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Author Topic: So..... Why DID Vader kill the Emperor???  (Read 17855 times)
Darth Tepes
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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2018, 06:52:07 PM »

I'd say so, too. Taking into account the prequels, you have to realize that there were many tragic losses in his life - first, his mother when he left her on Tatooine. Second, his mother when she was murdered by the Tusken Raiders. Third, his wife when he choked her and she died during birth. He lost everything that's important to him. Then he found out that Luke was actually his son he never knew. I think this was the point when his old conflict rose again, after being suppressed for so long. He knew that Luke was the only thing left that remembers him of his love. Seeing Luke being tortured by Palpatine remembered him of his decision to join the Emperor after Windu was killed by Force Lightning and how this affected his whole life. He simply couldn't allow Palpatine to kill his son, taking the only thing that was left from his old life and finally having total control of Vader. He had to break free, and that's why he killed Palpatine.

My point of view Tongue

Taking to account the Clone Wars he also lost Ahsoka... really showed the Jedi Council's ineptitude.
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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2018, 09:57:17 PM »

Yeah, that too. I'm not that familiar with CW Wink
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2018, 05:55:12 PM »

Sorry, decided to help two squabbling Sith out and start a thread for them.  ;-)

It has been suggested that Vader was not in fact acting altruistically when he killed the Emperor.  That his intentions were in fact what he had stated to Luke earlier - kill the Emperor, take his place, and rule the galaxy as father and son.

Others have contended that Vader, still conflicted at his core, acted to save his son from death and through his action redeemed himself, turning away from the Dark Side and returning to the Light Side of the force.

So, I pose the question:  Which do you think it is?  Or is there a third way?  Did Anakin Skywalker truly redeem himself, or was it just Vader grasping at a last, desperate chance to usurp Darth Sidious and perhaps exact revenge on him for lying to him about being able to keep Padame alive?

Share your thoughts...

Although I am in full support that Vader acted purely to save his son, I have never been swayed to believe that one righteous act atones for a career of evil. (And it definitely doesn't mean your force ghost gets a pass on being a wrinkly old man.)

Another instance I can cite where the apprentice took full advantage of the master being distracted: Darth Plagueis' ascension. SPOILER ALERT: During a cave-in in a cortosis mine, Darth Plagueis killed Tenebrous while he endeavored to save their ship from being destroyed. His impulse inevitably stranded him, not per se in the mine, but on the planet. As we know, he eventually escaped, but it was at significant inconvenience.

Even though it isn't stated at all in the film (perhaps in some of the novels, idk) but I always imagined in those moments where Vader looks to the Emperor and then to his son getting deep fried like turkey that he was having one of those cliche internal flashback sequences. It's interesting that if we look at the origin story of the Vader persona that Anakin specifically joined Sidious for a very specific reason (to save Padme) and then when that all falls apart he doesn't lash out at the Emperor for lying or out of anger but falls in line as his apprentice. It speaks of a broken soul with no one left to turn to save for the old disfigured man in black robes. Flash forward to the end of ROTJ and Vader seems to realize that he isn't alone anymore, there is a "light side" of the Force coming back into his life again because of his son and it awakens all of those memories and how the Emperor ultimately wronged him.

Seems a long synopsis for me to say that I think Vader finally saw through his misdeeds and was redeemed.  Tongue

Interesting theory though, since it is the duty of a Sith apprentice to destroy the master I would say Vader fulfilled that in spades.

I like your theory of regret over Padme, and the broken soul bit. However, it is also the duty of the master to fully train a worthy successor. Sidious never did. He schemed to live and rule forever. Maul, Tyranus, Vader, and any number of yet unwritten unknowns, though powerful, were never to be enough to challenge Sidious.

I never knew this was in question.  The moment he grabbed the Emperor Vader died and Anakin was reborn.

Are you speaking of redemption through renunciation?

So, taking just the original trilogy, he did it to save Luke.  Adding in the prequels, and then more, muddies the waters.  I think he certainly still intended to save Luke, but I think there are also feelings of revenge, Dark Side fevered ambitions of usurping his master.  As for Lucas, I think when he made teh prequels, his vision changed.  Not sure if it was the narrative going elsewhere, he had set it aside so long it was no longer the same vision, or he was just selling it all out.  I have even heard that he was less or more involved in bits, or so some would like to think.  I also think it's possible, that even with questionable motives involved, that his overall act redeemed him.  Or perhaps he even had fulfilled his purpose as the force had intended, as some would speculate.  In the end, we have to accept that there are a number of ways and places where the SW universe, cannon and Legends, has issues, and severe inconsistencies. 

Of course, Sith, riling up opponents may suggest that Vader was just trying to follow the path of the rule of two, especially in that thread. Wink

Ugh. Lucas' vision, as of the prequels, couldn't be helped if he was wearing Farnworth's reading glasses.


