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Author Topic: Do you know these moves?  (Read 9564 times)
Cang Snow
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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2017, 03:52:55 PM »

That's a standard counter-attack in Italian canefencing (called Parata di mano), and quite similar in military sabre-fencing (a parry in Prima, hitting not the blade but the hand). Same thing with a thrust is used in Bolognese sidesword (though the thrust is harder to do).

The thing is: I wouldn't recommend this in saber combat, because of the risk of injury.
It doesn't matter how light the blade is - with enough momentum, a finger is easily broken. Though the target should be the wrist (cutting off a hand is more useful than cutting of a finger), this kind of precision is rarely seen in freefencing. Without the necessary force to push the opponents hand offline, a double-hit is almost certain, though.
So, risky with a vague chance of success, at best - at least with the kind of gloves we usually see in saber combat.

Thanks for the historical context, Althalus! I actually think a strike on the hand (or finger) is perfect since it would cut through and destroy the saber. It's also closer than the wrist so I expect it would be a better target. But I agree that the glove you're using is important. If you don't mind, what kind of gloves are you using at Saber Academy?
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« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2017, 01:12:30 AM »

I agree, gloves can make or break your system.  Any time the fingers are a frequent target, I typically recommend some well fitted lacrosse/hockey/HEMA gloves.  Weapon hands are useful things, after all!
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Master Althalus
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« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2017, 06:13:42 AM »

Quote
If you don't mind, what kind of gloves are you using at Saber Academy?
Various.  Wink My usual ones for sparring are Lajolo, designed for knife and stick fighting. Others use Red Dragon HEMA-gloves (they always collide with the sleeves of my fencing jacket, so I don't like them). But the problem with ALL gloves (and, coming from HEMA, I've seen a lot of developments) is, that the tip of the finger is virtually unprotected.
I've received a hit from below on my ring-finger, right on the tip - hurt like hell. Had the blade hit just a centimeter above, it would have hit the protective plate ...
Another danger-zone are joints, especially the thumb. Most gloves have (necessary) gaps there, and blades tend to enter just there.

So, my solution was, to make the hand (mind you, just the hand below the wrist plus fingers) not a valid target zone in competitive fighting (like in the Austrian HEMA-ruleset). The lower arm above the wrist is, though. Less crushed fingers, some black spots on the arm (which can be easily protected with guards or jacket).

But, that's a lesson I learned from HEMA-tournaments (especially long sword), where people started sniping at hands and fingers to take out technically better fighters.

Quote
since it would cut through and destroy the saber.
That's a "depends".  Wink Some authors of the EU write about using the Force to create a protective field around the hands and hilt when dueling.
And taking off the hand above the wrist is canon.  Grin
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Cang Snow
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« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2017, 06:52:47 AM »

I do understand your perspective on glove and finger safety. We have strict criteria for the gloves (not even all lacrosse gloves are acceptable) and all our blades are regulated to a certain diameter and thickness for safety. It does sneak in sometimes and sting, but nothing I have seen to be considered dangerous.

That's a "depends".  Wink Some authors of the EU write about using the Force to create a protective field around the hands and hilt when dueling.
And taking off the hand above the wrist is canon.  Grin

Haha yah I'm not buying it.  Grin I go with the "lay-person understanding" of the lightsaber, not the rationalizations made for super fans going so far in depth. But yah, I am aware of much of these things in the EU (which are now legends by the way! *whew*) which, in my opinion, really harm the lightsaber in terms of its unique quality.

By the way, have you tried finger tip protectors? You can insert them into the finger ends of your gloves for added protection. I'm sure you know about them already but just in case, and for anyone else reading.
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Cang Snow
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« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2017, 06:54:04 AM »

I agree, gloves can make or break your system.  Any time the fingers are a frequent target, I typically recommend some well fitted lacrosse/hockey/HEMA gloves.  Weapon hands are useful things, after all!

Nonsense, Nero. Just use the Force!
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Master Althalus
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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2017, 08:02:47 AM »

Quote
By the way, have you tried finger tip protectors?
The one's I've tried did a good job at making the grip clumsy but a rather bad job at actually protecting the fingers.  Wink Depending on the fingers and glove used, the edges of the protectors can even be a bit painful over time themselves.

I'm still waiting for the glove that will combine fine manipulation and protection - in HEMA and sabering. But I'm not holding my breath.  Wink
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« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2017, 12:25:07 PM »

Nonsense, Nero. Just use the Force!

