Master A. says: The Seven Forms are BS!

[Master Althalus]

Hopefully most people will know Master Ken and his Enter the Dojo YT-show, so the joke is not entirely lost. 
But in the best tradition of Master Ken, I say: "The Seven Forms are BS!"

1. Imagine an order of warrior-diplomats, that exists over millenia (that's in itself somewhat BSitsh, but let's not delve into this) and teaches mostly in a strict teacher-pupil way (or knight-squire). And now imagine how sound it would be that each and every pupil has to learn 6 (six!) different methods to use the same weapon until he/she may aspire to knighthood.
2. The sixth of the so-called Forms is described as used by diplomats who don't have that much time to train in combat. It's basically something of a best-of - why learn the other forms at all, when there's one that obviously works fine with less effort?
3. Every form has a different mindset ... so every pupil has to work through different mindsets as he progresses? And every mindset comes with different ways of fighting with the same weapon?
4. Every knight has his/her own fighting style - that's fine, but wouldn't it be logical that the pupil would learn THIS style only until his own knighthood, where he could go and learn from different masters? Doing it the other way round suggests knights being promoted that have only a very rough understanding of six different methods - without any solid base in even one of them.
5. The seventh Form is the personal invention of one master and the only difference seems to be a philosophical one - so, why is it a different Form? Futhermore it is never taught ...

That said, all this Seven Forms thing doesn't make any sense at all (one of many things that didn't in the old EU).

So, I know that TPLA and others have tried to implement this nonsense into something actually usable. In some regard like HEMA, trying to make those things work - the problem is, that the 'source' in this case is flawed. Kudos to them for their difficult work!

But what I'm seeing increasingly often on this forum is a kind of reverse-engineering. People doing something and looking for a canonical form to justify what they are doing. "I'm doing X and Y, so I think my style is Form IV."
That's where those Forms get to be a pain in the a**.

It's not important if what someone's doing looks like Shii-Cho or Soresu (because there's not even any kind of source that defines what these things should look like) - it's important if it does two things:
1. Keeping the practitioner safe - getting hit constantly in a duel is a good hint that something's not working right.
2. Being efficent - getting tired just from moving around, without any serious attack is a sign of either really low fitness or a method that wastes energy.

So, if you're training to actually duel - don't hang your mind on those Forms. Focus on basic things like defending, moving, distance, etc.
If you're doing staged fights, you can try to incorporate the Forms as ways to define a character.
If you're doing spinning, you can do whatever you like. 

But first define your goal with sabering. It'll make progress a lot easier.

[Musashi Padawan]

Amen!  Brilliant Master A.  The only thing you left out was a drop the mic at the end.

[Master Medwyn]

Master A. the Myth Buster!
Certainly your topic offers a solid ground for an interesting discussion, let me humbly join with a few thoughts!

Applying "sense" on a lore which is based on an extensive, not necessarily consensualized sci-fi/fantasy setting is a firm opening on the chess board
As I recall the 7 forms in more details are part of the so called "expanded universe" created by X author and patched up, modified, further detailed by Y,Z,Q authors. They were writers and however a good one collects a lot of information on the subjects before starting to type anything, still, the written materials are only concepts of the mind, philosophies, frameworks of a content which can be further extended infintely.
The 7 forms for me are therefore rather symbols of a concept to which a lot of minds had contributed in the past decades, some of which are canonized, others are not.
I'm quite late in the game appearing as a "practicioner" of any lightsaber combat (simple reasons: the "broomstick-era" or more elegantly the "pre-Ultrasaber" era in my life wasn't that charming to delve deeper into any concepts related to the SW universe ) but how I approached to the 7 forms was rather based on the phylosophy, the symbols.

When I think about how they developed on the lore like "when only Force users used lightsabers" through "others also started using it" and "now blasters have been shot at the lightsaber users too" until "let's have a dance in which I let my darker self released too but also controlled", etc. it makes some sense to me. Of course there was no proper handbook of techniques described on how to use a saber in Form this or that - and that's where the trap lies as you mentioned to cross-use phylosophy on martial arts to justify a certain practice. Sometimes even those brilliant graphical artist who paint beautiful covers for books are making a bunch of charming mistakes on where on the hilt to hold that saber or sword and so which makes me think that they just ENJOY the whole lot of imaginative content they are working on.

