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Author Topic: Combat theory: Force-fencing  (Read 3083 times)
Cang Snow
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« on: January 16, 2018, 09:34:30 AM »

Hey everybody. I wanted to share a bit of dueling/fencing theory with you all.

Now, as we all know, the Force gives a Jedi a certain amount of pre-cognition. That is how they are able to block blaster bolts. But it certainly must come into play in dueling as well. It is a concept used in the real world that I learned as "open eyes" and "closed eyes" fencing.

"Open eyes" fencing is the most common way to fence or duel. You observe what's happening, and you respond, offensively or defensively. It's certainly simple and intuitive.

The problem with "open eyes" is that it is always reactive. If you are not on offense then you are always a step behind your opponent. And this is where "closed eyes" fencing comes into play, or what I liked to call "Force-fencing." In Force-fencing, you do not react to what you see with your eyes, but instead PRE-ACT to what you see with your mind. In other words, you react to something that hasn't happened yet, based on what you ANTICIPATE will hapen. Force-fencing can lead to some truly spectacular actions.... and some miserable failures, as well.



Now to be sure: Force fencing doesn't have to mean taking a wild guess. In the GIF, the example in which I disarmed my opponent is probably my best example. As the encounter began, I observed my opponent was holding a chambered guard on his outside line. So of course his most logical attack would be a lateral cut to my flank. But he could certainly change targets. How did I know he'd still take the shot? I rushed him. When your opponent is sufficiently pressured, he will revert to his instincts rather than his cognition. So I knew if I could make him panic, I'd know his target. And the gambit paid off. I parried in quarte BEFORE I saw the attack. The parry was timed perfectly as to produce the maximum amount of force against his weapon, and he lost it.

So how about you? Have you "used The Force" in your dueling? Please share with us your best stories, proudest moments, and most embarrassing bad guesses XD And if you haven't tried out this theory, please go try it and let us know what happens Cheesy
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Musashi Padawan
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2018, 08:16:51 PM »

Awesome post and topic! I love breaking down those micro second reactions into philosophies that can be studied, applied and practiced. I have posted before on the Kendo concept of Sansappo or the three ways of making an opening;
-kill the technique (parry and counter strike)
-kill the sword (move the sword out of the way and strike)
-kill the spirit (aggressively take away distance or the opponent’s center and strike)
What you are describing clearly falls into that last category of “killing the spirit”.  Hearing a fencing take on a similar concept in terms of open and closed eyes is very interesting. And as you indicated, a lot more goes into that PRE-ACT than just a wild charge. It’s a reaction based on experience with either one particular opponent or many opponents over time that allows one to time that dramatic, seemingly psychic anticipation. Killing the spirit in Kendo terms also involves “infecting” one’s opponent with the “4 sicknesses” of surprise, fear, doubt and hesitation, what you described as a panicked opponent becoming predicable in your example.
I always have the most difficulty explaining this last concept of killing the spirit to create an opening to newer students because it is so... well... using the force! It really is seeing what will happen before it happens- a Jedi trait. Not just mere quick reflexes. This ability of pre-cognition in combat has probably been consodered for as long as people have been fighting. Miyamoto Musashi wrote in The Five Rings, “Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.”
So yes, I try to “use the force” every time I duel. It has guided me to my most dramatic of successes and some truly epic failures.
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wandering-seeker
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2018, 03:13:51 PM »

I can't speak for fighting with my eyes closed, either with weapons or (where I have much more experience) with empty hand. But in my experience as a fighter over the last 10 years is that there's a space that I can go to where I'm able to know what my opponent is going to do before they've even committed to their action. Could call it the Force, or just really good reflexes, (I avoid looking directly at my opponents) but I've had a lot of fights where I either never get hit at all, or only get hit once because I can move or react faster than my opponent can commit to an attack or block.
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Karmack
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 04:26:18 PM »

I can't speak for fighting with my eyes closed, either with weapons or (where I have much more experience) with empty hand. But in my experience as a fighter over the last 10 years is that there's a space that I can go to where I'm able to know what my opponent is going to do before they've even committed to their action. Could call it the Force, or just really good reflexes, (I avoid looking directly at my opponents) but I've had a lot of fights where I either never get hit at all, or only get hit once because I can move or react faster than my opponent can commit to an attack or block.

