what IS niman?

[skribs]

From the research I've done, Niman seems to be the least-defined form of the seven forms, especially as it pertains to real-world applications.  Most of the explanations I've seen either make it a niche form, or are wishy-washy throwaway explanations that don't really define what is special about Niman.  For example, here are explanations I have seen:

• Niman is the form that uses the telekinetic powers of the force in conjunction with lightsaber battle, or that uses the ability to turn off the lightsaber to surprise opponents.  This is, in my opinion, the best explanation for Niman, but it doesn't apply to the real world.
• Niman is the form that includes Jar-Kai and Saberstaff techniques.  I think that the principles of the different forms can be adapted to those styles, and that making Niman and two-blade styles permanently tied together makes Niman seem like a niche style.
• Niman is the culmination of the previous five forms. The problem I have with this is twofold: 1) why can't a master of the previous forms simply switch from one style to another as the need arises, without a 6th form being named for it?  2) This model works for a tiered or stepladder approach where Niman is the 7th form you learn, but doesn't really work in a standalone model where each form has its own identity.
• Niman is about creativity.  This is all well and good, but it doesn't really explain what kind of techniques would go with Niman.  Also, why can't someone be creative with Ataru or Soresu?
• Niman is about flow.  This explanation doesn't really explain what Niman is, it's just a single-word explanation to give it a label to separate it from the other forms.

What I'm looking for is the answer: what IS Niman?  What is it that gives Niman its identity, as it can pertain to real-world applications of the Seven Forms?  What techniques or style would you expect to see from a Niman practitioner that you would not expect to see from any other lightsaber duelist?  What are the pros and cons of Niman?  How would you sell Niman to someone who is trying to figure out what form they want to learn?

Of course, if you think my thoughts on the answers I've heard before are incorrect, please educate me on this.  However, I still want to know what it is about Niman that makes it a separate Form, as opposed to just adding a bit of creativity to a previous form.

[Darth Logos]

From the research I've done, Niman seems to be the least-defined form of the seven forms, especially as it pertains to real-world applications.  Most of the explanations I've seen either make it a niche form, or are wishy-washy throwaway explanations that don't really define what is special about Niman.  For example, here are explanations I have seen:

• Niman is the form that uses the telekinetic powers of the force in conjunction with lightsaber battle, or that uses the ability to turn off the lightsaber to surprise opponents.  This is, in my opinion, the best explanation for Niman, but it doesn't apply to the real world.
• Niman is the form that includes Jar-Kai and Saberstaff techniques.  I think that the principles of the different forms can be adapted to those styles, and that making Niman and two-blade styles permanently tied together makes Niman seem like a niche style.
• Niman is the culmination of the previous five forms. The problem I have with this is twofold: 1) why can't a master of the previous forms simply switch from one style to another as the need arises, without a 6th form being named for it?  2) This model works for a tiered or stepladder approach where Niman is the 7th form you learn, but doesn't really work in a standalone model where each form has its own identity.
• Niman is about creativity.  This is all well and good, but it doesn't really explain what kind of techniques would go with Niman.  Also, why can't someone be creative with Ataru or Soresu?
• Niman is about flow.  This explanation doesn't really explain what Niman is, it's just a single-word explanation to give it a label to separate it from the other forms.

What I'm looking for is the answer: what IS Niman?  What is it that gives Niman its identity, as it can pertain to real-world applications of the Seven Forms?  What techniques or style would you expect to see from a Niman practitioner that you would not expect to see from any other lightsaber duelist?  What are the pros and cons of Niman?  How would you sell Niman to someone who is trying to figure out what form they want to learn?

Of course, if you think my thoughts on the answers I've heard before are incorrect, please educate me on this.  However, I still want to know what it is about Niman that makes it a separate Form, as opposed to just adding a bit of creativity to a previous form.

