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Author Topic: Cossack sword arts (Shashka/Adyghe)  (Read 13154 times)
Darth Cephalus
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« on: September 21, 2017, 09:12:08 PM »

Let me preface this by saying Nero, if you move this over into the sword arts section I swear to god we are going to have words! I have a post on this over there and it's focus is different. This one belongs here. Now with that out of the way, please consider this not only my semi annual ambassadorial attempt, but the fruits of my research that I thought might be of interest to those in the community interested in the interpretation of world cultures and their forms of combat into this hobby.

My Bias
To begin, I am a flow artist, so most of what I do gets considered by those of you with a more dueling mindset to be "Just swinging a saber around". It is a fair enough point, a lot of what I do is not intended for combat. Still, I have always maintained that it is relevant to combat in the same way that a lot of sword arts are. It teaches coordination, range of movement, and familiarity with the saber that translates into martial skill. This has been a hard point to sell people on over the years, but so be it. Apparently though, it is not just me: the Cossacks agree.

The Context
Some years ago, when I was setting up the saber artistry section of this forum, I was looking around for how different cultures used swords in non martial presentations like dance. I found this video.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OuaMsaSiQU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OuaMsaSiQU</a>

I only found the one video like this but was impressed at the time. From this video, I learned what I later called the wing spin in my recent tutorial reboot focused on what I call Niman. Discussion on that was started here but moved over into the saber artistry section. A few years later, a video poped up on a few places on facebook. I don't have that link, but it was of a competition in which Russians were doing things similar to this
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTtJOWQTmKA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTtJOWQTmKA</a>

I though "that looks pretty darn familiar" and determined to look into it. Apparently this was a thing, but what was it?

Meet the Shashka/adyghe

The Shashka is a single handed, guardless sword used in Russian, Cossack, or Circassian sword arts. Guardless sword...hmmmm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shashka
So why was this so hard to find? 2 reasons: most of the material is in Russian, and it is almost a dead art. Turns out, in the USSR, the ownership of a Shashka was illegal. Their use was preserved in certain circles, but it has been dwindling. In recent years, a new interest in how different cultures approached martial arts has seen it start to rebuild and it looks like this
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARlHAqd2820" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARlHAqd2820</a>


Continued in next post for embedding purposes...
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Darth Cephalus
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2017, 09:13:37 PM »

Use of a Shashka
Now to some of you, that might have looked silly but it should have looked familiar. But was it combat? let me answer and say that Cossacks loved their swords. From the age of 7 or 8 they would practice at least a couple hours a day with them. They practiced strikes and movement. The Shashka was used in war and in culture. The thing is that much of the technique was similar.
http://aksem62.com/traditional-cossack-weapons-2/the-use-of-cossack-shashka/
https://singdancefight.com/2014/12/21/how-to-use-a-shashka-fighting-techniques/
https://singdancefight.com/2014/12/22/how-to-use-dance-with-a-shashka/
Here we see it in combat drills.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHQMm-Enj-Y" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHQMm-Enj-Y</a>

Here in dance
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdhlFyC70bs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdhlFyC70bs</a>

And here in hidden strikes (a mix in which strikes can come from places that don't look like strikes.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKCchcBv-jc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKCchcBv-jc</a>


So I was intrigued. This was what i had been saying about the marriage of combat and art. It was what I saw in places like kung fu and in some forms of rapier. There were also some neat combos in there. Most of these movement were things I knew (like the obi/ani) it was just a matter of timing, isolation and flow. I decided to give it a shot. I spent some time getting translated search terms, watched a few videos, and, after a couple practice sessions, this is what I had
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmR_UJYf5Ng" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmR_UJYf5Ng</a>

I didn't think it was too shabby. Of course I posted it..and low and behold I got a lot of encouragement. Then someone said "sure if you want to just spin a sword around" at which point, I envisioned a ancient Cossack with 50 years of sword experience disemboweling them while they typed the comment. It helped.
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2017, 01:24:12 AM »

Very fascinating Cephalus. Thanks for sharing this, -1
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2017, 06:07:59 AM »

Quote
The Shashka was used in war and in culture. The thing is that much of the technique was similar.
And here's the catch: As the Cossack culture was illegal after the fall of the Czar, those things survived as folklore - mostly dancing. Much like in any other part of the world, where such things happened, martial arts got transformed into something new - dance, sport, show.
As with modern Wushu, those forms have their roots in useful techniques, but by now, they are just tradition. Most of them where meant as exercises anyway, not actual fighting techniques.