TPLA and others who try to bring the phylosophy or the concept alive are heroic animators with a task can not be fully done outright as there's actually no consensus on what's what other than vague descriptions in a novel or indirect information in another. What they can do is to try to be creative on how to choreograph these concepts using their martial arts knowledge. As the original concept is like an ementali cheese full of holes, the whole implementation will always be subject of a debate where the interpreting sense will always find ground to wedge in and question further. That may help to develop it further but it's a fininte possibility so doubt will always win.
Technically. Because the riddle I belive can only be solved in the interpreting mind.

If there's a will to look at the 7 forms as lore material and a hazy framework of a concept which can be used to build some credible-looking interpretation on it with a lightsaber and call it a dollar, then fun will be endless
Since we don't have blasters, and Force also seems to have a job in some other universe, we are left with symbols, dance, music which all just trying to bring us closer to the divine but will never do that fully.

So yes, I agree, the 7 forms as we know lack a lot of sense.
Our decison on the other can also be to switch those senses off where they don't serve our life, grab a saber and let imagination do the rest
I'm now excited to hear other opinions on this subject!

TLDR:
An alternative solution could be to learn DEK materials, there are only 6 forms so there's a chance to save one "nonsense"

[Master Nero Attoru]

There is one arena in which the Seven Forms make complete sense... and that's storytelling.  They were retrofitted to major characters in the Prequels, which essentially indicates that their only function is to externalize the mental state of characters.  With the exception of Yoda's use of Ataru, which was obviously done to allow the small Jedi Master to engage larger enemies, this holds true for every main user of every Form.  Anakin is known to use Djem So, which essentially demonstrates his propensity towards aggression and utilizing his physical power.  Obi-Wan is basically the model Jedi, with his preference for diplomacy over violence, so this is shown with the defensive Soresu.  Count Dooku was portrayed as an arrogant noble, so Makashi became a "fencing inspired" Form to play on our stereotypes of the classic villains from swashbuckling films.

Now, I think it's foolish to slave ourselves to these Forms in the context of artistry.  If you want to create a character and demonstrate certain characteristics, you should do so in your own way.  I recommend using the Forms as an example rather than a strict guide, in order to get yourself started on such ventures.

Of course, when it comes to combat... I gotta agree with Master Althalus all the way.  With TPLA, the Seven Forms are training methods, but outside of that I've never found them to make much sense in practicality.

[Master Althalus]

They were retrofitted to major characters in the Prequels, which essentially indicates that their only function is to externalize the mental state of characters.

Nick Gillard said in an interview, that it was probably him, who began this thing. Actually he had sort of level-system in mind, to scale the skill of the characters. But that system had 9 levels, 9 being only reachable as a 'cheat' by going to the Dark Side. Somewhere along the line, this concept became what we know as the 7 Forms ...

I don't know how much influence the old WEG roleplaying game had in this regard, but the forms certainly where in the KotOR games.

What bugs me is a kind of 'dependance' on those forms. Hey, there's a looooong thread on them here, and a lot of tries to fit real-world martial arts within these fictional forms.

IMHO, if people would give things like footwork, distance, ... as much thought as they seem to do with those forms, we would see better fights.

Disclaimer: I'm speaking from a martial point of view only - performance of any kind follows its own rules.

[Master Seblaise]

I will add my 2 cents

I agree with Master Nero, the seven Forms were designed for movies, to fit with characters personality and to provide spectacular and choreographed fightings.

BUT, they can also be seen as different cultural approaches of fighting. I will try to explain my though:

Let's take a staff, just a simple staff. There are not thousands possibilities to strike with a staff. Let's have a look on this 3 vids:

The French approach

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=625kpmKILlU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=625kpmKILlU</a>

The English approach

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMWnlQJ4Gr8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMWnlQJ4Gr8</a>

And the Chinese approach (Wushu for instance)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-emz3fv4_o" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-emz3fv4_o</a>

As we can see, on this 3 vids, fighters have the same weapon, a staff, and use approximatively the same strikes ... But there are differences between the moves, the energy and the relative position between fighters.

So, we have same weapon, same strikes but different cultural (philosophical??) approaches of the fighting.

So, now, imagine an infinity of alien species from every parts of the galaxy ... Alien species with different cultures and different anatomies ... I think we can obviously imagine that they can have very different approaches of fighting, even if they have the same weapon.

I know i am wrong considering SW lores but to me, the different forms can also illustrate that point ... there is different cultural approaches of the fighting using a lightsaber.

  

 

[Master Althalus]

So, we have same weapon, same strikes but different cultural (philosophical??) approaches of the fighting.

