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Author Topic: We are Gray...  (Read 17568 times)
Karmack
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« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2017, 08:00:05 PM »

There will be a new story soon.  I already know where I'm going.  :-)
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OAK1971
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« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2017, 09:22:17 PM »

Did not Dave Filoni say no Grey Jedi there are?  Presumptuous you are perhaps?
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Karmack
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« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2017, 09:39:05 PM »

Hmm.....

Karmack is a force user, who generally follows a philosophy that is different than the "Orthodox" Jedi.  Specifically, his Order teaches that the force is just another part of nature, a source of power that some beings are capable of accessing due to specific biological reasons.  What those reasons are cannot be easily quantified, but they do exist.

Where a Jedi (and a Sith, for that matter) would look to the force almost as a god (similar to deism...) Karmack views God as separate from the force, and its Creator.  But this would only be one form of "gray".

Now, whether Grays ever get into the canon?  I guess Dave Filoni would have more to say about that than I...  :-) 
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« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2017, 10:33:53 PM »

Did not Dave Filoni say no Grey Jedi there are?  Presumptuous you are perhaps?

I think he did, but I think what Karmack is getting at with his "gray", is that they are not light, and they are not dark. They are "the ones in the middle."
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"Confronting fear is the Destiny of a Jedi" - Luke Skywalker
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Lord_S_Gray
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« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2017, 12:23:49 AM »

Intriguing.  :-)  These are definitely concepts I will have to think about.

In the context of this world-view, the ideas of Melody, Harmony and Rhythm working together in balance are reflections of the Gray philosophy that the force must be in balance.   But its not a rejection of Good vs Evil.  Karmack and others of his order still see themselves fighting for Good.  They just don't look to the force as a definition of what is good or evil.  I drew on my own musical training in part because I remember having long debates about what kinds of music are "good" and what kinds are "bad".  The conclusion I came to is that there are many different forms of music, some I like, some I don't, but in order to be "good" music it has to have a functional balance between the three basic elements.  If ANY one element gets inflated to the exclusion of the other two, that music is not good music.  So the view of the force.  While Karmack would generally agree with the Jedi on their ideas of what is right and what is wrong regarding Good vs Evil, they would find themselves VERY far apart on what is right vs wrong on how to live their lives, because the Jedi take one aspect - lets say, Melody - and they magnify it while trying to eradicate another element - lest say, Rhythm - from the expression of the force. 

From the canon, we know that Jedi eschew virtually all strong emotion.  The Sith seem to be the opposite, embracing emotions, particularly negative emotions like anger and hate.

The Gray would say that emotions are part of life.  Good or Evil can come from them.  Feel, but don't let feelings be the ruler of your decision-making.  Intellect is the moderator, the control on emotion.  Correct action comes when the other two are in balance.

Now, does Karmack "worship" the Song?  No.  He worships the Singer of the Song.  And that's really the difference.  But that's another discussion...  :-)


Good clarification, thanks.  It is a very interesting concept, when I think of Gray Jedi I tended to think of Kreia from KOTOR 2, or perhaps  Luke at the end of the EU Novel Crucible where he acknowledges the necessity for chaos and order in life (and to an extent his willingness to use violence in a measured way e.g. Lumiya..).  You present a not dissimilar, but still unique way of looking at what a Gray Jedi is and think which is really interesting, and couched  in a good story too.  Thanks for putting it out there.
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Lord_S_Gray

Surik: "Kreia, what are you—are you a Jedi, a Sith?"
Kreia: "Does it matter? Of course it does, such titles allow you to break the galaxy into light and dark, categorize it. Perhaps I am neither, and I hold both as what they are, pieces of a whole."

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« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2017, 05:02:56 AM »

Yes indeed. Very well done.