Today, the Shashka is used in Systema - and most of those vids get bashed in martial arts communities all over the world. Mostly rightfully so.

What's more, the Shashka is a cavalry-sword, meaning it's intended use is from horseback. Most of those spins are therefore practice to use the blade while riding a horse. We find similiar exercises in British and Hungarian cavalry-manuals - and, of course, Polish sabre.

I've handled a Shashka and the thing is a beast. The point of balance is so far forward (like with most cavalry-swords), as to lend itself perfectly for those swings to both sides of the rider. But try to chop with it - it almost tears your shoulder. No resemblance to a lightsaber.  Wink
Quote
I envisioned a ancient Cossack with 50 years of sword experience disemboweling them while they typed the comment.
Would be hard to find one today - most of them died in the fire of MGs in the Revolution, WWI and WWII.
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Darth Cephalus
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 06:40:44 AM »

My imagination is populated by many bloodthirsty characters. Realism is not a requirement.

Neat to find someone who has used one. I really need to get a couple.

I don't know if there is much besides HEMA and kendo that didn't get outlawed and have to hide. I am sure there is, but it does seem to happen a lot. Arnis, capoeira, Kung fu, sheleighleigh, etc.

At any rate, these looked a lot more like combat.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9yNDZF5_Q" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9yNDZF5_Q</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdgRSsHobJI&amp;t=35s" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdgRSsHobJI&amp;t=35s</a>

The guys at about 1 min in on the second video are particularly good.
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2017, 07:04:44 AM »

And here's the catch: As the Cossack culture was illegal after the fall of the Czar, those things survived as folklore - mostly dancing. Much like in any other part of the world, where such things happened, martial arts got transformed into something new - dance, sport, show.
As with modern Wushu, those forms have their roots in useful techniques, but by now, they are just tradition. Most of them where meant as exercises anyway, not actual fighting techniques.

Today, the Shashka is used in Systema - and most of those vids get bashed in martial arts communities all over the world. Mostly rightfully so.

What's more, the Shashka is a cavalry-sword, meaning it's intended use is from horseback. Most of those spins are therefore practice to use the blade while riding a horse. We find similiar exercises in British and Hungarian cavalry-manuals - and, of course, Polish sabre.

I've handled a Shashka and the thing is a beast. The point of balance is so far forward (like with most cavalry-swords), as to lend itself perfectly for those swings to both sides of the rider. But try to chop with it - it almost tears your shoulder. No resemblance to a lightsaber.  ;)Would be hard to find one today - most of them died in the fire of MGs in the Revolution, WWI and WWII.



That is the point ... In France, the Napoleonian Cavalry Saber is quite the same except that it has a guard.

As Althalus said, most of the 19th Century European armies have this type of sword for their light cavalry. Here, its use remains in the Republican Guard and they traine also with cane. So, for protocolar events, when they use their sabers, RG make a lot of spin.

However, very nice topic DC, have a point for that Wink


Also, i love this vid

Use of a Shashka

Here we see it in combat drills.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHQMm-Enj-Y



and just to show you that this type of Dance/Shadow is real combat training and to illustrate that you can find the same type of material from a lot of HEMA communities, here comes a vids from French Canne Smiley

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXkr2M37ihU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXkr2M37ihU</a>
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2017, 10:45:41 AM »

