Kendo

[Darth Silenoz]

 I've done quite a bit of dueling over the years but never with protective gear or real "rules" other than no intentional groin or face shots.
Would Kendo be applicable to lightsaber combat? It seems like regarding the front and back of the shinai would only apply so much to a lightsaber since every side would cut. It still seems like it would be a good starting point and foundation for getting more serious about sword combat in general. Any thoughts?

[Musashi Padawan]

I've done quite a bit of dueling over the years but never with protective gear or real "rules" other than no intentional groin or face shots.
Would Kendo be applicable to lightsaber combat? It seems like regarding the front and back of the shinai would only apply so much to a lightsaber since every side would cut. It still seems like it would be a good starting point and foundation for getting more serious about sword combat in general. Any thoughts?

I may be biased from studying Kendo, but I believe it to an excellent introduction to the basics of swordsmanship and VERY applicable to light saber combat.  The shinai is remarkable similar in length, weight and feel to many ultra sabers. The basic stances, guards, footwork, strikes and parries are similar to what many consider the basics of form one/Shii-cho. Kendo waza and oji-waza (attacks/counter-attacks) are highly effective when applied to light saber combat (you can ask my opponents/students).  Unlike many other martial arts which focus on defense or an almost passive mindset, Kendo stresses the "cultivation of a vigorous spirit".  "Spirit" can be translated to a mindset of always controlling an engagement- not waiting for/reacting to one's opponent, again a great philosophy for sword fighting in general. 
Some of the criticisms you may hear re: Kendo is that it is too ritualistic or "sportified". But I thinks this view stems from critics only watching youtube highlights of high level competitions.  At a quality dojo, the Gokaku-geiko (sparring against equals) is excellent and nothing like the "point" obsessed tournaments.
Of course, I could go on and on about Kendo.  But to answer your initial question- YES!     

[Darth Silenoz]

I may be biased from studying Kendo, but I believe it to an excellent introduction to the basics of swordsmanship and VERY applicable to light saber combat.  The shinai is remarkable similar in length, weight and feel to many ultra sabers. The basic stances, guards, footwork, strikes and parries are similar to what many consider the basics of form one/Shii-cho. Kendo waza and oji-waza (attacks/counter-attacks) are highly effective when applied to light saber combat (you can ask my opponents/students).  Unlike many other martial arts which focus on defense or an almost passive mindset, Kendo stresses the "cultivation of a vigorous spirit".  "Spirit" can be translated to a mindset of always controlling an engagement- not waiting for/reacting to one's opponent, again a great philosophy for sword fighting in general. 
Some of the criticisms you may hear re: Kendo is that it is too ritualistic or "sportified". But I thinks this view stems from critics only watching youtube highlights of high level competitions.  At a quality dojo, the Gokaku-geiko (sparring against equals) is excellent and nothing like the "point" obsessed tournaments.
Of course, I could go on and on about Kendo.  But to answer your initial question- YES!     

That is exactly what I thought. I used to own several Shinai and practice very informally with a friend. I actually looked up what length shinai I should have for my size and made my first saber the exact same length hilt by adding the perfect pommel and blade length because it made so much sense to me. I wish I could study with you. Perhaps one day.

[Master Resolute]

I've never seen a system of combat I haven't liked. Words my Sigung tells us all the time and I completely agree.  It all has a place and time. Martial Arts is nothing more than a journey. It isn't the finish line that is important. We must always continue to grow and adapt. My Sigung ( and My Sifu ) remind us all the time that is is the individual, not the art. That being said, some are more appropriate than others in a given situation. ( notice I didn't use the word, better. That is an opinion and very subjective. )

To give some examples.
You wouldn't use BJJ in 4 feet of water.
You can't use Footwork if your in a car and fighting. ( A story told by Sigung/Guro Inosanto when Bruce Lee invited him into his VW Bug he had at the time. )

I only bring this up because, IMO, you should try to experience as much as this world has to offer. Always grow. Always be a student. Learn to teach and teach to learn.