Good point - wouldn't there be the PROGRESS through the forms. So, basically, SW lore tells us, that in about 16 years, a Jedi learns 6 different ways to use his lightsaber. Like, say, learning Kenjutsu, Tai-chi sword, Escrima, Spanish Destreza, German longsword and French foil.
I know I'm slow, but I couldn't do this in just 16 or maybe 18 years - at least not in any way I would consider 'sufficent' (and as it looks, most Padawans get to travel a lot).

[Master Seblaise]

Good point - wouldn't there be the PROGRESS through the forms. So, basically, SW lore tells us, that in about 16 years, a Jedi learns 6 different ways to use his lightsaber. Like, say, learning Kenjutsu, Tai-chi sword, Escrima, Spanish Destreza, German longsword and French foil.
I know I'm slow, but I couldn't do this in just 16 or maybe 18 years - at least not in any way I would consider 'sufficent' (and as it looks, most Padawans get to travel a lot).

I forgot to say that i agree with you on that point

For me forms are cultural ... so it is "stupid" to imagine an order that would train pupils with 6 different forms

[Master Nero Attoru]

Nick Gillard said in an interview, that it was probably him, who began this thing. Actually he had sort of level-system in mind, to scale the skill of the characters. But that system had 9 levels, 9 being only reachable as a 'cheat' by going to the Dark Side. Somewhere along the line, this concept became what we know as the 7 Forms ...

I don't know how much influence the old WEG roleplaying game had in this regard, but the forms certainly where in the KotOR games.

What bugs me is a kind of 'dependance' on those forms. Hey, there's a looooong thread on them here, and a lot of tries to fit real-world martial arts within these fictional forms.

IMHO, if people would give things like footwork, distance, ... as much thought as they seem to do with those forms, we would see better fights.

Disclaimer: I'm speaking from a martial point of view only - performance of any kind follows its own rules.

You're absolutely right about dependence, and I personally think performance would only benefit from the inclusion of more martial training.  Learning a real weapon art will give you a strong foundation that can make it vastly easier to choreograph fights, as well as make them visually more impressive.

Good point - wouldn't there be the PROGRESS through the forms. So, basically, SW lore tells us, that in about 16 years, a Jedi learns 6 different ways to use his lightsaber. Like, say, learning Kenjutsu, Tai-chi sword, Escrima, Spanish Destreza, German longsword and French foil.
I know I'm slow, but I couldn't do this in just 16 or maybe 18 years - at least not in any way I would consider 'sufficent' (and as it looks, most Padawans get to travel a lot).

Lore varies, but IIRC, most Jedi would commit to a single Form by the time they reached Padawan level.  Beyond that, they would typically train in that form specifically, except in specific cases like Niman which bring in multiple concepts from various Forms.  Of course, this points out how absurd it is to train exclusively in one style that emphasizes one aspect of combat such as attack or defense...

[Master Althalus]

Learning a real weapon art will give you a strong foundation that can make it vastly easier to choreograph fights, as well as make them visually more impressive.

I second that (and third, fourth ...  )!
I've tried a litte experiment with my HEMA-students last year, where I made them arrange a litte stage fight one vs. two. I just gave them the initial attack and defence and let them develop the fight from there onward. In about 45 min they had choreographed a fight that not only made sense in a martial way, but also looked way cooler than most fights in GoT.  From there it would have been just a matter of rehearsal to get it into a full-blown scene.

[Master Seblaise]

Learning a real weapon art will give you a strong foundation that can make it vastly easier to choreograph fights, as well as make them visually more impressive.

Seconded .... and more

[Darth Nonymous]

“The best way to loose an argument is to overstate it.”


First off, I agree with the frustration of people saying “I do Makashi, or “That’s obviously Soresu”. This is because these forms don’t exist. They are fictional constructs developed for narrative and world building. They have no actual contend beside what folks like us at TPLA put under those terms.

Does that make them BS? Only so far as we are willing to call “Tom Sawyer”, “The Iliad”, or “Lord of the Rings” BS. The more appropriate term would be fictional. BS carries with it the assertion that there is a fast one being pulled. Since we should all be in on the joke,  BS is a huge over statement.

However, many of the arguments laid out are in fact, errors. Errors I think in perspective. Placing fictional things in a real world context does take some work, but analogues can be found fairly easily if one is open to them. At TPLA we use the Forms as progressions through basic skills, strategies and application. As one skill builds, one is able to try more diverse things in free play. The differences in these levels corresponds quite nicely with the idea of the Forms, which should be seen as layperson descriptions of martial arts. There are many inconsistencies, myths, and misconceptions contained in the Forms as written. Just as in real life. Iwill outline some point by point.

