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Author Topic: TPLA's 'Myths, Lies, and Video Games': Ep. 2: Reverse Grip  (Read 9839 times)
Darth Sabre
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« on: June 10, 2017, 06:14:32 AM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zfFT2-BP5o" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zfFT2-BP5o</a>
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obliviondoll
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« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2017, 03:16:30 PM »

You keep needing to make videos on this topic because you keep failing to address the key points. You keep relying on the preconceptions of people who have never learned how (or more importantly, WHEN) to properly use a reverse grip. You keep dismissing it because you don't know how it works, and because it's unfamiliar. You don't come close to addressing its benefits, because you don't know what they are. You learn to fight in ways that favour your techniques, and try to use an unfamiliar technique in scenarios it wasn't intended for.

You're creating an artificially-biased playing field on which to compare the reverse grip against a standard grip. The reverse grip IS absolutely a situational technique with limited applications, but it is very effective in the right hands AND THE RIGHT TIME. When used appropriately, it can give its user an advantage over the standard grip, but since you don't know how to use it, you're never seeing what it actually does, why, or how.

A particularly noteworthy moment is the part in the video where you pretended that having an opponent isn't a thing that happens. That's got to be a new low in terms of instructional videos about lightsabers. It's really, REALLY funny to see, but it has no place in a serious instructional video. You demonstrate a good 2-handed grip with one hand reversed. You explain, quite clearly, that it allows you to get extra leverage, then pretend that has no use. I think the best part is that the extra leverage afforded by that grip is actually MORE useful in a lightsaber duel than with metal blades. You literally forgot that a lightsaber duel involves more than one person armed with a lightsaber.
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scifidude79
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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2017, 03:46:19 PM »

The problem is, people become stuck in their ways.  You've got people who have been doing martial arts for years and who are masters in certain styles.  So, they're going to look at something that's foreign to what they do and say, "it won't work."

You keep needing to make videos on this topic because you keep failing to address the key points. You keep relying on the preconceptions of people who have never learned how (or more importantly, WHEN) to properly use a reverse grip. You keep dismissing it because you don't know how it works, and because it's unfamiliar. You don't come close to addressing its benefits, because you don't know what they are. You learn to fight in ways that favour your techniques, and try to use an unfamiliar technique in scenarios it wasn't intended for.

You're creating an artificially-biased playing field on which to compare the reverse grip against a standard grip. The reverse grip IS absolutely a situational technique with limited applications, but it is very effective in the right hands AND THE RIGHT TIME. When used appropriately, it can give its user an advantage over the standard grip, but since you don't know how to use it, you're never seeing what it actually does, why, or how.

A particularly noteworthy moment is the part in the video where you pretended that having an opponent isn't a thing that happens. That's got to be a new low in terms of instructional videos about lightsabers. It's really, REALLY funny to see, but it has no place in a serious instructional video. You demonstrate a good 2-handed grip with one hand reversed. You explain, quite clearly, that it allows you to get extra leverage, then pretend that has no use. I think the best part is that the extra leverage afforded by that grip is actually MORE useful in a lightsaber duel than with metal blades. You literally forgot that a lightsaber duel involves more than one person armed with a lightsaber.

That's exactly the issue right there.  As many people have pointed out in their video comments, characters like Ahsoka Tano and Starkiller use it, but not all the time.  They don't seem to acknowledge that.  The TPLA premise that it's wrong seems to be built around an incorrect assumption that it's being used constantly in a battle, as opposed to only using it at certain times.
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Darth Nonymous
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2017, 06:34:14 PM »


Actually, we keep addressing  this issue because the same arguments keep coming up. Like the ones you bring up. We actually do address all of those things (limited use, characters switching as soon as they do one strike etc.) and no one seems to acknowledge that. In fact my entire point here was that you have an opponent in real life and if you are holding your saber reverse grip, you are at a huge disadvantage for all the reason in the video. You wont get just one slash and they are done. You need to parry and move after the blow and you can't do that well with reverse grip.