On a side note, Kendo is definitely a precursor skill for Form I in most Saber circles. Keep on training. And be water my friend!

[Master Nero Attoru]

In my experience, having worked with martial artists from a WIDE variety of arts, any sword art taught by a good instructor has huge value to lightsaber combat.  Each is a result of a particular set of circumstances, so they'll all have pros and cons, but the core of all legitimate sword methods is the same.  If you have the opportunity to train in kendo, go for it!

And please, utilize safety gear when sparring in the future.  If you need help finding a source for some, feel free to reach out to me and I'll point you in the right direction.

[Darth Silenoz]

Thank you guys. This thread is now soaked in wisdom. It's great that the Resident Masters are actually here to help and not just look down at people. I've had some terrible teachers, and some amazing ones too. My first experience with formal martial arts was Kenpo. I swear the teacher saw Karate Kid and thought "Cobra Kai!" He literally wore a sleeveless black Gi and had a picture of him holding a machine gun in Nam on the wall.
I was the youngest in the adult class so I was about 13 and every one else was late twenty's early thirties, yet he would drunkenly display every strike and block on me without letting me know what was about to happen or allowing me to improvise to counter or escape. He must have hyper extended my shoulder and elbow a few hundred times. But for contrast when I was about 23 I had Aikido Sensei Yoshi Shibata. I'm 5'11'' and he almost came up to my shoulder, kindest calmest most dangerous man I've ever met. He could throw me at least 15-20 feet with no physical effort and I weigh a good 225. I had just bought a Paul Chen practical plus Katana the day before I went to eat at the sushi restaurant he worked at and I happened to ask about the sharpening processes for there knives. He noticed my interest and I mentioned the sword I had just bought (and had always wanted) he told me he was an Aikido teacher at the local university and that he would put me on a list so I didn't have to be a student or pay to take his classes! Then he tells me he used to teach iaido and that he would teach me in private at his home. I used to get to class every day 5 days a week 3 hours early so he could teach me iado before classes started. Sorry I'm just kinda rambling at this point about my experience with martial arts because you guys words are so inspiring right now. I have nothing near me at the moment, I'm broke beyond belief and it's been years since I've been in a dojo, but I feel like a dojo has been in me since I was a kid. My journey with martial arts is not finished and never will be. I'm just in limbo right now. So thank you guys again for giving me inspiration and people to look up to.         

[DarthProdigal]

I've done quite a bit of dueling over the years but never with protective gear or real "rules" other than no intentional groin or face shots.
Would Kendo be applicable to lightsaber combat? It seems like regarding the front and back of the shinai would only apply so much to a lightsaber since every side would cut. It still seems like it would be a good starting point and foundation for getting more serious about sword combat in general. Any thoughts?

  Having read everything, the previous posts are accurate. Kendo does closely embody Form I & II in many respects. The Samurai moving through battle disarming opponents (or dismembering) like Form I. And the sword VS sword focus of Form II while efficiently slipping past defenses while mindful of or negating opponent's weapon simultaneously or moments in advance. I share an obvious reverence for Kendo but it fundamentally ingrains many key fundamentals of effective swordplay. Though I don't want to understate the value of other MA weapons training, kendo is meant for show and contact sparring so it can appear an ideal mix toward developing some serious lightsaber skills.

  Also I'm glad to hear you experienced your ideal and a less than ideal experience training under separate masters. It is said a man cannot serve 2 masters... but to take lessons from several (with proper understanding and context) can teach much. I took a similar journey to yours, studied from one I could readily understand and follow who "spoke my language" and another who was rigid and simply set lessons before you. Pass or Fail, learn or remain confused, executing technique properly or finding your own flaws... I liked the latter approach much less than the targeted approach, but each experience simply taught me different lessons. Ideally an encouraging and tailored approach encourages more exuberant participation IMO but to each their own. I'm in complete agreement upon arrival that the guidance rendered here is indeed quality. Here's to potential growth, may it no longer elude capture.