Anakin became Vader to protect his family and destroyed it in the process.  When he finds his son he becomes obsessed.  When his son rejects him because of his connection to the dark side (just like his wife did) it leaves him broken.  I've always felt like Vader in RotJ wasn't the same as in the other films.  He seems more like Palpatine's lackey.

Luke goes to Vader on Endor fully confident that he's going to save his father from being Palatine's punk.  He doesn't even believe Vader will take him to him, but it shows just how much power Palpatine has over Vader.  Luke knew all along his father still had good in him, its why he refuses to fight him and throws his weapon down later.

His son was right, he just needed a push.  The dark side didn't have the power to save his family.  Here it is, destroying what's left.  Bye bye Papa Palpatine.  Grin Grin Grin

This idea runs along the same mentality of a beaten dog. It does what it's told, and responds in kind to aggression, but changes loyalties when true compassion is shown to it.

Ah, I agree with you all.  I just posted this to tweak Logos.  :-)

Screw

Yes, never a question until Illyiss and Logos came along. Roll Eyes Cheesy

You

Pretty sure Logos is in the "Vader did it to save Luke camp"  Roll Eyes

Guys

I'd say so, too. Taking into account the prequels, you have to realize that there were many tragic losses in his life - first, his mother when he left her on Tatooine. Second, his mother when she was murdered by the Tusken Raiders. Third, his wife when he choked her and she died during birth. He lost everything that's important to him. Then he found out that Luke was actually his son he never knew. I think this was the point when his old conflict rose again, after being suppressed for so long. He knew that Luke was the only thing left that remembers him of his love. Seeing Luke being tortured by Palpatine remembered him of his decision to join the Emperor after Windu was killed by Force Lightning and how this affected his whole life. He simply couldn't allow Palpatine to kill his son, taking the only thing that was left from his old life and finally having total control of Vader. He had to break free, and that's why he killed Palpatine.

My point of view Tongue

You forgot that he also lost his faith. Not in the religious sense, but in that the Jedi were good, and fought to do the right thing. But that was also Sidious playing him like a cheap fiddle.
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Racona Nova
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2018, 07:03:04 PM »

You forgot that he also lost his faith. Not in the religious sense, but in that the Jedi were good, and fought to do the right thing. But that was also Sidious playing him like a cheap fiddle.

You're right, I forgot that, too.
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Illyiss
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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2018, 08:36:19 PM »


Ugh. Lucas' vision, as of the prequels, couldn't be helped if he was wearing Farnworth's reading glasses.




This entire thread is worthwhile if for just this comment/meme!
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Darth Pandæmis

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Saso Is-kor
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2018, 08:47:25 PM »

I like your theory of regret over Padme, and the broken soul bit. However, it is also the duty of the master to fully train a worthy successor. Sidious never did. He schemed to live and rule forever. Maul, Tyranus, Vader, and any number of yet unwritten unknowns, though powerful, were never to be enough to challenge Sidious.

Ah, but he did challenge Sidious, at least in the end, for a different reason though... meh. You bring up another interesting point that Vader was not powerful enough to challenge Sidious outright. Vader tries to enlist Luke to help him out in ESB and (non-canon) tries to use Starkiller in the same way. Come to think of it, Tyranus did try the exact same thing during the Clone Wars. Sidious is just too bad to be messed with (unless of course he's distracted while frying someone, then he's an easy kill  Grin)
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2018, 09:01:30 PM »

Ah, but he did challenge Sidious, at least in the end, for a different reason though... meh. You bring up another interesting point that Vader was not powerful enough to challenge Sidious outright. Vader tries to enlist Luke to help him out in ESB and (non-canon) tries to use Starkiller in the same way. Come to think of it, Tyranus did try the exact same thing during the Clone Wars. Sidious is just too bad to be messed with (unless of course he's distracted while frying someone, then he's an easy kill  Grin)

Oh it's not that Palpy wasn't challenged by his underlings, it's that he never equipped them to be a true threat to him.  The Rule of Two provides that each Sith master should train a competent apprentice, who will eventually supplant them, and become stronger, thus ever increasing the power of the Sith.  Palpy intended to be the last, and reign forever, immortal.  His hubris had bigger balls than Jupiter.  So, he always intended his toys to be disposable, and only called them apprentice to keep them hungry.  His downfall wasn't that Vader was able to take him, it's that he miscalculated in Luke, and failed to foresee, as a result, that Vader would turn on him in defense of Luke.
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Darth Pandæmis

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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2018, 09:44:14 PM »

This entire thread is worthwhile if for just this comment/meme!
I aim to please.