Quote
At any rate, these looked a lot more like combat.
If you look at the first vid, this is a basic cutting exercise, very similar to those done in Polish sabre (most of the western military sabre-schools have a different way of moving).
Quote
The guys at about 1 min in on the second video are particularly good.
Looks like a staged fight at some fair. Especially the last part screams "PRETENDING" out loud.  Grin
Most is more a kind of juggling than actual sword-fighting (which is fine and an art to itself!).
Quote
and just to show you that this type of Dance/Shadow is real combat training
"Spiegelfechten", shadow-boxing, etc. whatever you want to call it, has been a part of martial arts training at every time and in every culture. When it comes to the question of "do these moves have combat relevance", though, one has to look a bit harder.
Spins behind the back definitly will get you killed in combat with blades - at least if you are not fighting unarmed children.  Wink But they serve to loosen the muscles of the shoulders and lower back for the necessary movement when fighting from the saddle.
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2017, 11:00:03 AM »

If you look at the first vid, this is a basic cutting exercise, very similar to those done in Polish sabre (most of the western military sabre-schools have a different way of moving).Looks like a staged fight at some fair. Especially the last part screams "PRETENDING" out loud.  Grin
Most is more a kind of juggling than actual sword-fighting (which is fine and an art to itself!)."Spiegelfechten", shadow-boxing, etc. whatever you want to call it, has been a part of martial arts training at every time and in every culture. When it comes to the question of "do these moves have combat relevance", though, one has to look a bit harder.
Spins behind the back definitly will get you killed in combat with blades - at least if you are not fighting unarmed children.  Wink But they serve to loosen the muscles of the shoulders and lower back for the necessary movement when fighting from the saddle.


We are on a LightSaber forum !!!!

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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2017, 11:26:44 AM »

 Grin That explains a lot about that final fight ...  Grin
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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2017, 07:49:44 PM »

Grin That explains a lot about that final fight ...  Grin

Grin

I can not wait to watch DC's adaptation of Shashka!!!!
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2017, 03:07:32 PM »

Let me preface this by saying Nero, if you move this over into the sword arts section I swear to god we are going to have words! I have a post on this over there and it's focus is different. This one belongs here.

Upon reviewing this post, I actually don't plan to move it anywhere.  Unlike your previous post, which was an attempt to bridge the gap which didn't quite get deep enough into combat, this one actually presents a martial art in a combat context.  There's clearly a heavy emphasis on the "art" portion, likely due to many years of atrophy when the weapon was banned, but it does seem that some practicality remains.

Still, as a longtime Mod who strives to provide a fair and helpful service to this forum, I don't recommend calling me out like this in the future.  I'll assume this time was merely a joke, and enjoy it as such.

Here's where the "combat" relevant question comes in - with your demonstration, what is your intent with the techniques shown?  Are you interpreting the videos you posted, extrapolating the purpose of techniques?  This section is for discussion of the use of the lightsaber in combat, so while this thread has definite potential, I'd like to see some real talk about what the movements in these videos can do for us.  The first couple are very clearly dancing, while the latter few start to investigate the combat capability to some degree.

Some interesting points by Althalus, although I can't comment (having no extensive knowledge of this particular weapon).  However, being interested in the evolution of bladed weapons, I do agree that there's a common shape and weighting to swords wielded from horseback, which typically makes them much less practical on foot.  I'd be curious to see someone with a focus in Polish saber weigh in on the discussion.
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« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2017, 05:11:21 PM »

Use of a Shashka
But was it combat? let me answer

I await your answer. For me combat is defined as a physical struggle for dominance between two or more persons. Webster defines combat as follows:

Definition of combat

1 :a fight or contest between individuals or groups
2 :conflict, controversy
3 :active fighting in a war

That being said anything in a combat post should "Cut the fat" (No I will not apologize for the pun).

Quote
My imagination is populated by many bloodthirsty characters. Realism is not a requirement.