[JoleeBindo]

I apologize for bringing back an older post.


This thread touches on a subject very dear to my heart, the way of the Japanese sword.  I can see where Kendo would be a wonderful way of studying the sword, and that it would show many truly great strategies and techniques employable in saber combat.

I personally found my home in Kenjutsu, specifically Shinkendo, and Nakamura-ryu.  The solid, rooted stances are deceptive in these styles.  As is the simple, nearly static (appearing) guards.  Despite the focus of these two styles being very offensive, there is a dynamic defense that is VERY present.  It's hard to type well, but by focusing on the attack, and putting yourself into your blade (I know, I know, it sounds like mystic mumbo jumbo and I hate that) you can more easily turn aside an opponents attack.  It's a very dynamic parry, but requires little movement on your part.  

Furthermore there is a concept called the Bunkai, or eight directions of cut.  A very amazing way of indexing this concept is in Nakamura Sensei's Spirit of The Sword book.  I always envisioned it as a + sign and an x sign overlaid each other.  For me it was an excellent way of understanding not only how to cut, but also how to defend against cuts made along each of the 8 lines of cut.  

The guards present in these styles also translate very well to fighting with rattan sticks (sca combat) so I feel that they will also easily translate to saber combat.

Again, I apologize for posting in this old thread, but I felt at home amongst other Kengo.  I hope that my humble experiences or suggestions may help someone, and I am more than happy to share my interpretations of these styles, learn other styles, or just plain talk shop.  Thank you for this opportunity, fellow force users.

[DarthProdigal]

I'd see no need to apologize, since it was a well articulated addition and relevant to the central topic. If you should be considered "at fault" for replying to a months old post, then consider me the Grand Heretic of the Ancient Threads because I have Bane levels of research madness in that regard. I mean it's the internet, so "it's forever" as long as the server(s) exists the forum exists and by extension each topic. The two ideologies may seemingly be at odds then, limiting clutter by not creating excessive new posts of the same preexisting category VS commenting on something "old" but relevant... I'll end that thought with what a teacher told me about literature (that stuck) "Stories are told and referenced in the present tense. This is because a story is perpetually being told, I may have picked it up as a child and read it, but you read it today, and I may choose to reread it tomorrow. For the characters the story is eternal, and always in motion. Each part 'happening' as it is read." So that's how I view the topics, if someone created a discussion topic of Episode 3 when it came out, but people have not seen Ep 3 till recently then those new viewers should be able to within reason hold their discussions therein and read what was once written... Though that's just my view on the matter.

To return to the topic at hand, again well said. I always found Kendo in many respects very "true" to the swordsmanship that spawned it. Kenjutsu even more so, but like many things in those arts Kendo is a great stepping stone toward Kenjutsu. The latter being those advanced steps toward the pursuit of proper cutting techniques and related movements as you highlighted. I always loved it, and wished I could have spent my whole life in such a pursuit purely... It is a great experience to say the least and IMO gives the practitioner a view into their own being/fiber/character as it does to those who engage with them. You may have said it at times does sound like "mystic mumbo jumbo" but in reality the artform is rooted in the ideologies of it being rather "spiritual". I won't attempt to delve into that too deeply here as to avoid treading upon the Rules, but "putting yourself" into the blade can be interpreted several ways through various actions. I agree, (which is why I tended toward Djem So mostly at first) the level of commitment of the whole body to an action while trying in each instance to not "over commit" can be fundamental to intense parries, strikes, and guard positions (or at least that was my interpretation/take away from your words). From my standpoint I would encourage Kendo to those new to lightsaber combat since it's strikes and guard positions are relevant in many ways or easily adapted to mirror lightsaber Forms of combat. Plus it's just great fun. Not to mention Kendo Armor is somewhere between light-mid grade armor rakings as far as lightsaber sparring goes, or at least that's to the best of my memory. Not to mention our US are supposed to (in theory) be able to clash with bokuto/bokken although I've yet to test the theory with my own blades as I was unsure what the result may look like on a clear blade after intense exchanges.

