To thrust or not to thrust? That is the question....

[Musashi Padawan]

We have been looking at the safety of point attacks or thrusts for a while now at our light saber school. We use heavy grade blades and treat dueling more as martial arts sparring than a sport or points system. Since thrust attacks are so natural to sword/saber traditions and techniques, we have continued to allow them to be a part of our system. However, I still have major safety concerns about point attacks to the head or body given our finite equipment. We have currently limited thrusts to only one handed attacks hoping this will promote more control and less force.
I was reading through some threads here on the forum and Althalus, Cang and others had some interesting takes on this topic. I was hoping to start another discussion to see how thrust attacks are treated at other schools. I am currently of the option that point attacks should not be allowed. I am in the minority at my school and quite honestly I am open to being swayed. I would love to hear rationals both for and against the thrust and its place in light saber sparring.

[Ander]

We don't have affondi (lunges) but we do have (in form II) semiaffondi (demi-lunges) where the hand is rotated outward to have an edge rather than tip contact.
It's a compromise, but one that we are free to make as LudoSport is not a martial art, but rather a codified combat sport.

[Taegin Roan]

I have very very limited experience with any type of self-defense, or martial arts, other than what I have taught myself, but I am of the mind to agree with you. I don't like the idea of thrusts, especially if the blades have pointed tips. I just am not trusting enough of other people and their self control to allow them to poke me with anything like swords or sticks. Maybe if I had more protective gear, I would be more willing to allow them, but I just don't like the idea of how easy it is to get hurt with one. Of course, there is a danger of getting hurt as soon as you pick up any weapon, but I like to limit to opportunities of that happening. Again, I have no experience, so this is just my opinion.

[Master Althalus]

It's funny, how lightsaber discussions resemble those I had ten years ago in HEMA ...  
Thrusting was a major concern there, also, as most groups used Shinai or wooden wasters, which have no real flex. There are two dangers to thrusting: a breaking blade and internal damage.
Using puncture resistant clothing can lessen the risk of a breaking blade - olympic fencing uses those kind of fabrics and some manufacturers also begin using them in HEMA protection.
Internal damage done by a thrust with a stick is another matter. Padding protects somewhat, but not entirely.

The thing is: Even if thrusting is allowed, it is not necessarily used in freeplay. Why is that? Because thrusting without a handguard will get your fingers smashed more often than not. Blades slide, so the parry, even if it fails, will slide down the blade an hit the fingers - and that's not even considering some counters like striking the hand on the incoming thrust. That's why we only seldom see some stickfighting styles using thrusts.  

So, yes, I do allow thrusts, but in reality, I see them less and less often. Especially with light blades (Midgrades), a thrust almost always results in a double-hit, typically one gets stabbed and the stabber gets hit on the head.

[Master Seblaise]

Sorry for that question but i think i am not able to understand/translate correctly and accurately "thrust attack" ... Can someone illustrate the concept?

[Master Althalus]

Un coup de pointe, if my poor French serves me well. 
Something you don't do in Canne. 

[Master Seblaise]

Un coup de pointe, if my poor French serves me well. 
Something you don't do in Canne. 

Ok .... Danke Schöne

In correct French, we would say :"Un coup d'Estoc"

I do not do that in Canne but I use it in Staff ... And i understand the safety issue as such a strike can make a lot of damages. The staff i practice was never codified as a sport, it is a martial art ... so there are only "friendly" assaults. When practicing (even with protection), we are very careful when striking with a thrust attack because if the opponent can not parry of dodge, we must be able to stop our move ... and it is very difficult

So, we never use thrust attacks with or against beginners ...

[Cang Snow]

Thanks for the shoutout. In Lightspeed, we go further than just banning point-attacks. We also don't allow point-in-line. Besides safety, we also do this for gameplay and aesthetic reasons.

[Ander]

Thanks for the shoutout. In Lightspeed, we go further than just banning point-attacks. We also don't allow point-in-line. Besides safety, we also do this for gameplay and aesthetic reasons.

I am not quite sure I get what you mean. Do you mean you cannot hold a guard position with the tip toward your opponent?

[Master Resolute]

When we do our Kali sparring we only allow students of Level 2 (intermediate) or higher to use any angles of attack that would be considered a thrust. That being said, a Kali thrust is much different than what most would consider a " standard " thrust. We never launch all of our weight forward. Instead, we will use a counter-balance technique that has a similar reach but does not require the practitioner to commit all of his/her weight to the attack which in turn protect the legs. This also means because the weight is not committed we can control the " flight " path and penetration a little better....dont get me wrong, if chest armor isn't on....it really hurts.

It also depends on how much safety gear we are wearing. Outside of the Academy I require anyone I spar with to wear a mask, neck protection and heavy duty hand/elbow protection and sometimes torso armor.

So yes, we use them. Typically when we are using more Lacoste method Kali.

[Master Resolute]

Shouldn't say never....rather, rarely.

[Karmack]

I am just learning Shii Cho via the TPLA system.  Two of the attacks we learn are Shim and Shiak, which are both variations on a thrusting-type of attack.  I use a face mask while dueling (fencing mask with face and neck guard) and gloves that cover my hands and fore-arms.  To date, I have experienced that about half the time if a thrusting attack is used I get hit on the gloves or the head, as others have said.  For the most part what I'm learning is that these attacks are not generally good for dueling, rather like most back-leg kicks in unarmed sparring.  They expose me to counter-attack and they also tend to get 'telegraphed'.  Now, granted, this is based on very limited training to date (I'm just a padawan! LOL) but so far most of my successful engagements have been more ... circumspect, attacking around the perimeter and especially focusing on my opponent's blade until I can generate an opening.  Thrusting in a real fighting situation would be a "finishing" move, and in sparring you almost never get to that point.

Now, should it be allowed?  I still think its worth doing.  But with these sabers, I would say you should only do it when you're using round-tips (blunt) and with good hand/wrist, head and chest protection.

[Master Nero Attoru]

Thrusts/stabs with these LED lightsabers are always dangerous, since the blades aren't designed to flex along that axis to absorb the force.  As a fencer whose primary weapons are foil and epee, you can imagine how difficult this makes my life!  IMO, the amount of gear required to allow safe thrusting becomes counterproductive, so I tend to stick to Shiim cuts (which Karmack explained above) instead.