Realism is a requirement for discussions in this content area. Like Nero I have never handled a Shashka, but if the weight distribution is as Althalus I wouldn't want to either.
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« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2017, 06:47:04 PM »

I typically refrain from anything combat related via text. That being said, the little flower and plum blossom flourish is two things in one from my training background. One, it helps understand simple movement and is first used as a warmup and coordination drill. Second, in MeiHuaQuan, the Plum Blossom is used as a Progressive indirect attack. I see valid points on both sides when it is argued that it is the " senseless " spin. Most the time this is said from a person who is HEMA trained or trains in a Japanese sword/weapon art. Personally, when I spar, I never use any spins if it is against someone who is trained. Especially behind the back....due to my Kali background.

If I do use it, I use the ABD method personally. ( JKD terms. Attack by Drawing. )

" Absorb what is useful. Discard what is not. Add what is uniquely your own. " - Bruce Lee


P.S. - Honestly, when it comes down to it, research your own experience. I cannot tell you how many times a HEMA practitioner see's the Kali version of a " lunge " thrust attack and is dumbfounded. We feel the same way about the fencing thrust. They both have their place.  ( not the same topic, I know, but it comes up almost every time If they have a European Martial Arts background. )

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« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 03:32:22 AM »

To start, the comment in regard to Nero was meant in jest. It was a lighthearted reference to a long standing set of differences of opinion that are no doubt fated to continue. It was basically to say, I expect that what follows will meet with disagreement and accept it. I might have helped if  had added a "shakes fist" emoji or some such.

Now to the comment about cutting the fat. No. Just no. I have long held that a conversation about hitting things must not always be just about hitting things. This point is part of the basis for my philosophy. My take away from the videos and purpose in showing them was that the moves in the dance videos were a variation of the same moves in the combat videos. That is to say that the skill sets are transferable to some extent. As a relation to combat or the struggle between individuals, familiarity with the motion of a blade around the body is strictly speaking a combat skill. The hidden strike video was a video demonstrating the ways that the moves in the dance videos will move the blades between positions from which an attack or strike may be made. Just because there are no strikes does not mean that the technique has no efficacy so long as the potential for strikes exists and is enhanced through the technique.

That was my purpose in my translation of the techniques in my video. I was interested in the new ranges of motion opened up in the videos and the ways to have a blade moving in such a way that it does not hinder or limit the movement of another blade. That concept is central to two weapon fighting. If your blades get in each others way you have a real problem. The dance, as I see it in the technique, was a practice routine used by very combat oriented individuals to create a fluidity that would be functionally useful. I like to think that my ability to do these things gives me access to a language of movement that has all kinds of application, among which would be my ability to move my blade into an opponent.

That language of movement is a conversation beyond "what is the best way to hit someone". Yet still it is a combat conversation. There is value to the question "what isa different way to hit someone" just as there is value to the question "what is a good way to avoid being hit". In a chess game, there is a lot to be said for the unusual move. If the focus is always on pure efficacy and trimming the fat, you lose not just the art and beauty of the game, but you sacrifice results. That is why I shared this here, not just to lend validity to something that I am tired of being relegated to a second class status, but rather to offer variety into a discussion that tends to get too bogged down in result based thinking. Not every chess move will place the opposing king in check. Some will place your own in danger. A player who wants to be a better player should maybe try learning to do the latter as a way to improve their ability to do the former.

That said, there is also a benefit to having a basis of comparison and expanding vocabulary. If one looks at immediate results, I doubt anything will ever approach a simple thrust. But what happens if, accepting this, you just learn how to thrust? The moves of these people may look goofy and they may get you hit. I could say the same for that Kendo stance where you lead with your face. That does not mean that it is of no use. This kind of spinning is about blade angle and position. It is about transitions and mobility. If a slash fails, it is about getting to another in a more fluid way than parry and repost. In that way, it is more about the next move than the current. The creation of a barrage as you saw in the choreographed piece. At least that is how I see it.
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« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2017, 02:14:37 PM »

To start, the comment in regard to Nero was meant in jest. It was a lighthearted reference to a long standing set of differences of opinion that are no doubt fated to continue. It was basically to say, I expect that what follows will meet with disagreement and accept it. I might have helped if  had added a "shakes fist" emoji or some such.