But in the best tradition of Master Ken, I say: "The Seven Forms are BS!”

Let me take a moment to state that I am are the Master Ken is a parody Channel and that his BS point are all tounge in cheek. I am responding to this thread not as if I was to Master Ken, but to someone who is making a serious argument about the place of the Seven Forms.

Imagine an order of warrior-diplomats, that exists over millenia (that's in itself somewhat BSitsh, but let's not delve into this) and teaches mostly in a strict teacher-pupil way (or knight-squire). And now imagine how sound it would be that each and every pupil has to learn 6 (six!) different methods to use the same weapon until he/she may aspire to knighthood.

Yes, lets. An order that has existed over that amount of time will have few if any members that contain a concise and full historical and evolutional record. By the time of the prequels, I was to understand that most people were only vaguely trained in lightsaber and until the clone wars, didn’t have much to do beside block blaster bolts. So, the terms and “styles” would have gained a fair amount of mythology and public or novice descriptions of them. This accounts for the rather provincial way the martial arts art depicted in the fiction. So, it’s not really 6 different methods, its different components of the same method. Thew writers of he fiction equivocate a lot of terms like style, form, etc.

2. The sixth of the so-called Forms is described as used by diplomats who don't have that much time to train in combat. It's basically something of a best-of - why learn the other forms at all, when there's one that obviously works fine with less effort?

As stated above, in the fictional universe, lightsaber was an anachronism already. Jedi were the only one who carried them around. It is analogous to the late Edo period in Japan where the various schools and families that used to be the military might were reduced to indolent “dojo rats” who just sparred with shiny etc. This was a popular position  at the time, but not the whole truth.

3. Every form has a different mindset ... so every pupil has to work through different mindsets as he progresses? And every mindset comes with different ways of fighting with the same weapon?

I don’t know about you but in my decades of teaching I can identify some vary distinct mindsets a learner will go through. Systematizing them has as much validity as anything else.

But another way to look at it is that they are methods that originate in different contexts. Battlefield sword techniques will differ considerably from ones intended for the duel. Within the Star Wars universe, there are many way this can be applied.

And also, as mentioned, there are cultural and folk distinctions borne of region, society and culture. Differing methods and ways of looking at things are common place in activities like martial arts.

4. Every knight has his/her own fighting style - that's fine, but wouldn't it be logical that the pupil would learn THIS style only until his own knighthood, where he could go and learn from different masters? Doing it the other way round suggests knights being promoted that have only a very rough understanding of six different methods - without any solid base in even one of them.

Not if the Order had an agreed upon curriculum by which different teachers could bring people through al the necessary skills to a predictable level.  Again, this is the premise TPLA uses and it was taken from the effort of the Jing Wu Society and the National GuoShu Association of Republican era China.

5. The seventh Form is the personal invention of one master and the only difference seems to be a philosophical one - so, why is it a different Form? Futhermore it is never taught …

I cannot believe you have not heard of martial arts in the real world that claim similar things. This is added to add realism to the Forms because there are legends about them. Fiction about fiction.

That said, all this Seven Forms thing doesn't make any sense at all (one of many things that didn't in the old EU). 

But it does make sense if you treat the information right. The fictional accounts of the forms are very similar to outside observer commentary on real fights and battles. The uninitiated come up with lots of incongruent explanations. Making the sense out of it is what we humans do.

So, I know that TPLA and others have tried to implement this nonsense into something actually usable. In some regard like HEMA, trying to make those things work - the problem is, that the 'source' in this case is flawed. Kudos to them for their difficult work!

Thanks, It just takes an open mind and some imagination.

Basically, The Seven Forms are our inherited mythological background. You are free to work within it or without it but a statement of judgement is not really appropriate. After all, everything that is said about the seven Forms is said about a real martial art somewhere. If some one is telling you they are an 18 year master of Makashi, THAT is BS. But the fact that the Forms in a general idealogical space is just a fact of this thing and one must make passing references to them, even if it is to go a different way.

The Seven Forms are fictional. Don't think you can learn anything about fighting from watching the movies or reading the Jedi Path. These Forms are not even flushed out in the fiction. But they are for better or worse, the closest thing to a lineage lightsaber people can. And they provide a convenient frame work in which to place existing exercises and training methods.

In the end all martial arts are BS anyway.

[Darth Logos]

POINTS, DN.