My instructor calls this "experience".  :-)  We learn combat movement and spend a lot of time sparring.  Eventually you learn the movements well enough that your sub-conscious picks up on the subtle shifts and sets that come from an opponent "setting up" for a particular type of move.  It works far better, for instance, when the other guy goes for something fancy or a "knock-out" kind of attack, like a back-leg "round house" round kick or a side kick.  Other things like quick jabs from a front-hand can be very fast and are far less likely to be anticipated or intercepted - unless you fall into a pattern.

And that's the other component.  Be careful with this kind of technique if you're only using it with people you duel or spar all the time, and train with besides.  It WILL NOT work against someone from a radically different form or technique, or at least not nearly as well.

My experience is that, as a black belt and instructor, I can anticipate like this with my students and peers, even my instructors.  When I get into a cross-training scenario with folks from another school, though...  Not so much.  Though the experience still helps me to anticipate, but its not as instinctive and more often only partially right or totally wrong...
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wandering-seeker
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 05:03:16 PM »



And that's the other component.  Be careful with this kind of technique if you're only using it with people you duel or spar all the time, and train with besides.  It WILL NOT work against someone from a radically different form or technique, or at least not nearly as well.

My experience is that, as a black belt and instructor, I can anticipate like this with my students and peers, even my instructors.  When I get into a cross-training scenario with folks from another school, though...  Not so much.  Though the experience still helps me to anticipate, but its not as instinctive and more often only partially right or totally wrong...

I've had pretty good luck with it against other people from other schools. Though with people I haven't fought before or watched fight someone else I've learned that I need to get hit once before I can start reliably falling into that reflexive state and getting it right.
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Karmack
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 06:39:57 PM »

I've had pretty good luck with it against other people from other schools. Though with people I haven't fought before or watched fight someone else I've learned that I need to get hit once before I can start reliably falling into that reflexive state and getting it right.

Good point.  One reason I prefer timed rounds to "point" sparring.  :-)
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Mimiaga
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 09:04:12 PM »

My duel mask hinders my vision to a certain degree. I've blocked strikes that I couldn't see before. That sort of thing comes with experience, and even more so with familiar opponents. We have the same group of about 6-7 people each time we get together to fight, so you learn peoples habits. I know person A is more defensive, person B likes to stay on the attack, person C swings hay-makes and runs out of steam. After a while some duels will play out the same way multiple times. You can predict the way they'll go and use that to your advantage.
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Musashi Padawan
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2018, 02:44:22 AM »

Cang inspired me to find a "Force using" moment. Here I anticipate not one but two strikes. I am able to "kill the technique" landing solid hits on both of my opponent's wrists without getting hit. 
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Illyiss
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2018, 03:14:11 AM »

So, when fighting with sticks (sabers really qualify as sticks if we are breaking down the movements), there are a finite number of places an attack originating from a basic start point, along a basic vector can go (outside of changing directions or feints, which is the point of them).  By training enough, you can train your brain to see the move start, know the vector it's taking, and place a basic block in the way, or move from it's path.  Now, to do this, you pay attention to the moment, but allow your senses reign, don't focus on one sense, one point.  Let your subconscious take charge of acting with muscle memory.  If you just allow yourself to be present in the moment, but not taking brain power away from letting it do what it's trained to do, reflexes take on an almost precognitive quality and speed.  The same thing eventually applies to reacting to feints and redirection, there are only so many possibilities, and once the movement starts, there are block points that stop, or counter them.  It looks damned impressive when done, and it really is. 
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Cang Snow
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« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2018, 12:30:48 AM »

Feels great doesn't it MP?  Grin
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