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Author Topic: Sound cost  (Read 2567 times)
FlibbleJibblet
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« on: February 11, 2018, 10:35:07 PM »

I'm hoping this doesn't come across as a complaint, it certainly isn't intended as such, just genuinely confused.

Whilst I can't afford them now, I'm looking for sabers for both myself and my son; fairness dictates they are the same feature wise, and whilst I adore what diamond can do, double that cost is near enough a grand! (and that's before I consider what UK import tax might do - something else I need to research)
Anyway, I'm confused by the terms of pricing.
The hilts and technology look great and clearly take some skilled work, yet some are as cheap as $55.
Yet the cost for just adding "basic sound" is roughly $100 dollars extra. I find this really odd. I count 37 hilts with blades as under $100 (admittedly not with options etc), and these are complete lightsabers with beautiful hilt work etc. I would imagine adding sound would be a bit more, maybe $20-$30, but it is closer to double the cost again on some hilts.
I'm baffled as to why? A printed circuit board, speaker and a bit of wiring cost much, much more than the whole aluminum-crafted hilt, lightsaber blade and lighting system combined?

Ultimately, if I do go with sound, as I'd like, the price difference up to premium v4 obsidian seems rather small once you've already made the jump to basic sound, so would go for that, but I still find the first "jump" to sound rather baffling.

(similarly, emerald looks great, but the price jump is HUGE - but again, not very much more (relatively) for diamond, so would definitely go diamond if I had funds for emerald)
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2018, 10:44:54 PM »

The added cost more comes from what goes into the soundboards, as well as the added difficulty in installing them in order to make sure everything works.
Installing a working soundboard isn't easy.
Of course, you add the development of their proprietary software and boards, it begins to add up
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tx_tuff
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« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 09:09:07 AM »

Google search done sound boards and you will see the cost for yourself. It is much more then $20 to $30 dollars. On top of that working with electronics is not easy and the right tools are not cheap. It isn't cheap to pay employees.

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DaddyFlip
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« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2018, 09:53:41 AM »

And it is clear from the last holiday season that US is not charging enough as demand still outstrips supply nearing Valentines Day! Fair market pricing, or what the free market will bear, determines how much is charged. US is not obligated to give you what you want at the price you want to pay, nor or they obligated to charge you at or near cost for the features you want. Sabers are luxury items, not essential.

Now off soapbox, I am pretty sure you and your son would enjoy even LITE sound sabers as much as Diamond for your first. A couple of Initiates with AV switches, heavy blades, and FoC in the color of your choice would run $500 USD. Spinning, deuling, poking each other in the rear; imagine hours and hours of enjoyment. If it were cheap and easy, you wouldn't want it.
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FlibbleJibblet
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« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 10:17:09 AM »

Yes, they are of course right to charge as they are fit, and the products are clearly excellent. Let me reiterate; I am in no way complaining, I literally just find it curious.
Wouldn’t even cross my mind if ratio were different, I.e. a $160 basic sound one was $130 for silent stunt and $30 more for sound, just genuinely baffles me the sound costs more than the actual Saber (for many, not all).


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DaddyFlip
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 02:01:02 PM »

Yes. You should get into the luxury watch hobby where people wonder how Patek Phillipe charges $100,000 for what Seiko charges $500; or $100. And why Rolex is not a high end watch. And so on....

It's the sound that makes it a "real" saber. So while you may can mark up the hilt 2x and the light 3x, the sound can be marked up 10x over cost. That's just an illustration, of course.
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DarthBoneTD
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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 02:18:49 PM »

Labor and Demand my friend. People want sound (most of the time), the cost of programable soundboards/LED control boards on there own are usually more than double the cost of most basic saber hilts. Installing them takes time and like your mechanic the more time the more labor cost involved. As in basic sound, to get a good battle ready saber (I choose a Dark Senitinel V4 as an example) with flash on clash/sound/ heavy grade blade/ & A/V switch will come to about $235. Compare that to $100 for the stunt w/ HG blade and A/V. So for $135 You get FOC and sound. That's pretty good in this market.
And so on with premium sound, emerald, & diamond. The more you put in the more the labor/parts cost. Hope this helps.
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 03:12:34 PM »

(and that's before I consider what UK import tax might do - something else I need to research)


Just on that point, Import Tax for France is around 30 Euro (36 US$) for a 100 US$ saber ... You have to search of UK taxes as it can be a "bad" surprise when it comes Wink

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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2018, 05:25:41 PM »

Yes, they are of course right to charge as they are fit, and the products are clearly excellent. Let me reiterate; I am in no way complaining, I literally just find it curious.
Wouldn’t even cross my mind if ratio were different, I.e. a $160 basic sound one was $130 for silent stunt and $30 more for sound, just genuinely baffles me the sound costs more than the actual Saber (for many, not all).