[Hulk10]

As I recall kendo is one of the last remaining representations of the culture of the Samurai of Japan. It preserves their skill at swordplay. And thus is a good sport for those that long to learn the art of the sword. It was developed from kenjustu, the Japanese art of swordplay. Swordsmen established the schools of kenjustu and developed things called katas as a way of honing their skills with the sword. Or so I've read. I believe that kata is simply a form, like the various lightsaber forms. So there were different katas to master.

[DarthProdigal]

...It was developed from kenjustu, the Japanese art of swordplay. Swordsmen established the schools of kenjustu and developed things called katas as a way of honing their skills with the sword. Or so I've read. I believe that kata is simply a form, like the various lightsaber forms. So there were different katas to master.

In my experience anyway it would be viewed slightly differently but that's in the ballpark. The way I was taught I interpret it more so as kata being like sequences in EU legends I read. A repetition of movements in series playing out several actions. A series of attacks, blocks & attacks, parries, footwork... it's a learned and specific repetition of sorts. And very exact/precise, that one even at times performed with a partner.

The lightsaber forms as I understand them, would be more closely akin to schools of swordsmanship or different styles. Where as one may center around speed, where another is all about drawing from a sheath, and yet another has more arcing cuts for different reasons. Various masters honed their skills and passed these ideologies to their students to preserve them. Who in turn some times built on the concepts over time spawning new schools and techniques... this is more true in my mind to the nature of lightsaber forms, as they evolved over time out of necessity for different times and types of combat in SW.

That's solely my take on it from what I learned from my sensei and my understanding of SW lore. Though the lightsaber forms will always be open to interpretation.

[JoleeBindo]

I'd see no need to apologize, since it was a well articulated addition and relevant to the central topic. If you should be considered "at fault" for replying to a months old post, then consider me the Grand Heretic of the Ancient Threads because I have Bane levels of research madness in that regard. I mean it's the internet, so "it's forever" as long as the server(s) exists the forum exists and by extension each topic. The two ideologies may seemingly be at odds then, limiting clutter by not creating excessive new posts of the same preexisting category VS commenting on something "old" but relevant... I'll end that thought with what a teacher told me about literature (that stuck) "Stories are told and referenced in the present tense. This is because a story is perpetually being told, I may have picked it up as a child and read it, but you read it today, and I may choose to reread it tomorrow. For the characters the story is eternal, and always in motion. Each part 'happening' as it is read." So that's how I view the topics, if someone created a discussion topic of Episode 3 when it came out, but people have not seen Ep 3 till recently then those new viewers should be able to within reason hold their discussions therein and read what was once written... Though that's just my view on the matter.

To return to the topic at hand, again well said. I always found Kendo in many respects very "true" to the swordsmanship that spawned it. Kenjutsu even more so, but like many things in those arts Kendo is a great stepping stone toward Kenjutsu. The latter being those advanced steps toward the pursuit of proper cutting techniques and related movements as you highlighted. I always loved it, and wished I could have spent my whole life in such a pursuit purely... It is a great experience to say the least and IMO gives the practitioner a view into their own being/fiber/character as it does to those who engage with them. You may have said it at times does sound like "mystic mumbo jumbo" but in reality the artform is rooted in the ideologies of it being rather "spiritual". I won't attempt to delve into that too deeply here as to avoid treading upon the Rules, but "putting yourself" into the blade can be interpreted several ways through various actions. I agree, (which is why I tended toward Djem So mostly at first) the level of commitment of the whole body to an action while trying in each instance to not "over commit" can be fundamental to intense parries, strikes, and guard positions (or at least that was my interpretation/take away from your words). From my standpoint I would encourage Kendo to those new to lightsaber combat since it's strikes and guard positions are relevant in many ways or easily adapted to mirror lightsaber Forms of combat. Plus it's just great fun. Not to mention Kendo Armor is somewhere between light-mid grade armor rakings as far as lightsaber sparring goes, or at least that's to the best of my memory. Not to mention our US are supposed to (in theory) be able to clash with bokuto/bokken although I've yet to test the theory with my own blades as I was unsure what the result may look like on a clear blade after intense exchanges.