I like what you said here. You defined your thoughts well. The highlighted passage in particular. That, I believe was what caused to Jedi to fall. They completely ruled out emotion, thinking that following emotions was the way of the Sith. And while yes, following your emotions can lead to destruction, it doesn't always. I feel like you need to take emotions into consideration before making a decision, but don't act on impulse. While I feel like the Jedi were more right than the Sith, they were not perfect, and they definitely needed help. They needed to understand that emotions can make you strong. But you have to utilize them correctly. You must act, never react. Make calculated decisions, not just hop right in and hope everything goes your way, because it most likely wont. Again, very well written, as was the entire story. Thank you for sharing it.
Exactly TR; regardless of metaphysics, social mores, and laws, human emotions are so important in life.  They need not take primacy (as is the way of the Sith) but neither should emotions be suppressed or relegated as a gateway to the Dark Side.  Balance is necessary; I'm reminded of the Middle Path in Buddhism whereupon it leads to freedom and serenity. 

Did not Dave Filoni say no Grey Jedi there are?  Presumptuous you are perhaps?
Perhaps so Oak but, what the hell, it's fan fiction  Wink.  On a more serious note: I believe that what Karm (and TR) have done is enrich SW Lore.  Personally I couldn't care less if what I am reading is or isn't canon; a damn good story is its own reward.  And the beautiful thing about this is: I choose to accept these stories within the SW universe because I feel they belong  Cheesy

But to each their own  Wink

Good clarification, thanks.  It is a very interesting concept, when I think of Gray Jedi I tended to think of Kreia from KOTOR 2, or perhaps  Luke at the end of the EU Novel Crucible where he acknowledges the necessity for chaos and order in life (and to an extent his willingness to use violence in a measured way e.g. Lumiya..).  You present a not dissimilar, but still unique way of looking at what a Gray Jedi is and think which is really interesting, and couched  in a good story too.  Thanks for putting it out there.
Good clarification, thanks.  It is a very interesting concept, when I think of Gray Jedi I tended to think of Kreia from KOTOR 2, or perhaps  Luke at the end of the EU Novel Crucible where he acknowledges the necessity for chaos and order in life (and to an extent his willingness to use violence in a measured way e.g. Lumiya..).  You present a not dissimilar, but still unique way of looking at what a Gray Jedi is and think which is really interesting, and couched  in a good story too.  Thanks for putting it out there.
"Violence in a measured way."  Excellent way to put it LSG^^
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OAK1971
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« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2017, 06:02:20 AM »

Just messing with you, if Lucas can sell out for 4 billion what is really set in stone anymore?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYdmWsKX_Eo" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYdmWsKX_Eo</a>

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All is as the Force wills it. I am one with the Force and the Force is with me.

Karmack
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« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2017, 08:30:44 AM »

LSG, Oak, Dutchman, thank you all for your comments.  :-)  Its fun to discuss these things.  In honesty, my own version of "Gray" Jedi is largely a result of my attempt to reconcile my own Christian worldview with the concept of the force.  What would a Christian force user look like philosophically?  Many of the SW "force" concepts are based on deistic concepts and the force is often treated as a 'god', even if it is not named as such in the SW material. 

So I began by separating God from the force.  :-)  When you reduce the force to just another aspect of nature, something that is sensed by all to some extent and does in fact connect and bind us all together, a metaphysical aspect to nature that is outside the boundary of science (for now) but not really super-natural.  Kind of like gravity in our real world - we see its effects but we can't really quantify it or really understand how it works. 

And in that context, I created Karmack and his order.  They're more like Templars than Jedi, in that sense, only without (I hope!) the negative overtones that the Knights Templar acquired in their secular dealings.  Maybe more like the Hospitalars.  :-)  They protect the innocent, confront and remove evil whenever possible, and generally do the same sorts of things Jedi have done traditionally, but not with the same restrictive rules.  Maybe a good analogy would be that Jedi are Catholic Priests, and my Gray order are Baptist ministers.  :-) 

Ok, maybe not.  LOL

Anyway, I'm glad everyone enjoyed the story.  And Oak1971, go on pulling people's chains!  Its ... stimulating.  :-)

Look for another story thread soon!

Karmack

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« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2017, 10:27:25 AM »

The whole thing is interesting, especially with Disney's take on it yet to be seen. Now before anybody corrects me, I know full well that Lucas film still exists, so please don't bother beating that dead horse. We all know who forked over the 4 billion, and it was not the tooth fairy.
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Taegin Roan
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« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2017, 01:08:36 PM »

LSG, Oak, Dutchman, thank you all for your comments.  :-)  Its fun to discuss these things.  In honesty, my own version of "Gray" Jedi is largely a result of my attempt to reconcile my own Christian worldview with the concept of the force.  What would a Christian force user look like philosophically?  Many of the SW "force" concepts are based on deistic concepts and the force is often treated as a 'god', even if it is not named as such in the SW material. 