Perhaps Niman is a chaos form, similar to Zui Quan (drunken fist). The lack of hard and fast maneuvers make it almost impossible to defend against which is why it would be so effective. However, keeping the mind free flowing and creative in the midst of a battle scenario may be the main reason why the style is difficult to master.

[skribs]

Drunken boxing is characterized by movements that appear to be that of a drunkard - staggering, swaying, and usually waiting for your body to come in line with the punch you want to deliver.  (Actually just realized it seems kinda like Capoeira to an extent in that way).  While it appears random, there are definitely techniques, stances, and practiced motions to properly achieve this result.

What are the techniques that one would use for Niman, in this same vain?

[Darth Logos]

Drunken boxing is characterized by movements that appear to be that of a drunkard - staggering, swaying, and usually waiting for your body to come in line with the punch you want to deliver.  (Actually just realized it seems kinda like Capoeira to an extent in that way).  While it appears random, there are definitely techniques, stances, and practiced motions to properly achieve this result.

What are the techniques that one would use for Niman, in this same vain?

Now that I think about it, Shi Cho is the only real saber technique, and seems to be the basis of all subsequent forms. Makashi focuses on attack. Soresu focuses on defense. Ataru focuses on movement, primarily flips and spins. All I've ever really heard of Shien/Djem So is that it focuses on deflection/reflection of blaster attacks, but also that it requires a great deal of physical strength which makes me think it also has applications in harder deflection of saber attacks as well as block breaking. Niman, I'm still convinced, is a chaos form utilized to keep your opponent off balance and on the defensive. I think that one must study the previous forms first in order to have the ground work laid to mix them up in Niman, as well as incorporating Force tricks. Following this is Juyo, which effectively is utilizing one's emotions in combat. It's not often taught by the Jedi since it relies on emotion, and drawing on emotional power can, and most likely will, lead to the Dark Side.

[KalSaj]

• Niman is the culmination of the previous five forms. The problem I have with this is twofold: 1) why can't a master of the previous forms simply switch from one style to another as the need arises, without a 6th form being named for it?  2) This model works for a tiered or stepladder approach where Niman is the 7th form you learn, but doesn't really work in a standalone model where each form has its own identity.

...

What I'm looking for is the answer: what IS Niman?  

I think touches on but then bounces off the point of Niman. In the material on the subject, the word "study" comes up quite a bit. It's my personal stance (take it with a grain of salt) that the idea is a Niman user learns not just the moves of a form but rather the principles and mechanics behind those moves. Think of a regular lightsaber duelist as a race-car driver. They can be good at what they do (moving the car fast), but that doesn't make them a mechanic. It doesn't mean they can repair/upgrade/take apart a car. Just that they can drive it. But a mechanic can come over and, in a precision act, completely debilitate a car from working. By understanding HOW the previous forms apply their philosophies and how the moves function, the Niman user builds a patchwork style of the core fundamentals of the previous forms.

If you've studied Shii-Cho, you know not to let your Shii-Cho opponent build up steam but also you know that he WANTS to build up steam. That is how he executes his style. So you either restrict his movements OR bait him into a trap using his momentum against him. Another example, for instance, in Soresu...you know he will bide his time and wait for an opening. Trying to pry INTO a Soresu user's defense is difficult, so make him come to you. Don't be aggressive OR, because you know he is looking for an opening, appear to be sloppy to draw him out. Knowing how something works means you can exploit it.

At the same time, going back to that car metaphor, understanding all the pieces in the engine doesn't compensate for the mechanic's lack of driving time compared to the driver. To apply the knowledge, you have to be sufficiently trained so that these become reflexes. There is no "thinking" during a fight. And there is (or rather, would be) a difference between "blocking in Ataru" and "blocking against Ataru", and you would have to train in both explicitly to achieve what I mentioned above.

As stated in the canon, Niman is supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades sort of style. The Ataru component of a 15-year Niman user will be weaker than that of a 15-year Ataru user, but that Ataru user is likely STUCK in Ataru while the Niman user can radically adapt. It becomes an issue of generalization vs specialization. Specialization works far better than generalization in survival IF AND ONLY IF you are in an environment that supports your specialization. As soon as conditions change, the specialists begin to die off (ex: koalas and eucalyptus) while the generalists are relatively unharmed.