We await your video demonstrating its proper use in free play with lightsabers.
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Darzik
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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2017, 07:04:53 PM »

Every single time someone argues that reverse grip works for short or long sword dueling they typically fall into the same two fallacies. #1 They say Ahsoka and Starkiller used it. Those are fictional characters. The argument is null. #2 They claim we don't have the proper experience therefore are not qualified to actually say that reverse grip doesn't work in short and long sword dueling. They are incorrect. Our experiences are vast,  we're certified weapon  instructors and we prove it by offering in person meetups.

Last point: When these people are asked to post their videos of reverse grip actually working against another skilled swordsman either suddenly get quite or make excuse... So far VERY few have accepted the challenge. The ONE guy that posted a video.... failed miserably AND against a novice.

I say again.... we await your video with great antici................pation.
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The Gathering of Sabers
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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2017, 07:15:18 PM »

http://youtu.be/oiUDtl8TdG0
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The Gathering of Sabers
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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2017, 07:18:57 PM »

https://youtu.be/-d1BrZj1Ngk
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The Gathering of Sabers
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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2017, 09:12:59 PM »

Every single time someone argues that reverse grip works for short or long sword dueling they typically fall into the same two fallacies. #1 They say Ahsoka and Starkiller used it. Those are fictional characters. The argument is null. #2 They claim we don't have the proper experience therefore are not qualified to actually say that reverse grip doesn't work in short and long sword dueling. They are incorrect. Our experiences are vast,  we're certified weapon  instructors and we prove it by offering in person meetups.

To elaborate on that, we have certified instructors in Chinese, German, Japanese, and Filipino sword arts, and that's not counting the various other weapon styles that come along with those arts.  I like to give an argument the benefit of the doubt, but when a sampling of instructors that diverse all unanimously agrees on a point... it's pretty convincing to me.

At any rate, you know I have no use for the reverse grip, because I'm a fencer.  Even if it were allowed in my sport, the lack of range and control would ensure that anyone using it would be soundly defeated.
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scifidude79
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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 04:08:35 AM »

Heh, I just build sabers, I don't actually fight with them.  So, if several martial arts masters are saying it won't work, I'll just have to take your word for it.  If anyone has a video showing a reverse grip in action, I'd like to see it too.  I can find a few videos with swords on YouTube, but I can't speak to its actual effectiveness.  In one, the guy looked like he was trying to make it work against someone using a standard grip, but was struggling.

Though, in Clone Wars, you do mostly just see Ahsoka block blaster bolts in the reverse grip.  She usually switches to a standard grip for fighting opponents with lightsabers, I think.  Starkiller doesn't really do much in the reverse grip, just stand there.  Why?  I don't know.  It's unlikely that animators or video game programmers are martial arts masters, so they probably just do whatever they think looks cool.  It's like the choreographed fights in movies that basically use moves that look cool, whether or not they're really effective.  I do have military training in firearms, and seeing some of the stuff people allegedly do with guns in movies makes me laugh, given that most of it wouldn't actually work.  Unfortunately, though, that's the biggest example most people have, what they see in movies.
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Darth Sabre
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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 04:29:12 AM »

You keep needing to make videos on this topic because you keep failing to address the key points.
 (...)
When used appropriately, it can give its user an advantage over the standard grip, but since you don't know how to use it, you're never seeing what it actually does, why, or how.

As a learner, I must say one argument strikes home for me: nobody says the reverse grip can't work ... but most times there seems to be a better option. I have to think of High Jump: yes, you can enter a competition jumping lesser heights with your feet first and make it. But the risk is higher than using the Fosbury Flop instead. What would be the reasons to still do it, I wonder?

The points made by Darth Nonymous are out there, and they sound convincing to me (and, as nobody has yet called in doubt a specific argument here yet, it seems not only to me ;-) ); but from your view, there seem to be 'key points' missing here in the analysis. Again, from a learner's perspective, what are those key points you have mentioned?
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Master Althalus
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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 07:28:09 AM »

The first thing that's making the Reverse Grip impractical at best, is the necessity to change grips. In a full-speed freeplay, changing grips is risky - it's a wasted tempo. Do it outside measure and you lose any benefit of surprise, inside measure you're likely to get hit.

But then, the no-thrust rule is a limit here, also. I've been hit only once by an opponent using the Reverse Grip - with an overhand thrust that just passed by my parry and hit me in the arm. I don't want to start a discussion about thrusting in this thread, but if talking about the soundness of a certain technique, one has to include ALL possible applications, IMHO.