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Actually, the cost differential isn't as you described.

The only $55 hilt is the MOST basic, the V2 Initiate.  And it cannot be upgraded to sound due to the smaller internal diameter of the hilt./

The V3 Initiate, the next lowest in cost, is base price $60.  That's for a Stunt.

What I think of as the "basic" saber, the Aeon, in the V4 config, Stunt with basic color, no upgrades, and WITH the windows would be $75.

Now, in comparison, the extremely popular Guardian hilt, Stunt, with basic color, no upgrades, is $169.00. 

What you'll find is that there's a sharp "break" between "simple" sabers - hilts that are essentially made on a lathe without a lot of other details - and the more complex sabers like the Guardian or Emperor's Hand which require multiple pieces or detailed machining or just a lot of extra operations to make.  The "simple" hilts that are sound capable range from $60 to $120 dollars.  The complex are $140 all the way to $244. 

These are all stunts.

As for sound....

The cost of sound is wrapped up in the card itself, the extra wiring and electronics, and the battery system.  But you're looking at Diamond (which is both sound and LED color driver) and despairing.  I get that, Diamond is the absolute top-of-the-line.  So lets look at the basic sound - the Obsidian Lite.

Using the Dominix LE V4 as my base (because I love that hilt) the difference between the stunt version and the Obsidian Lite version is indeed exactly $100.
Premium Sound jumps the price an additional $40 for V3 or $50 for V4. 

(I'm not going to get into Emerald or Diamond!  LOL)

So, what's the difference?  Glad you asked.  :-)
First, there's a LOT of extra wiring required, so some of this is just labor.  But the extra bits: a momentary switch instead of a latching switch.  The sound card itself.  And a battery pack with speaker to give the sound voice.

In the "build your own" section, the battery / speaker chassis is $18.50.  The switches cost the same, so they're not a factor in the cost.  That means they're charging you $81.50 for the Obsidian Lite board itself AND the extra labor to build and install it.  So, assuming a skilled worker can do one of these in an hour of extra work over a stunt, they're really charging you about $65 for the board itself.  Or about half the cost of the Obsidian USB board (V3/V4)

And most equivalent boards are going to run you about the same price, buying them online somewhere.  More, really, most I see are between $85 and $100.

So US is passing on some of the economy of scale they get by making so many of these for us.   :-)

Now: You're doing "Father and Son" sabers on a budget.  You want sound and goodies.   Let me make a recommendation:

Saber 1: Dominix V4 LE with Obsidian Lite sound and windows in Sun Rider's Destiny (Jedi color) or Tri-Cree Blazing Red (Sith color). 
Saber 2: Aeon V4 LE with Obsidian Lite sound and windows in Arctic Blue (Jedi color) or Fire Orange (Sith color).

Or, if you really don't know what color you'd like: Get them in Tri-Cree Adegan Silver wtih the color disks, and then order a Lee Filter's swatch book to make custom color filters.  I do this with my Dark Catalysts.  Its not quite as flexible as a Diamond or Emerald controller, but its a LOT cheaper, which is important when you're on a tight budget.

Anyway, I do hope this helps, especially understanding the true costs of upgrading.  I've tried it once myself.  While it was fun, I ended up paying more for the components than it would have cost to get them from the beginning, and I still had to do the work! 

Whatever you decide, you'll love these sabers.  Enjoy them and happy sabering!
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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2018, 05:38:04 PM »

It's jarring at first, I completely understand.  When I entered this hobby, it bummed me out that I couldn't afford just about ANY decent sound-equipped hilts (back in college).  I'll say this, though... Ultrasabers has come a LONG way since then.  At this point, you now have a variety of options for different budgets, whereas back then the only sound option were repurposed Force FX boards.  Ultimately, the soundboard itself plus the install labor is what adds up, resulting in the price point you see.  It still shocks me, in fact, that they can manage to offer a sound upgrade for only $100, considering how long it has taken me in the past to install soundboards.
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FlibbleJibblet
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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2018, 07:24:57 PM »

Thanks for all your help everyone, especially Karmak (have my first ever force point gift). That breakdown does make it more understandable. Interestingly I showed my son the range of hilts and asked him to pick his favourite from the whole list and his favourite from $100 and under, for the cheaper range he chose the Aeon you mentioned (although he picked V4) in guardian blue (is arctic better? Looks more washed out\white).
Still lots of other options to think about, not least the tri colour setup. Hopefully someone will have one at our club so we can see the difference. Cost isn’t the issue assuming you can see the difference in brightness, the loss of the flash on clash feature is.