At least that's my thoughts on it. The jist of what I think it is is that a Niman user is never caught with their pants down but they also never quite have the best tool for the job, just adequate ones. I'm curious to see what your response is!

[skribs]

If you've studied Shii-Cho, you know not to let your Shii-Cho opponent build up steam but also you know that he WANTS to build up steam. That is how he executes his style. So you either restrict his movements OR bait him into a trap using his momentum against him. Another example, for instance, in Soresu...you know he will bide his time and wait for an opening. Trying to pry INTO a Soresu user's defense is difficult, so make him come to you. Don't be aggressive OR, because you know he is looking for an opening, appear to be sloppy to draw him out. Knowing how something works means you can exploit it.

This makes a lot of sense to me.  The only issue I have is I was trying to find a version of Niman that works in a standalone model, where each form can be learned independently of the others.  But I guess for that to work, you would have to know the other styles in order to know how to defeat them.

[Darth Logos]

This makes a lot of sense to me.  The only issue I have is I was trying to find a version of Niman that works in a standalone model, where each form can be learned independently of the others.  But I guess for that to work, you would have to know the other styles in order to know how to defeat them.

So you're asking for a hard and fast form? I think KalSaj put it rather succinctly. Niman is more of a "next step" as opposed to a straight form. Like MMA. From my limited viewing, MMA seems to be most effective when the combatant is lean with multiple disciplines. However, if you dropped them into a boxing ring with a specific set of rules, you eliminate his adaptability and made it a liability, especially if he's up against a heavy weight.

But I do think that Niman is more a technique rather than a form. You ever notice that many saber scenes (even in TCW) don't involve an abundance of Force use? This leads me to believe that the skill necessary to focus on Force manipulation in the midst of battle is rare, and therefore Niman practitioners a rare breed. I don't think mastery of all previous forms is a requirement to learn Niman, but that the more you know the more advantageous Niman will be.

I use to paint Logos as a Niman practitioner, but further study revealed him (me) to be more of a Juyo/Vapaad practitioner.

[skribs]

Like I said, I'm looking for real-world applications of the form, so Force use doesn't really fit.  Unless you're an actual Jedi, in which case teach me how to unlock this potential.

[Master Nero Attoru]

Niman is probably the Form that gets shafted the most by the in-universe lore.  It's considered weak even among the Jedi themselves, being the predominant Form during the Prequel era when the Jedi had grown "soft" from a lack of conflict.  In the context of the Star Wars universe, it was intended to give diplomats and peacekeepers the versatility they needed to address a variety of situations.  You could defend yourself well enough in a pinch, although not to the degree of Soresu.  You could hold your own in a duel, but not as well as Makashi.

Honestly, I never much liked Niman until I started working with TPLA.  Once I started getting comfortable with their method, I gained a new appreciation for the Form.  We treat it like a capstone for the other Forms, bringing together and harmonizing all the skills learned previously.  After all, it makes good sense from a martial arts standpoint to effectively employ all facets of combat training - offense, defense, etc.  Shien does this as well to an extent, but Niman takes it a step further and goes deeper with the concepts.  I've been pretty obsessed with it lately, and want to study further, but truthfully I'm trying to sharpen my fundamentals with Shien first.

[Master Uilos]

In my research, there are two different types of ways to use Niman: to develop discipline and to survive. Niman was used by negotiators and diplomats, much like businessmen and politicians use kendo and tai chi to center themselves and keep sharp. But it needs to work, it was not a style used on the battlefield, but in the streets and offices. I see it being bery inprovisational (it took and understanding of the previous five forms and active Force use).

If you want examples of Niman analogues, watch Jackie Chan films, the Jason Bourne movies and the John Wick films. Pragmatic combat using their skills and what is around them.