Sith, you betray yourself by showing your deep understanding of the arts!  

In all seriousness, it is good to talk shop with another person who understands that the arts go beyond the biomechanics and physics.  Yes, we need good skeletal alignment and muscle and mind memory to quickly index, block, parry, or capitalize on a split second opening in an opponent's defenses.  However, the concept of mind/body unification is harder to explain. All of the masters who's works that I've read (Musashi, Munenori, Takuan, Ittosai, etc) talk about intensely serious practice being necessary before one even begins to see this change in oneself. I know that it took a solid three years before I was comfortable with a shinken in Iaijutsu, and five years before a bokken felt like a natural extension of my body. I attribute this to making certain that I trained both arms equally, and trained as often as was feasible.  

Our skills are perishable though.  I went on to train in western swordsmanship, not from a particular manual, but from older, more experienced teachers in the SCA.  My skills with the Japanese sword declined during this period, but I did gain a small measure of familiarity with a shield and a rattan sword.  My home is without a shield, though, and with the option to put both hands on the hilt, so back to the Japanese sword I went, when was unable to fight SCA Heavy Armor, any longer.  Saber, for me, is far closer to Kenjutsu than western swordsmanship. That's just how my brain interprets it, and I am not decrying western martial arts, at all.

There is an old saying "Manners make a man." This is a concept that you embody.  I am an equalist and do not mean this comment in a sexist manner, to clarify.

Hulk, the word Kata means dance in Japanese, or is at least close enough in interpretation that it's safe to use it.  The kata in Japanese martial arts are sequences (good usage of that word, DarthProdigal) that are meant to teach not only necessary movements to counter certain things, but also body positioning and skeletal alignment. Footwork is a huge part of these, as well.  There are Kata that it's said take a lifetime to master.  The famous one from Goju-ryu karate comes to mind.  Kata is a great development tool, but sparring is necessary to make these skills practical.  At least in my humbe opinion.

[DarthProdigal]

Much appreciated JoleeBindo, you honor me with your words. Kendo was always something I felt more at home as a practitioner of than almost anything else. I was exceptionally thankful for having what felt like the perfectly suited sensei for my mentality and needs right off the bat. I was an impetuous and roguish youth and his teachings gave me much I needed at the time, although of course he was humble in simply stating he was imparting upon us the lessons of his master and layering it as needed to give us a proper foundation along the way. His teaching truly helped center me through difficulties, the aggressive sparring provided healthy outlets for rage, frustration, and testosterone prevalent throughout such an age, and being free in fully armored combat showed the full potential of harnessing emotion in a focused way. After much training it was interesting how adaptive one can be in implementing such lessons under duress, when fighting a losing battle, or in situations that are increasingly hopeless/disadvantageous. It taught me levels of courage needed in combat for sure. The whole "way of the samurai" aspect is truly multifaceted, and while I very well may be the black sheep of his disciples it doesn't mean his lessons were wasted. In truth the pursuits of kendo and kenjutsu, the mindset they embody and promote, it's all meant to allow the individual to improve in all ways. As you said, it encourages a synthesis and synergy. The practitioner continually strives (in theory if not in practice) to improve body, mind, and spirit (when I say spirit I do not necessarily mean some existential religious ideology, more so as it was taught to me; the fundamental character of an individual, their resolve, dedication, mental fierceness, presence, much more than I could even begin to adequately describe rolled together... the quintessential human spirit rather than ideas of "the soul" or something supernatural). So as I was saying, through dedicating yourself to training and learning Kendo at it's core it's much more than swinging wooden sticks. It's the pursuit of mastery of an ideology, the concepts, yourself, and properly wielding a blade with purpose as a result.

