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Author Topic: So..... Why DID Vader kill the Emperor???  (Read 17849 times)
Karmack
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« on: February 16, 2018, 07:45:10 PM »

Sorry, decided to help two squabbling Sith out and start a thread for them.  ;-)

It has been suggested that Vader was not in fact acting altruistically when he killed the Emperor.  That his intentions were in fact what he had stated to Luke earlier - kill the Emperor, take his place, and rule the galaxy as father and son.

Others have contended that Vader, still conflicted at his core, acted to save his son from death and through his action redeemed himself, turning away from the Dark Side and returning to the Light Side of the force.

So, I pose the question:  Which do you think it is?  Or is there a third way?  Did Anakin Skywalker truly redeem himself, or was it just Vader grasping at a last, desperate chance to usurp Darth Sidious and perhaps exact revenge on him for lying to him about being able to keep Padame alive?

Share your thoughts...
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2018, 07:49:39 PM »

I think it is the second option. He killed Palpatine to save his son. There are no Sith Force ghosts (as stated by George), which means you would have to either be Jedi or Gray in order to become a Force ghost. Anakin turned into a Force ghost, therefor, he obviously is no longer Sith.
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2018, 08:03:58 PM »

Even though it isn't stated at all in the film (perhaps in some of the novels, idk) but I always imagined in those moments where Vader looks to the Emperor and then to his son getting deep fried like turkey that he was having one of those cliche internal flashback sequences. It's interesting that if we look at the origin story of the Vader persona that Anakin specifically joined Sidious for a very specific reason (to save Padme) and then when that all falls apart he doesn't lash out at the Emperor for lying or out of anger but falls in line as his apprentice. It speaks of a broken soul with no one left to turn to save for the old disfigured man in black robes. Flash forward to the end of ROTJ and Vader seems to realize that he isn't alone anymore, there is a "light side" of the Force coming back into his life again because of his son and it awakens all of those memories and how the Emperor ultimately wronged him.

Seems a long synopsis for me to say that I think Vader finally saw through his misdeeds and was redeemed.  Tongue

Interesting theory though, since it is the duty of a Sith apprentice to destroy the master I would say Vader fulfilled that in spades.
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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2018, 08:06:07 PM »

Even though it isn't stated at all in the film (perhaps in some of the novels, idk) but I always imagined in those moments where Vader looks to the Emperor and then to his son getting deep fried like turkey that he was having one of those cliche internal flashback sequences. It's interesting that if we look at the origin story of the Vader persona that Anakin specifically joined Sidious for a very specific reason (to save Padme) and then when that all falls apart he doesn't lash out at the Emperor for lying or out of anger but falls in line as his apprentice. It speaks of a broken soul with no one left to turn to save for the old disfigured man in black robes. Flash forward to the end of ROTJ and Vader seems to realize that he isn't alone anymore, there is a "light side" of the Force coming back into his life again because of his son and it awakens all of those memories and how the Emperor ultimately wronged him.

Seems a long synopsis for me to say that I think Vader finally saw through his misdeeds and was redeemed.  Tongue

Interesting theory though, since it is the duty of a Sith apprentice to destroy the master I would say Vader fulfilled that in spades.
I agree I think he killed him to save his son
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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2018, 08:16:47 PM »

I never knew this was in question.  The moment he grabbed the Emperor Vader died and Anakin was reborn.
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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2018, 08:17:58 PM »

So, taking just the original trilogy, he did it to save Luke.  Adding in the prequels, and then more, muddies the waters.  I think he certainly still intended to save Luke, but I think there are also feelings of revenge, Dark Side fevered ambitions of usurping his master.  As for Lucas, I think when he made teh prequels, his vision changed.  Not sure if it was the narrative going elsewhere, he had set it aside so long it was no longer the same vision, or he was just selling it all out.  I have even heard that he was less or more involved in bits, or so some would like to think.  I also think it's possible, that even with questionable motives involved, that his overall act redeemed him.  Or perhaps he even had fulfilled his purpose as the force had intended, as some would speculate.  In the end, we have to accept that there are a number of ways and places where the SW universe, cannon and Legends, has issues, and severe inconsistencies.  

Of course, Sith, riling up opponents may suggest that Vader was just trying to follow the path of the rule of two, especially in that thread. Wink
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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2018, 08:30:05 PM »

Anakin became Vader to protect his family and destroyed it in the process.  When he finds his son he becomes obsessed.  When his son rejects him because of his connection to the dark side (just like his wife did) it leaves him broken.  I've always felt like Vader in RotJ wasn't the same as in the other films.  He seems more like Palpatine's lackey.

Luke goes to Vader on Endor fully confident that he's going to save his father from being Palatine's punk.  He doesn't even believe Vader will take him to him, but it shows just how much power Palpatine has over Vader.  Luke knew all along his father still had good in him, its why he refuses to fight him and throws his weapon down later.

His son was right, he just needed a push.  The dark side didn't have the power to save his family.  Here it is, destroying what's left.  Bye bye Papa Palpatine.  Grin Grin Grin

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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2018, 09:23:02 PM »

Like DT, i did not know there was a question ...

To me, DV saved his son and went back from the dark side.
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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2018, 09:50:49 PM »

Ah, I agree with you all.  I just posted this to tweak Logos.  :-)
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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2018, 10:45:56 PM »

Yes, never a question until Illyiss and Logos came along. Roll Eyes Cheesy
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2018, 10:48:38 PM »

Pretty sure Logos is in the "Vader did it to save Luke camp"  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2018, 11:24:45 PM »

Pretty sure Logos is in the "Vader did it to save Luke camp"  Roll Eyes

He isn't the only one, but stimulating conversation is fun.  As well, this was taken from the posting game, which we both know is about fun.
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2018, 02:14:00 PM »

I am in agreement with everyone here: he did it to save Luke (and never mind that added--and hideous--NOOOO! from Vader as he tossed Pappy down the shaft; I had ALWAYS thought that  Wink).

That said, Illyiss and Sam have excellent observations that the plot (heh) of the PT serves to give legitimate motives to Vader (instead of "moustache-twirling" bad guy--cue Imperial March--well, not that we NEEDED that; in the OT, Vader was always awesome IMO) in that he's a true believer: the Jedi are evil (and like Sam stated: "save family" but gets "lost" along the way).  VERY interesting!






But, yeah, Luke, redemption, yada, yada, yada  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2018, 04:05:03 PM »

Anakin's Force ghost proves that there's no question; Darth Vader was redeemed.
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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2018, 06:48:08 PM »

I'd say so, too. Taking into account the prequels, you have to realize that there were many tragic losses in his life - first, his mother when he left her on Tatooine. Second, his mother when she was murdered by the Tusken Raiders. Third, his wife when he choked her and she died during birth. He lost everything that's important to him. Then he found out that Luke was actually his son he never knew. I think this was the point when his old conflict rose again, after being suppressed for so long. He knew that Luke was the only thing left that remembers him of his love. Seeing Luke being tortured by Palpatine remembered him of his decision to join the Emperor after Windu was killed by Force Lightning and how this affected his whole life. He simply couldn't allow Palpatine to kill his son, taking the only thing that was left from his old life and finally having total control of Vader. He had to break free, and that's why he killed Palpatine.

My point of view Tongue
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