I'd so love to have that option Wink
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Cang Snow
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« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2017, 09:42:56 AM »

Oops! A little late on this one. Introducing the Slipcut. It is, admittedly, not very new, but too important to leave out. Low-line defensive actions in lightsaber are fairly difficult. Even more so in Lightspeed-saber. Use a slipcut to get the advantage.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJHX_zJEl_I" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJHX_zJEl_I</a>


So that's three counterattacks in a row. Next week, we're gonna showcase a primary attack. I promise it will be fairly lightsaber-exclusive (I think) Cheesy
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Master Althalus
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« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2017, 10:37:17 AM »

Jep, that's pretry familiar.  Wink
It is often used in French cane (they attack the legs quite often). In Bolognese fencing, we do this with a step called "cambiare di piedi" - a "changing of the feet". You begin with the back-slip, but instead of cutting simultanously, you let pass the attack, step back with the foot you just slipped and immediately step forward with the other.
I've found it essential to keep the muscles of the core under tension with this movement, as it makes it easier to keep ones balance while standing essentially on one foot.
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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2017, 01:22:30 PM »

Jep, that's pretry familiar.  Wink
It is often used in French cane (they attack the legs quite often). In Bolognese fencing, we do this with a step called "cambiare di piedi" - a "changing of the feet". You begin with the back-slip, but instead of cutting simultanously, you let pass the attack, step back with the foot you just slipped and immediately step forward with the other.
I've found it essential to keep the muscles of the core under tension with this movement, as it makes it easier to keep ones balance while standing essentially on one foot.

You are right, it is a very familiar counter attack in French cane ... The "spectacular form" includes a jump when dodging Wink
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Cang Snow
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« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2017, 06:55:30 PM »

Yes, I agree with both of you. I do teach it in a very "clean" way but in practice, my execution is much more dynamic. One of our guys, whose formal training is in eskrima, does it with a float off his toes, so he gains quite a lot of height as part of the action.
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Cang Snow
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« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2017, 07:09:29 PM »

This week's move is the Dropshot. It is descended from a longsword action (I am unsure of the specific regional or ethnic tradition it comes from. I am sure Althalus will educate me  Cheesy ) in which the pommel hand is used to thrust at the opponent. Since point-attacks are not allowed in the Lightspeed format-- and because edge alignment and power are not factors-- this has been adapted into a hand pick-off.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZo3RtK0x90" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZo3RtK0x90</a>


My assistant is a new student and unfortunately I did not realize he was not executing the move accurately at the time of filming. It is called a "shot" for a reason, as opposed to a cut, because the attack should be extended straight from the shoulders, and not coming down high like an axe chop.

I like to shoot from the Inside Guard so as to mask my range. However, the Dropshot can certainly be executed from a forward position.

This is a great move at the beginner to intermediate level. Its major weakness, which I did not mention, is you're extremely vulnerable to a hard beat, and possible expulsion. So be careful, and hold on tight.  Grin
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Master Althalus
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« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2017, 06:45:34 AM »

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I am unsure of the specific regional or ethnic tradition it comes from. I am sure Althalus will educate me
You called?  Grin

What you mean is the "Geiseln" ("whipping") in German longsword, but this is done to the legs only. The way you're doing it is more like a "Trivellata" in Bolognese two-handed sword, which is a "thrown point" with the left hand on the pommel (it's a rather nasty move with a sword of about 2.5 kg and 150 cm length).

Why no thrusts? Your blades flex easily enough and from what I've seen, there's sufficient protection used.
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Cang Snow
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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2017, 08:34:50 AM »


Why no thrusts? Your blades flex easily enough and from what I've seen, there's sufficient protection used.

I knew you wouldn't let me down!

No thrusts because we are a sport organization, with the rules designed to encourage very dynamic and exciting play. Anything that tends to stall the match is removed. For a tool designed to mimic a weightless blade, actions like point -in-line and other point attacks are too powerful, and almost completely negate all other techniques. The game becomes even more defensive than epee. Therefore we disallow point attacks.
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Master Althalus
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« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2017, 08:55:40 AM »

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Anything that tends to stall the match is removed.
That's an explanation I can understand, though my experiences differ. IMHO it all stands and falls with how you handle double-hits.
Contra-tempo, at is called in fencing, is often tried but seldom done right, so it mostly results in a double-hit. If they can win a fight by double-hitting, this will be a valid tactical option, if they can't, (bad) thrusting in tempo will become less useful.

Especially when fighting one-handed, I find thrusts to be less useful in saber. Thrusts are fast, but linear, so they are easily displaced or voided and leave the attacker open for a counter-cut. So, we use them, but interestingly, they are far less often used than with steel.
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Obsidian v4: Shock, Dark Initiate v4, Consular
Obsidian Lite: Aeon v4, Dominix LE v4
Stunt: Apprentice v4, Initiate LE v2, Aeon v4

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