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Author Topic: "Rules" of Shii-Cho?  (Read 2614 times)
KalSaj
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« on: August 25, 2017, 06:54:10 PM »

Hey all!

So something listed on the TPLA website about Shii-Cho struck a note with me in particular: A potential mindset of Shii-Cho, in context of its creation, is the "need to train soldiers quickly and effectively." When I think about quickly learning, the phrase "reference material" comes to mind. This eventually led me to develop my 4 "rules" of Shii-Cho (Blah blah, only my interpretation blah blah you know the shtick). The "rules" are:

1) "Press forward"; momentum is key in building power and the loss of it spells disaster
2) "Remain rooted"; Keep your chest between your feet to remain balanced
3) "Chamber and follow through"; point at your target with your leading elbow before striking
4) "Advance and assault"; each strike is accompanied by a step to maximize power

At their most basic level, there are supposed to function as simple references for beginners (those who have never had any martial arts experience) to recite and "check" their posture and motions. The stuff before the semi-colons are the "catchy" rules, almost like a mantra, and the stuff after is the rationale for each of the rules. I've played around with them for a few days and they seem to do the job but I'd like someone OUTSIDE my own brain to give feedback/initiate discussion on strengths and weaknesses of the idea haha.

Like it? Don't like it? How could it be improved?
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Master Uilos
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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2017, 08:30:54 PM »

I like it
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2017, 04:27:02 AM »

I like it

^High praise, believe me.  If there's one thing Uilos is a perfectionist about, it's Shii-Cho.

You're definitely on the right track with these, they all fit with the mindset of the Form.  Part of it is teaching the actual mechanics, and another part is getting you used to advancing into (and through) someone with a weapon.  For most people, this isn't a natural motion, since we tend to be inclined to move in a direction opposite of those who want to do us harm... but in swordsmanship, it's often a necessity to perform bold and decisive attacks.
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KalSaj
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 05:15:07 AM »


I like it
^High praise, believe me.  If there's one thing Uilos is a perfectionist about, it's Shii-Cho.

I thank you both for your kind words. Master Uilos for actually providing them and Master Nero for providing the context (as oblivious as I am, it would not have occurred to me otherwise).

Part of it is teaching the actual mechanics, and another part is getting you used to advancing into (and through) someone with a weapon. For most people, this isn't a natural motion
Amen. A face of the classic binary "defense = backwards, offense = forward" mentality, which is definitely hard to break. In light of that, I might be tempted to add another set of rules. The basic set is 5 (added another, just saying to keep both hands on the sword), so it uses all the fingers on one hand. Following that, perhaps another set could be put on the 2nd hand that represent more advanced lessons. Intercept attacks at points of advantageous leverage before opponents build up power, using rotational momentum from strong parries to feed into wide sweep/spin attacks, etc...but I am concerned it might be outside the scope of what the original 5 rules are meant for (i.e. beginners/newbies). Should there be a 2nd set of five for advanced people? Does that defeat the purpose of ease of use? Or does it drive home the simplicity of Shii-Cho (straightforwardness, not lack of depth) that even advanced lessons can fit on one hand? (setting aside whether or not I actually have the authority to claim I know the advanced techniques).

If I may ask you gentlemen, any opinion on this? Perhaps a suggestion one way or the other? Any peculiarities of Shii-Cho that you believe could be addressed, in a manner such as above, which I neglected? I'm all ears.

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Darth Nonymous
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2017, 12:45:30 PM »

Interesting concept, the first two are pretty standard. Although, I disagree with #2. I don't understand #3 or #4 as how they would be "rules".

One thing to know about the TPLA Shii-Cho is it is based on military training regimens. Most of the ideas are fairly simple and direct.

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KalSaj
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2017, 10:05:46 PM »

Interesting concept, the first two are pretty standard. Although, I disagree with #2. I don't understand #3 or #4 as how they would be "rules".

One thing to know about the TPLA Shii-Cho is it is based on military training regimens. Most of the ideas are fairly simple and direct.

A disagreeing opinion! Alright, now it's time for some growth!

I suppose a touch of context is in order. I am developing all my material for what is primarily a choreography group. The people that join are not signing up for martial arts lessons. There isn't that implicit understanding to train hard and push yourself. In fact, doing would likely kill our member count. If I can get them (collectively) to regularly come to both of the weekly practices and work for the full time, it is a bloody miracle. And, currently, none of them have ANY martial arts experience. So those super easy but critical lessons that you feel are basically flowing through your veins at this point, between your martial arts history and TPLA, are foreign concepts to them. Control your distance, Keep your back straight, Don't over extend, Don't tense your shoulders, Use your full arm and not just your wrist, Rotate with your hips, and so on...they (understandably) just don't know them and don't practice enough to build up the neural connections (muscle memory). And, at this time, we are still training new instructors aside from myself that can teach this, so we don't have the man power to give the individual attention they all need.