Now to the comment about cutting the fat. No. Just no. I have long held that a conversation about hitting things must not always be just about hitting things. This point is part of the basis for my philosophy. My take away from the videos and purpose in showing them was that the moves in the dance videos were a variation of the same moves in the combat videos. That is to say that the skill sets are transferable to some extent. As a relation to combat or the struggle between individuals, familiarity with the motion of a blade around the body is strictly speaking a combat skill. The hidden strike video was a video demonstrating the ways that the moves in the dance videos will move the blades between positions from which an attack or strike may be made. Just because there are no strikes does not mean that the technique has no efficacy so long as the potential for strikes exists and is enhanced through the technique.

That was my purpose in my translation of the techniques in my video. I was interested in the new ranges of motion opened up in the videos and the ways to have a blade moving in such a way that it does not hinder or limit the movement of another blade. That concept is central to two weapon fighting. If your blades get in each others way you have a real problem. The dance, as I see it in the technique, was a practice routine used by very combat oriented individuals to create a fluidity that would be functionally useful. I like to think that my ability to do these things gives me access to a language of movement that has all kinds of application, among which would be my ability to move my blade into an opponent.

That language of movement is a conversation beyond "what is the best way to hit someone". Yet still it is a combat conversation. There is value to the question "what isa different way to hit someone" just as there is value to the question "what is a good way to avoid being hit". In a chess game, there is a lot to be said for the unusual move. If the focus is always on pure efficacy and trimming the fat, you lose not just the art and beauty of the game, but you sacrifice results. That is why I shared this here, not just to lend validity to something that I am tired of being relegated to a second class status, but rather to offer variety into a discussion that tends to get too bogged down in result based thinking. Not every chess move will place the opposing king in check. Some will place your own in danger. A player who wants to be a better player should maybe try learning to do the latter as a way to improve their ability to do the former.

That said, there is also a benefit to having a basis of comparison and expanding vocabulary. If one looks at immediate results, I doubt anything will ever approach a simple thrust. But what happens if, accepting this, you just learn how to thrust? The moves of these people may look goofy and they may get you hit. I could say the same for that Kendo stance where you lead with your face. That does not mean that it is of no use. This kind of spinning is about blade angle and position. It is about transitions and mobility. If a slash fails, it is about getting to another in a more fluid way than parry and repost. In that way, it is more about the next move than the current. The creation of a barrage as you saw in the choreographed piece. At least that is how I see it.


I do see where you're going with this, truly.  I'm very open to new methods, and in fact one of my greatest interests is the commonality in techniques between arts.  In the interest of that, let's break these down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHQMm-Enj-Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9yNDZF5_Q

These show some basic cuts, and have a strong resemblance to Polish saber (which isn't surprising).  Do we have an idea of this person's skill level?  The cuts themselves are of mixed quality, but I'll let Master Artorius weigh in on that aspect in particular.  I'm still not sure about the use of the plum blossom (Obi-Ani) technique in this particular set of circumstances.  Perhaps the circular motions you're emulating are to compensate for an overly blade heavy weapon?  As we discussed previously, this was designed for horseback, so some adaptation would be necessary to make it work on foot.  Regardless, there are some similar elements in the TPLA Soresu and Ataru (which are linked intrinsically), with angular momentum being applied as force during attacks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdgRSsHobJI

^This video contains very little practical usage.  It shows largely the modern dance applications, with the two combatants in the middle performing a choreographed fight.  That said, the choreography could easily be performed with a lightsaber to great effect.

Overall, I see a lot of similarity (in the practical demonstrations) with other heavy, curved cutting weapons such as the saber.  This definitely shows that there is a level of combat applicability here, although it seems completely absent in the more dance-heavy videos.  There appears to be a large gap between the traditional, martial origins of the weapon and the more modern artistic uses.  Of course, this is not unlike most martial arts, lightsaber included (hence the two sections on this forum).  The period of time when the usage of the sword dwindled is clearly the biggest source of this.

FYI, my personal favorite site for swords is Kult of Athena.  They seem to have some nice options for the shashka:  http://kultofathena.com/s_results.asp?search=shashka&submit=Search
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