I still think that if we go for sound, getting v4 premium seems sensible over lite. Whilst I need a bit more reading up, it seems far better, especially as both him and I love programming and setting things up with computers.
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2018, 07:40:34 PM »

Thanks for all your help everyone, especially Karmak (have my first ever force point gift). That breakdown does make it more understandable. Interestingly I showed my son the range of hilts and asked him to pick his favourite from the whole list and his favourite from $100 and under, for the cheaper range he chose the Aeon you mentioned (although he picked V4) in guardian blue (is arctic better? Looks more washed out\white).
Still lots of other options to think about, not least the tri colour setup. Hopefully someone will have one at our club so we can see the difference. Cost isn’t the issue assuming you can see the difference in brightness, the loss of the flash on clash feature is.

I still think that if we go for sound, getting v4 premium seems sensible over lite. Whilst I need a bit more reading up, it seems far better, especially as both him and I love programming and setting things up with computers.


From the sounds of it, you're definitely on the right track.  If you're willing to pay the extra money, the Obsidian (Premium) V4 will allow you a great deal of customization with sound fonts.  Just FYI, the difference between Guardian Blue and Arctic Blue is that GB is made using a single die LED, whereas Arctic Blue is a mixed color created using an RGB (Red, Green, and Blue) LED.  Ultrasabers uses the green and blue dies on the RGB star to make a mixed color that ends up an icy blue hue, hence the name.  Guardian Blue is somewhat darker in hue.

Example (Anakin showing GB, Luke showing AB):

   

Also, if you wanted to get him something along the same lines but smaller, the Initiate V4 is essentially the shorter version of the Aeon V4.  It's still completely reasonable for adult hands, even with two hands on the hilt - I quite like that particular design, in fact!  Just a thought.
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2018, 09:31:04 PM »

Thanks for all your help everyone, especially Karmak (have my first ever force point gift). That breakdown does make it more understandable. Interestingly I showed my son the range of hilts and asked him to pick his favourite from the whole list and his favourite from $100 and under, for the cheaper range he chose the Aeon you mentioned (although he picked V4) in guardian blue (is arctic better? Looks more washed out\white).
Still lots of other options to think about, not least the tri colour setup. Hopefully someone will have one at our club so we can see the difference. Cost isn’t the issue assuming you can see the difference in brightness, the loss of the flash on clash feature is.

I still think that if we go for sound, getting v4 premium seems sensible over lite. Whilst I need a bit more reading up, it seems far better, especially as both him and I love programming and setting things up with computers.

Nero's points are spot-on. I've had GB and AB, I personally prefer the AB color, it looks brighter to the eye because of the mixed color spectrum but in the end its really a matter of preference.  Blue is also available in Tri-Cree, which ups the overall intensity and brightness quite a bit, but you can't do FoC. 

I agree with Nero on the sound, too.  If you can afford it the Obsidian V4 is the way to go.  I have a couple of Obsidian Lite cards and they sound great but they're stock.  No mods at all.  The V4 you can modify quite a bit, and it also has a "mute" font that allows you to turn the sound completely off if you'd like to swing the saber around and not disturb anyone.  :-)

As for the hilts...  I love the Aeon V4.  My "all up" hilt is an Aeon V4 with windows, with an Obsidian V4 sound card and the Emerald card installed.  I've done a little modification.  Mainly it has dark rings painted on instead of the gold LE, and an Archon pommel.  This is a picture, on the wall next to my Guardian, for comparison. Honestly, I like it better than the Guardian, and the Aeon is one of the top three handling hilts that US sells.  :-)

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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2018, 09:48:05 PM »

My sound mute is a closed end pommel haha
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2018, 09:51:37 PM »

I still think that if we go for sound, getting v4 premium seems sensible over lite. Whilst I need a bit more reading up, it seems far better, especially as both him and I love programming and setting things up with computers.

While i did post a link to this in the review section of the forum, you might find a video i recently did where i directly compared the Obsidian Vs Obsidian Lite helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em8x5vMT7sk
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Dark Initiate V4 (with Full Obsidian & emerald driver)

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