So the rules I set up above are for those people: simple things that guide their motions without needing their comprehension. Rule 3, in particular, is an excellent example. By telling them to aim with the leading elbow, it forces their body alignment to do an acceptable chamber for the following strike (whereas they would otherwise swing the sword from in front of their body like a small child whips a pool noodle around, using only their shoulders with stiff elbows/wrists). You say the first two are pretty standard, but a lot of my students may not even grasp the rationale behind #2 and why they keep falling over. Between Rule 3, 4, and 2, I hope that they are able to develop a "strong enough", stable, advancing offense (whereas a lot of them currently move like their torso, arms, and legs are all completely independent. There isn't a coordinated, body-wide effort). In that regard, I'm using SHii-Cho not only to teach them "how to use a lightsaber" but also "how to move your body". Or at least that is the objective.

That said, I would be eager to hear what you would think is more appropriate. For instance, why do you disagree with #2? I admit, I am hesitant to review TPLA's material on Shii-Cho for fear that it would overwhelm my own thoughts and I'd end up just reproducing your material (like I started to, before realizing what was happening, with Makashi). Darth (Master?) Nonymous, what critical rules would you make that someone could just count off on their hand and why? (Simplifications, obviously, but you have to start somewhere). I am extremely appreciative of your (and anyone from TPLA) insight.
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Darth Nonymous
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2017, 11:56:57 PM »

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Let me go over it point by point now that I have abetter idea of where you are coming from.

1) "Press forward"; momentum is key in building power and the loss of it spells disaster- The key here is that beginners tend to back up. So no argument here.

2) "Remain rooted"; Keep your chest between your feet to remain balanced- The chest is a very poor choice of body part to focus on when trying to attain balance in martial art. Most martial arts idenitify the correct balance point being your anatomical center of gravity. This is the region in the dead center of your torso at the lumbar section of the spine. In Chines it's called the Dan Tian, in others it is called other things. To tech good balance you need to focus on the area just below your naval. Focusing on the chest will make you top heavy and easier to knock down. Also the chest can incline and lean to a large extent in 360 degrees without sacrificing equilibrium. This would be very important for "showing" movements in Choero. Sacrificing the chest to remain between your feet would produce a very limited move set, IMO.

3) "Chamber and follow through"; point at your target with your leading elbow before striking- What you describe is something I actively try to teach out of my students. Leading with the elbow arm or hand is a recipe for getting hit. When you describe the children swinging with their shoulders and stiff arms, I have to say I have never seen that before in 12 years of teaching kids. Most of the time they are all elbow wrist and arm and no shoulder waist or legs. The relative position of the elbow in any guard to me is a minute detail that has little bearing on the success of a strike. If someone is raising their elbows too much and biding up their shoulders, that is a problem to be d. But the important part is the shoulder.

4) "Advance and assault"; each strike is accompanied by a step to maximize power- ok, first, you don't nee to maximize power with a weapon. The more important skill especially at the beginning is control. I start all my students out slowly, with static position so they don't have to think of foot work. I mean slowly. painfully slow. This patterns good pathways for proper movement later on. They don't need to know why they are doing it for it to work.

Second, every strike cannot be tied to one step. While that is often used as a guide in set routines, it is not a rule that needs to be followed by students. If that were the case taller people like me would be at a disadvantage. We are not. There are oftentimes when one must hold ground and be able to perform these techniques. No t to mention it set a fairly easy pattern to follow discern and break. I would not recommend that rule for beginners at all unless it is a part of a drill where coordination is a big part of it.

As far as "rules" that I impart to my students, I don't really. I use them as tips, or advice, not rules. They are not laws and they do not hold in all situations. They are guidelines for good practice based on my experiences. In that spirit I would say basic body mechanics is all they need.

1. Keep the shoulder down and away from the ears.
2. do not hunch.
3. move from the waist and torso not the arms or limbs.
4. sink the weight and stay low.
5. relax and move slowly.

Thats the way I go about it.

setting down rules or guidlines for practice is a good thing. Iwould just be careful that you are adding rules that will do what you want them to.
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KalSaj
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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2017, 12:37:44 AM »

While there are some points I believe I improperly communicated and could be further clarified by a revisit of my semantics, I think the heart of your reply is summarized with:

...setting down rules or guidlines for practice is a good thing. Iwould just be careful that you are adding rules that will do what you want them to.

Ultimately, your critiques and suggestions warrant a revisit on my end, especially with considerations towards unforeseen ramifications. After I've chewed on these "rules" a bit, I'll share them with some martial arts connections that are unrelated to this activity for some unbiased opinions.

Thank you for your feedback and ideas! May I message you to share my progress (whenever that may be) and get more critique? I greatly value discussions like this and those willing to have them.

EDIT: Anyone got anything else? Positives? Negatives? That can't be all of the critique, can it?
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Darth Nonymous
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2017, 01:32:44 AM »

While there are some points I believe I improperly communicated and could be further clarified by a revisit of my semantics, I think the heart of your reply is summarized with:

Ultimately, your critiques and suggestions warrant a revisit on my end, especially with considerations towards unforeseen ramifications. After I've chewed on these "rules" a bit, I'll share them with some martial arts connections that are unrelated to this activity for some unbiased opinions.

Thank you for your feedback and ideas! May I message you to share my progress (whenever that may be) and get more critique? I greatly value discussions like this and those willing to have them.

EDIT: Anyone got anything else? Positives? Negatives? That can't be all of the critique, can it?
Sure, no worries. You might want to reach out to us on Facebook, though. I am not usually around here and I visit rarely.
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