances of Light Side usage.  People like to mention Plo Koon and Luke Skywalker as examples here, but I'm not sure those two are viable sources to rely on.  Plo Koon's ability was a video game mechanic (Jedi Power Battles), and Luke's abilities are a bit atypical due to his immense power as the Chosen One (being Anakin's son).

So ultimately, I can see where a power could be used for good or evil purposes, but I think it's also important to consider how the ability is manifested in the first place.  If it is brought from a dark place, perhaps it's not as harmless as we would think.
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skribs
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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2017, 04:56:38 PM »

There's a book I read a long time ago called Eyes of Silver.  Now, I'm not even going to try to remember the names of the factions, but you basically had 2 different religions:  Religion A believed that it was perfectly okay to use magic to augment people, but absolutely perverse to use magic to augment inanimate objects.  Religion B believed is was perfectly okay to use magic to augment objects, but absolutely profane to use magic to augment people.  So you had one faction who would basically cast a lot of buffs on themselves, and another faction who primarily had powerful armor, vehicles, and artifacts they would use in battle.  This discussion reminded me of that book.

Anyway, I believe that the way the Force seems to work, especially in video games (so take this opinion with an extra grain of salt) is that Light Side powers are generally defensive, utilitarian, or beneficial in nature, while Dark Side powers are generally selfish, destructive, and impulsive in nature.  A Jedi would use the Force to save others, to defend himself, or to provide a service for those that need it.  A Sith would use the Force to destroy, punish, or to gain power.

To look at the examples brought up in the thread already:

1) Force Lightning - in the book series Animorphs, the Andalites (the good aliens) had lasers that would instantly disintegrate their target, but the Yeerks (bad aliens) had lasers that would slowly tear the target apart, which was specifically designed that way in order to be a more painful death.  So tell me, with regards to Force Lightning - what would a Jedi be able to do with Force Lightning that they could not accomplish with other Force Powers?  Force Lightning seems to only serve to add pain to what could be done with Telekinesis or be done quicker with a Lightsaber.

2) Force Choke - you'll notice a very different approach in the Force Choke used by Vader vs. the one used by Luke on the Gamorrean Guards.  Vader used Force Choke as a dominant display of power, whereas Luke used his to subdue the guards and gain entrance.  There's a big difference between the Sheriff in a western hanging someone in the public square as retribution for their crimes (Vader) vs. a spy using a sleeper hold to non-lethally incapacitate a guard.

3) Force Healing - generally, healing is considered a light side power, especially in video games, because heals are beneficial in nature.  To look at it from another genre, most RPGs with Shadow and Holy magic feature healing spells primarily or exclusively in the Holy school.   I could see a Sith using healing powers for a few reasons, however:
  • To heal themselves out of pure rage at whoever defeated them and caused their injury in the first place.
  • To heal an apprentice, master, or close friend either because of their emotional bond with the other person, because they know they will need the other person to accomplish their goals, or (in the case of a master healing an apprentice) because of the power of the apprentice and/or time spent on that apprentice.
  • To heal those they want reliant on them.  For example, healing a man who has information they need, healing a powerful nobleman who will be in their debt, or healing people in a remote village to become their god.

I think it all comes down to that Jedi powers are about bringing peace and harmony, while Sith powers are about bringing order and victory.  A Jedi will seek to be of service to those who need it, while a Sith will seek to have others serve him.  Force Healing provides a service, while Force Lightning and Force Choke were generally torture devices used to bend someone to your will.

Here is what I imagine the "lock and load" montage would be for a Jedi vs. a Sith:

A Jedi would prepare for combat in meditation, to provide Force Barriers for himself and to provide buffs for the party or the army.  In this way, a Jedi would remain centered, in control of their emotions, and have powerful "magic" armor to repel force attacks and to bring themselves up.  It also means a group of Jedi, specializing in different meditative boons, would have a multiplicative effect on each other.  To put it into RPG terms, if one Jedi has a +STR buff, one has a +AGI buff, one has a +DEF buff, then having all 3 together means not only do you get 3 fighters instead of 1, but each fighter is made stronger by the buffs from the other two.

A Sith, on the other hand, would prepare for combat in a typical lock-and-load montage.  They would put on their saber.  They'd grab a backup weapon, such as a hidden dagger, to use as a surprise if they are disarmed.  They would hurl objects around with telekenis and practice Force Lightning.  They would make sure they have all their weapons available.

This is part of why I think a Sith Apprentice will beat a Jedi Padawan, but a Jedi Master will defeat a Sith Master.  The ways of the Sith are easy to learn, but nearly impossible to refine, as they are fuelled by emotion.  A Sith basically levels up in power and gains combat experience, but they are never in control enough to truly master their skills.  A Jedi, on the other hand, starts off reigning in their power, but as they learn how to control their power, the amount of power they wield with control becomes greater.
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