Sorry, decided to help two squabbling Sith out and start a thread for them. ;-)
It has been suggested that Vader was not in fact acting altruistically when he killed the Emperor. That his intentions were in fact what he had stated to Luke earlier - kill the Emperor, take his place, and rule the galaxy as father and son.
Others have contended that Vader, still conflicted at his core, acted to save his son from death and through his action redeemed himself, turning away from the Dark Side and returning to the Light Side of the force.
So, I pose the question: Which do you think it is? Or is there a third way? Did Anakin Skywalker truly redeem himself, or was it just Vader grasping at a last, desperate chance to usurp Darth Sidious and perhaps exact revenge on him for lying to him about being able to keep Padame alive?
Share your thoughts...
Although I am in full support that Vader acted purely to save his son, I have never been swayed to believe that one righteous act atones for a career of evil. (And it definitely doesn't mean your force ghost gets a pass on being a wrinkly old man.)
Another instance I can cite where the apprentice took full advantage of the master being distracted: Darth Plagueis' ascension.
SPOILER ALERT: During a cave-in in a cortosis mine, Darth Plagueis killed Tenebrous while he endeavored to save their ship from being destroyed. His impulse inevitably stranded him, not per se in the mine, but on the planet. As we know, he eventually escaped, but it was at significant inconvenience.
Even though it isn't stated at all in the film (perhaps in some of the novels, idk) but I always imagined in those moments where Vader looks to the Emperor and then to his son getting deep fried like turkey that he was having one of those cliche internal flashback sequences. It's interesting that if we look at the origin story of the Vader persona that Anakin specifically joined Sidious for a very specific reason (to save Padme) and then when that all falls apart he doesn't lash out at the Emperor for lying or out of anger but falls in line as his apprentice. It speaks of a broken soul with no one left to turn to save for the old disfigured man in black robes. Flash forward to the end of ROTJ and Vader seems to realize that he isn't alone anymore, there is a "light side" of the Force coming back into his life again because of his son and it awakens all of those memories and how the Emperor ultimately wronged him.
Seems a long synopsis for me to say that I think Vader finally saw through his misdeeds and was redeemed.
Interesting theory though, since it is the duty of a Sith apprentice to destroy the master I would say Vader fulfilled that in spades.
I like your theory of regret over Padme, and the broken soul bit. However, it is also the duty of the master to fully train a worthy successor. Sidious never did. He schemed to live and rule forever. Maul, Tyranus, Vader, and any number of yet unwritten unknowns, though powerful, were never to be enough to challenge Sidious.
I never knew this was in question. The moment he grabbed the Emperor Vader died and Anakin was reborn.
Are you speaking of redemption through renunciation?
So, taking just the original trilogy, he did it to save Luke. Adding in the prequels, and then more, muddies the waters. I think he certainly still intended to save Luke, but I think there are also feelings of revenge, Dark Side fevered ambitions of usurping his master. As for Lucas, I think when he made teh prequels, his vision changed. Not sure if it was the narrative going elsewhere, he had set it aside so long it was no longer the same vision, or he was just selling it all out. I have even heard that he was less or more involved in bits, or so some would like to think. I also think it's possible, that even with questionable motives involved, that his overall act redeemed him. Or perhaps he even had fulfilled his purpose as the force had intended, as some would speculate. In the end, we have to accept that there are a number of ways and places where the SW universe, cannon and Legends, has issues, and severe inconsistencies.
Of course, Sith, riling up opponents may suggest that Vader was just trying to follow the path of the rule of two, especially in that thread.
Ugh. Lucas' vision, as of the prequels, couldn't be helped if he was wearing Farnworth's reading glasses.
Anakin became Vader to protect his family and destroyed it in the process. When he finds his son he becomes obsessed. When his son rejects him because of his connection to the dark side (just like his wife did) it leaves him broken. I've always felt like Vader in RotJ wasn't the same as in the other films. He seems more like Palpatine's lackey.
Luke goes to Vader on Endor fully confident that he's going to save his father from being Palatine's punk. He doesn't even believe Vader will take him to him, but it shows just how much power Palpatine has over Vader. Luke knew all along his father still had good in him, its why he refuses to fight him and throws his weapon down later.
His son was right, he just needed a push. The dark side didn't have the power to save his family. Here it is, destroying what's left. Bye bye Papa Palpatine.
This idea runs along the same mentality of a beaten dog. It does what it's told, and responds in kind to aggression, but changes loyalties when true compassion is shown to it.
Ah, I agree with you all. I just posted this to tweak Logos. :-)
Screw
Yes, never a question until Illyiss and Logos came along.
You
Pretty sure Logos is in the "Vader did it to save Luke camp"
Guys
I'd say so, too. Taking into account the prequels, you have to realize that there were many tragic losses in his life - first, his mother when he left her on Tatooine. Second, his mother when she was murdered by the Tusken Raiders. Third, his wife when he choked her and she died during birth. He lost everything that's important to him. Then he found out that Luke was actually his son he never knew. I think this was the point when his old conflict rose again, after being suppressed for so long. He knew that Luke was the only thing left that remembers him of his love. Seeing Luke being tortured by Palpatine remembered him of his decision to join the Emperor after Windu was killed by Force Lightning and how this affected his whole life. He simply couldn't allow Palpatine to kill his son, taking the only thing that was left from his old life and finally having total control of Vader. He had to break free, and that's why he killed Palpatine.
My point of view
You forgot that he also lost his faith. Not in the religious sense, but in that the Jedi were good, and fought to do the right thing. But that was also Sidious playing him like a cheap fiddle.