So I began by separating God from the force.  :-)  When you reduce the force to just another aspect of nature, something that is sensed by all to some extent and does in fact connect and bind us all together, a metaphysical aspect to nature that is outside the boundary of science (for now) but not really super-natural.  Kind of like gravity in our real world - we see its effects but we can't really quantify it or really understand how it works. 

And in that context, I created Karmack and his order.  They're more like Templars than Jedi, in that sense, only without (I hope!) the negative overtones that the Knights Templar acquired in their secular dealings.  Maybe more like the Hospitalars.  :-)  They protect the innocent, confront and remove evil whenever possible, and generally do the same sorts of things Jedi have done traditionally, but not with the same restrictive rules.  Maybe a good analogy would be that Jedi are Catholic Priests, and my Gray order are Baptist ministers.  :-) 

Ok, maybe not.  LOL

Anyway, I'm glad everyone enjoyed the story.  And Oak1971, go on pulling people's chains!  Its ... stimulating.  :-)

Look for another story thread soon!

Karmack

I think this is why I enjoyed it so much. You got rid of the idea that the Force is god, and make the "Maker" God. Without trying to break forum rules, I agree with this. Your worldview is similar, if not almost the same as my own. This is what I was eluding to in when I said this. vvv


Some of the aspects that you added here that were not mentioned in the first one make it all the more interesting to me.

A very well thought out story, and very entertaining to read. Looking forward to more in the future (as well as my own Wink).
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"I am the Outcast's Shadow" - Taegin Roan
"Confronting fear is the Destiny of a Jedi" - Luke Skywalker
"So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause." - Padmé Amidala

Lady Revan
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« Reply #70 on: October 11, 2018, 12:07:10 AM »

BOOKMARK REPLY! I'm on post #33

I'm thoroughly enjoying the story so far Cheesy

I especially like the idea of paralleling the Force to music (though perhaps as a musician primarily I'm a bit biased in favor of this description).

I'm so glad to have finally been able to start reading through the Forumverse stories. Hopefully I can find the time to get through more soon. I'm looking forward to seeing what they find on Naboo.
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Twisted Morality (Part III of "Only Light Can Cast Shadow")

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Karmack
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« Reply #71 on: October 11, 2018, 06:53:24 AM »

BOOKMARK REPLY! I'm on post #33

I'm thoroughly enjoying the story so far Cheesy

I especially like the idea of paralleling the Force to music (though perhaps as a musician primarily I'm a bit biased in favor of this description).

I'm so glad to have finally been able to start reading through the Forumverse stories. Hopefully I can find the time to get through more soon. I'm looking forward to seeing what they find on Naboo.

Thank you Lady Revan!  I haven't seen this thread up top in the comments for a while!   I am also a musician, and that aspect of these stories came about from a comment my daughter made one evening while watching TV.  It was, I quote: "Don't go in there!  Can't you hear the music?!?"

It was amazingly hilarious, but it got me thinking: What if you COULD hear the music?  How would that effect your actions and perceptions?  If you got a foreboding, menacing musical undercurrent when you shook that smiling man's hand...  Or as you stepped out of the house and into the street. 

So ... I wrote force users that can hear the music!  Or that's how it started anyway.  Karmack is actually a singer.  He can also add to the music and change it.  Very rare, even among his Order.

Anyway, enjoy!  Its nice to see these older stories still hold up!  :-)
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« Reply #72 on: October 11, 2018, 07:56:47 AM »

I felt the song ripple and opened my eyes.  As I expected, Illian was sitting across from me again.  "Illian."

"Master." the youth replied.  "A question, if I may?"

I nodded.  This had become the pattern on our long voyage back to Jedda.  To maintain his cover, Captain Lars had been compelled to deliver the consignment he'd loaded on Naboo to Corusant.  From there a consignment had led to Sigmund, then from there to Dantoine, and then Kessel, and Jakku, and finally back to the core and Corellia where he'd finally picked up a shipment for Jedda.  As he had explained, the population on Jedda was small and shrinking since the damage done by the Empire.  It was getting harder and harder to find legitimate reasons to go there.  The result was a long time spent bouncing around until the right shipment came along.