Another possible application of the Reverse Grip (and one I know from Krabbi Krabang) is fighting at close quarters, especially with groups fighting each other. It's a totally different scenario than fighting a duel on open ground.

So, in my opinion, the Reverse Grip is useless: in a 1:1 duel on open ground without thrusts.


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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2017, 11:59:10 AM »

Though, in Clone Wars, you do mostly just see Ahsoka block blaster bolts in the reverse grip.  She usually switches to a standard grip for fighting opponents with lightsabers, I think.  Starkiller doesn't really do much in the reverse grip, just stand there.  Why?  I don't know.  It's unlikely that animators or video game programmers are martial arts masters, so they probably just do whatever they think looks cool.  It's like the choreographed fights in movies that basically use moves that look cool, whether or not they're really effective.  I do have military training in firearms, and seeing some of the stuff people allegedly do with guns in movies makes me laugh, given that most of it wouldn't actually work.  Unfortunately, though, that's the biggest example most people have, what they see in movies.

Definitely a good point, it's used more for cinematic purposes.  Filmmakers and the like often try to use visual cues to indicate the skill of a swordsman, and the unorthodox reverse grip is sometimes employed to show a greater level of skill.  In Ahsoka's case, I think it was initially intended to set her apart from other Jedi, give her something visually unique.

Another example of a particular grip being used to show skill is the fight in ESB.  Vader uses one hand for most of the fight, to demonstrate that he far outclasses Luke at that point.  To a casual viewer, using one hand (in a situation where most people use two) is indicative of great skill.  Compare that to his fight in ANH with Obi-Wan, where they both used two handed center stances throughout the fight.
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scifidude79
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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 01:36:21 PM »

What's your guys' opinion of this?  These guys definitely aren't fictional:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt9iUNdgfZA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt9iUNdgfZA</a>


It seems there may be some styles of sword fighting that use a reverse grip.  Of course, to the untrained eye, it looks like it would be a working style.  I did notice that they have both hands on the hilt, which of course isn't how you see the reverse grip used in a fictional setting.  But, to me, it seems like it could work, though I already admitted I don't have martial arts training.  You guys can see what I'm not seeing, as in what is wrong with the style.  I would think the second hand would at least address some of the issues Darth Nonymous brought forth in the video.  Anyway, I'd like your guys' analysis of it.  This isn't an argument, I'm just curious as to what you think.

Another example of a particular grip being used to show skill is the fight in ESB.  Vader uses one hand for most of the fight, to demonstrate that he far outclasses Luke at that point.  To a casual viewer, using one hand (in a situation where most people use two) is indicative of great skill.  Compare that to his fight in ANH with Obi-Wan, where they both used two handed center stances throughout the fight.


I also thought Vader was sort of mocking Luke at first.  Of course, once Luke showed he had much more skill than Vader thought, he had to switch to a two handed grip and use the Force more.
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Master Nero Attoru
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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2017, 02:02:18 PM »

The above video has to be taken with a bit of context.  This form is definitely based on a situational idea, and begins with the drawing of the sword.  I'm no expert in Japanese sword styles, but taking this into account I would imagine this is some variant of iaijutsu/battojutsu.  That martial art in particular focuses on the drawing of the katana, as well as the immediate combat once the blade is out.  Thus, there are some uses of reverse grip for drawing the weapon, and there would likely be little opportunity immediately afterwards to switch to another grip.  Again, this isn't a primary combat style, but a situational one.
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scifidude79
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2017, 02:37:42 PM »

The above video has to be taken with a bit of context.  This form is definitely based on a situational idea, and begins with the drawing of the sword.  I'm no expert in Japanese sword styles, but taking this into account I would imagine this is some variant of iaijutsu/battojutsu.  That martial art in particular focuses on the drawing of the katana, as well as the immediate combat once the blade is out.  Thus, there are some uses of reverse grip for drawing the weapon, and there would likely be little opportunity immediately afterwards to switch to another grip.  Again, this isn't a primary combat style, but a situational one.

Got it, thanks for the analysis.  Unfortunately, though, that's the kind of thing that makes some people go, "Look, it works."  That's why I was curious what you thought of it.  It seems like there would definitely be less moves you could do like that, and there aren't even as many ready positions.
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