I like how you stopped to think about the truths about this subject. Of course the 7 "forms" are BS.....they are all left to fan interpretation. Honestly, the closest thing I've seen officially marketed that even hints at what each form is about was the Jedi Path. It only gave brief and vague descriptions of how each form is characterized. My question is, why are we even arguing about it? Do you want to novels to be instructional manuals on to use a fictional weapon in a real world setting, or do you want them to tell a story?

I wouldn't go so far as to say each form is a progression, but I thank you for bringing to light that certain forms became 'academic'; Makashi comes forefront to mind. Makashi is generally accepted as the form that focuses on saber to saber combat. With the Sith "extinct", the only real need anyone would have for knowing Makashi would be to counter fallen Jedi. And training in a form to counter another saber wielder seems a little too pessimistic for the Jedi. The only other reason to know it is to simply know it. (Like English majors. The only practical purpose for knowing that much about English is to teach it.)

From my research, Niman is what is predominantly used by the Jedi of the Prequel era, as its diversity was able to account for the majority of situations that the average Jedi would be faced with. Certain forms might have been learned/taught depending on an individuals strengths/needs. Like Yoda is characterized as being an Ataru (Form 4) practitioner. This would make sense as his diminutive stature would limit his effectiveness in a straightforward practice. Although I haven't come across any instances, I'm sure that a Dug would probably also have to specialize in order to be effective with a lightsaber.

I will disagree that the lightsaber is an anachronism. As compared to the end of feudal Japan, the need of samurai to carry swords was eliminated mainly due to advent of western firearms. The swordsmen may have had tremendous skill, but let's face it, stopping a tiny object moving at....lowball, 700mph is anime fiction. The lightsaber would have been out of place if the Jedi weren't able to deflect incoming blaster fire. But as shown numerous times, the lightsaber is quite versatile, beyond simply a weapon.

[Master Althalus]

Let me take a moment to state that I am are the Master Ken is a parody Channel and that his BS point are all tounge in cheek.

That's why I chose this way to start the discussion - Master Ken is a parody, but as most parodies, holds a certain grain of truth. Yes, it is exaggerated, but when it comes to SW, exaggeration gets normal, anyhow. 

You have valid points here, Nonymous - and that's the point of a discussion, isn't it?

The way I see the Forms presented in fiction - Vapaad being a prime example - they resemble the martial styles of China as presented in the 60's Wuxia movies. "My Golden Dragon style trumps your Yellow Tiger style!" The use of the Forms in KotOR clearly went in that direction and the new RPG by FFG does it too (Shii-Cho having Brawn as base Attribute, while Shien switches to Cunning, for example). "Shatterpoint" has some lengthy passages that explain why Mace's Vapaad is sooooo much better (as did the Dark Horse Clone Wars comics ...).

In the end all martial arts are BS anyway.

Ameri-Do-Te is not! 

I started this discussion because I felt that it was time to make something clear, that ALL of you have written: The 7 Forms are fictional, and can be seen in all kinds of ways - but they don't mean a thing when it comes to real-world dueling. It's something I feel is all too often not clear, especially to newbies.

But they are for better or worse, the closest thing to a lineage lightsaber people can.

Correct - and as with real world martial arts, it doesn't mean a thing when facing an opponent. It seems to be some kind of human need to have some kind of lineage, even if it's obviously made up (and that holds true for a lot of so-called 'traditional' martial arts, also).

[Master Althalus]

As compared to the end of feudal Japan, the need of samurai to carry swords was eliminated mainly due to advent of western firearms.

Nope. Samurai where obliged to carry their swords as badges of office, after the Tokugawa took over. Most Samurai where bureaucrats anyhow (like medieval knights), who had only a very basic knowledge of combat. Firearms played a major role at the battle of Sekigahara, but then saw almost no use (besides some minor uprisings) until the Meiji restoration - by which the Tanegashima matchlock was still in use. Isolation is perfect for preserving things ... 

It's interesting, however, that in the very first version of the script that later should become SW, lightsabers are not exclusively carried by Jedi - Stormtroopers carry them too. It seems that Lucas found the various Samurai movies so appealing that he modeled his Jedi more in their image and made the lightsaber their sign of rank. After all, we have to accept that what we call SW today is a genre-mashup of gigantic proportions - deliberately.

From my research, Niman is what is predominantly used by the Jedi of the Prequel era

So, basically, we could just call what we train today 'Niman' and be done with it?  Yes, I know, fictional and all - but it seems a lot of people care about this thing.