While I may have inevitably been unworthy of being a proper pupil, I was dedicated to the lessons and grasping the meanings behind them as best I could. So even if I am no worthy successor, I will always carry that wisdom. This is what I'd always found so central to and compelling about kendo in philosophy and action. It did more likely than not make me a much improved individual than I would have become otherwise. And the deep levels of meaning engrained in it make it very akin to Jedi practice of learning to wield a lightsaber. The meditation aspects, sequences trained as kata, spending years of improvement before using a "live blade", ritualized combat with purpose. Schools of Kendo and Kenjutsu are a fantastic choice in my experience to prepare for or supplement lightsaber use. Because it is fundamentally close to single lightsaber combat in dynamic, and terribly similar to uses of Form I, II, and III in various applications (at least in my understanding/experience). So I could extol the virtues of it for hours on end if I'd choose to, but I would rather encourage people to find out for themselves by participating if they ever get a chance. If you're lucky you can even find a sensei who would allow you to use your lightsaber when not using shinai... Meaning in lieu of a hard wooden sword when allowable, but some things are fundamentally better learned or practiced with bamboo first.

[JoleeBindo]

You do an excellent job of understanding and extolling the Ethos of a thing. In this case, The Way of The Japanese Sword. 

If you "failed to be an ideal pupil", then you have most certainly redeemed yourself by the heavy introspection that you have brought to your own character, and to your own art.  I have both failed to be an ideal pupil, and as a teacher, so know this situation from both sides.  Do we not learn far more from our failures, Sith?

I heartily agree with you that anyone interested in learning a different or more structured form of combat applicable to saber, should study Kendo (if only informally). Pick up a book dangit!  Read it!  Look at the pictures at the very least!  (Practicing my crotchety old man act, he he he.)

The more I learn about the lightsaber forms (I'm not very knowledgeable about them yet), the more I see that I am a Soresu practicioner.  I have been accused of being a "slow old turtle, dang your hard shell!".  My last teacher tried getting me to embody a more aggressive approach, but I would rather wait an opponent out, and find a peaceful resolution, if possible.  If not, I've got a couple of nasty shots (what we called strikes) up my sleeves.  Sun Tzu said "The general who is skilled in defense, hides in the most secret recesses of the earth."  I embraced this early and learned that by "turtling up" behind by defenses, I can aggravate most opponent's into making a mistake and a single simple strike normally finishes the encounter.  Lol, I've had bouts where the audience was more aggravated than my opponent and we both happily waited until one of us broke first, and did something stupid.

[Hulk10]

In my experience anyway it would be viewed slightly differently but that's in the ballpark. The way I was taught I interpret it more so as kata being like sequences in EU legends I read. A repetition of movements in series playing out several actions. A series of attacks, blocks & attacks, parries, footwork... it's a learned and specific repetition of sorts. And very exact/precise, that one even at times performed with a partner.

The lightsaber forms as I understand them, would be more closely akin to schools of swordsmanship or different styles. Where as one may center around speed, where another is all about drawing from a sheath, and yet another has more arcing cuts for different reasons. Various masters honed their skills and passed these ideologies to their students to preserve them. Who in turn some times built on the concepts over time spawning new schools and techniques... this is more true in my mind to the nature of lightsaber forms, as they evolved over time out of necessity for different times and types of combat in SW.

That's solely my take on it from what I learned from my sensei and my understanding of SW lore. Though the lightsaber forms will always be open to interpretation.

Sadly I only took afterschool tai kwon do and so my knowledge of this is limited. But I do have an appreciation for different styles. Yeah I agree the thing I noticed is that with lightsaber dueling, they don't seem to care much if you experiment with your lightsaber skills. Once you learn the Forms you are free to experiment and invent. I rather like that. And we see that in Darth Vader, he modified his fighting style to match being heavier and less agile due to his suit. And he became an absolutely lethal fighter. Bariss Offee pointed out to Ahsoka that she favored a form of Djem So, but suggested  Form VI as being more effective in combat against her.