Ah, but he did challenge Sidious, at least in the end, for a different reason though... meh. You bring up another interesting point that Vader was not powerful enough to challenge Sidious outright. Vader tries to enlist Luke to help him out in ESB and (non-canon) tries to use Starkiller in the same way. Come to think of it, Tyranus did try the exact same thing during the Clone Wars. Sidious is just too bad to be messed with (unless of course he's distracted while frying someone, then he's an easy kill  Grin)
YOU TAKE THAT BACK. T.F.U. IS CANON. Angry (Tongue) And why do you think that no one was ever powerful enough to challenge Sidious? (Even though Galen Marek did make an impressive go of it.)

The reason Vader was able to successfully attack was the same reason I listed earlier, and to which Luke even pointed out: "You're overconfidence is your weakness." The Emperor relied too heavily on Vader being a whipped dog that he didn't foresee him biting back. I also wouldn't have called that a "challenge". One's opponent usually knows you're coming when you challenge them.

Oh it's not that Palpy wasn't challenged by his underlings, it's that he never equipped them to be a true threat to him.  The Rule of Two provides that each Sith master should train a competent apprentice, who will eventually supplant them, and become stronger, thus ever increasing the power of the Sith.  Palpy intended to be the last, and reign forever, immortal.  His hubris had bigger balls than Jupiter.  So, he always intended his toys to be disposable, and only called them apprentice to keep them hungry.  His downfall wasn't that Vader was able to take him, it's that he miscalculated in Luke, and failed to foresee, as a result, that Vader would turn on him in defense of Luke.
Well said.
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Illyiss
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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2018, 11:35:28 PM »

Well said.

*Bows*  Thank you. 
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Darth Pandæmis

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Darth Tepes
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« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2018, 02:04:39 AM »

One thing the new comics have shown, is Vader building a bit of a network outside of Papa Palpatines sight. 
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Illyiss
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« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2018, 02:11:42 AM »

One thing the new comics have shown, is Vader building a bit of a network outside of Papa Palpatines sight. 

Are you so certain it was ACTUALLY out of Palpy's sight?  Creating networks to be more effective of a tool, to let Vader think, as well, that he is getting somewhere in his plotting, sounds just like a Palpy method...
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Darth Pandæmis

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« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2018, 02:21:45 AM »

Yeah, in comics, books, and cartoons there were many times when Maul thought his actions were not known to Sidious when in fact they were guided and enacted exactly like Sidious wanted with him swiftly swooping in and bringing the lightning any time it was otherwise.
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Darth Tepes
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« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2018, 02:41:06 AM »

Are you so certain it was ACTUALLY out of Palpy's sight?  Creating networks to be more effective of a tool, to let Vader think, as well, that he is getting somewhere in his plotting, sounds just like a Palpy method...

I state whats written down as of now, I have my own conjectures but I stuck to the facts ;P   But Vader did find out about Luke outside of Palpy's sight.
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Illyiss
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« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2018, 02:45:17 AM »

I state whats written down as of now, I have my own conjectures but I stuck to the facts ;P   But Vader did find out about Luke outside of Palpy's sight.

True, though hiring bounty hunters was probably so routine, Palpy wouldn't have batted an eye.
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Darth Pandæmis

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Saso Is-kor
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« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2018, 03:55:05 AM »

YOU TAKE THAT BACK. T.F.U. IS CANON. Angry (Tongue) And why do you think that no one was ever powerful enough to challenge Sidious? (Even though Galen Marek did make an impressive go of it.)

The reason Vader was able to successfully attack was the same reason I listed earlier, and to which Luke even pointed out: "You're overconfidence is your weakness." The Emperor relied too heavily on Vader being a whipped dog that he didn't foresee him biting back. I also wouldn't have called that a "challenge". One's opponent usually knows you're coming when you challenge them.

I was going off the idea you gave me, that off the top of my head I don't recall any Sith ever going "I've got a bright idea, I'll usurp Sidious by myself." They always sought help with taking him down, Tyranus did, Maul did, Vader did, I'm not too familiar with TFU but good on Starkiller if he tried. It's just a testament to the high opinion that the Sith have for Sidious if they knew better than to take him on solo. Doubly so in that pride is a dark side trait and all of his apprentices laid that aside because they probably thought they'd end up fried, lol it rhymes.  Roll Eyes

Eh, I think the whole "foresight" thing is kind of a weak plot tool in Star Wars. It's too easy to say "-insert character- can tell future events except when the plot warrants it, then they don't see it coming." just my two pennies. 

I like this thread, lots of good discussion here.
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“You think you know the depths of corruption that plague the Jedi?” Saso hissed. “I’ve seen it, I’ve experienced it, I even embody it. Every breath I take is an affront to their lofty ideals and idle Force worship… and so they seek to exterminate me.” He looked deep into Barriss Offee’s eyes, “they were not successful in purging me from the galaxy, and neither will you be.”

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