The time had not been wasted.  Long healing trances had removed all but a faint pink scar from my left arm and restored all function.  Ilian had also healed from the blaster burn he'd suffered.  Arnor had spent long hours teaching him Soresu, a form he had neglected in favor of Ataru once he'd mastered the basics of Shii Cho.  And every evening he'd come about this time and asked questions, leading to long discussions of the force and the teachings Arnor and I followed and the contrasts between them and the Jedi Code.  Illian was bright and intelligent and the Song was strong within him, but in deference to my friend Jothan I tried very hard not to proselytize...

Well.  I tried....

As Illian settled I expected more of the same.  But the young padawan surprised me.  His eyes focused on the gauntlet on my right hand and forearm.  "Master Karmack, what happened to your arm?"

I followed his gaze and then laughed.  "I forget sometimes..."  I reached over and touched the seal, breaking the connection between the upper ring of the gauntlet and the control ring implanted within my arm and slid the device off.  Inside my hand was pail but generally looked normal.  I held it up.  "Many years ago, when I was still a young knight, I was involved in a fight that left my arm damaged and the nerves virtually destroyed.  The healing trance was able to save my hand and restore some function, but fine motor control was lost."  I moved my hand clumsily for him. "Over the years additional treatments and attempts at healing, via medical means as well as the force, have made small improvements but the damage was to extensive for even force-assisted healing to correct.  So a cybernetics engineer made this gauntlet for me.  There is an interface just at the point where the nerves are healthy that sends impulses to the glove, which then assists my natural hand."  I slid the gauntlet back on and reset the connection, then demonstrated the fine motor control now available to me.  "I keep working on the nerves, but for now this provides me with full function."

Illian nodded. "Thank you for explaining.  I've ... been curious."  I watched as he fidgeted and looked down at his hands, which he hastily folded in his lap.

"You've been curious about many things, Illian.  Ask your real question." 

I met his eyes as he looked back up at me.   "I ... um, I want to go with you.  You and Arnor.  I want to be a Jedi, but I want to be a Jedi like you."

I was not surprised.  Arnor and I had been wondering when he would ask.  Thankfully before we reached Jedda.  But there was one thing I needed to know.   Or more correctly, I needed to know that he knew: "Why?"

Illian's eyes remained steady as he replied to my question. "When I asked you, the other day, if it ... bothered you.  Killing.  Your explanation of morality ... it was so much more than anything Master Jothan or Master Uvell ever taught me...  For them, it was about keeping myself in line, following rules, staying on the Light side, avoiding the temptation of the Dark side.  There was no love, no grace, no forgiveness.  But I see now that we need those things.  I see the love you have for all, even as you confront and destroy evil.  The grace that made you risk failure to let as many of the innocent workers in that warehouse evacuate before you blew it up.  As much as I loved Master Jothan..."  He sighed.  "Your view and beliefs are right.  The Jedi are not."

I held his eyes for a long moment.  "We are still Jedi, Illian.  We serve the Light.  We just understand who the Light really is.  Do you understand?"

Illian hesitated, then slowly nodded.  "I think so.  Imperfectly."

"Well said, Illian.  As we all understand imperfectly."  I sat back and relaxed.  "We will be at Jedda in two more days.  I will speak with Master Uvell.  For myself, I have no objection.  But be warned!  You will be Arnor's padawan, not mine!  And she is a much harder task master than I am!"
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Author of: Only Light Can Cast Shadow A pre-KotOR Fem!Revan Fic

Twisted Morality (Part III of "Only Light Can Cast Shadow")

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« Reply #73 on: October 11, 2018, 11:20:04 AM »

I just finished reading this for the first time. WOW!! that was the best SW story I have read in a long time, I love how the greys associated the force with a "song" and I really liked the analogy where you guys compared it to Cap and the Howling Commandos.

If I could only say one thing about this it would be: I NEED MORE!!
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Karmack
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Light side points please.


« Reply #74 on: October 11, 2018, 11:31:32 AM »

LOL    You're in luck!  ;-)
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