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Author Topic: How to combat a whip?  (Read 56373 times)
Big Boss
Mandalore
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Force Alignment: -323
Posts: 1790


Galactic basic you nerfherder! Do you speak it!?


« Reply #150 on: December 13, 2011, 06:59:14 PM »

All right, you got me. I want to make a lightwhip. I'll need to get my first saber before I try anything crazy, just to see how it's set up, but I'm very curious now as to how my knowledge of traditional whips will work with the lightsaber technology.

I'm thinking to set up a multiple-layer cascading tube out of some kind of transparent material, but I'm not sure what kind would carry the light well enough. Airline tubing is limited in the number of sizes available and I'm not sure it would carry light so much as simply let it pass through. Perhaps I could use some of that semi-transparent film Ultra has. The other option I see is to braid it in the traditional style, applying semi-transparent film to the underside of each lace, and making the laces out of a transparent PVC-type material.

The problem that the Star Wars community faces is the same problem any Cosplay or costume enthusiast faces: Without enough research (i.e. becoming a whipmaker outright), you end up with a product that only looks like it's supposed to, with none of the functionality. When I saw those lightwhips springing back on their user, I cringed. A whip is supposed to track your movements all the way through the thong; you move the handle, the whip goes with it. With just a filament on the end of a lightsaber hilt, you're basically doomed to a towel-snapping technique, which we can see does not mimic the flow of a "real" whip at all.

The way I see it, once I complete a basic understanding of how the lightsaber replica technology functions, and can reliably build or customize my own, I can bring my understanding of the physics of traditional whipcracking to the table. We could see a huge leap in the advancement of lightwhip technology and use. Of course, for safety's sake, I'd have to modify the design parameters to take away some of the force of the tapered thong.

If anyone else tries a traditional style on a lightwhip, please heed these warnings. Whips can be deadly if misused. Anthony DeLongis isn't just tooting his own horn when he says it's like a flexible blade. Adam Winrich can cleave a soda can in half with a bullwhip, and do so cleanly enough that he can drink the soda from the bottom half of the can. Any lightwhip made to resemble a real whip should have no fall (the strip of material tied on to the point of the whip, the part you use to strike with), no cracker (the part that makes sound), and should be tapered as little as possible to minimize impact force. I see it as possible that a taper of three-quarters or one-half original thong thickness could retain enough of the whip's effect to be realistic without causing undue physical injury.

So, with that said, does anyone have any ideas on where I can get a flexible, super-strong, transparent film (5-10mm thick should do), and Ultra's semi-transparent film (or similar material)? I'm anxious to try my hand and see where the results lead.
you got me really excited. Do you sell whips as business or do you make them just for yourself? As for how you will build the lightwhip it is going to be a great challenge, finding the right materials is going to be hard. lightsaber blade film is pretty flimsy and crinkles really bad and also making the whip's thong stay evenly lit throughout will be just as hard as making the whip.
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One must die and one must live. No victory, no defeat. The survivor will carry on the fight. It is our destiny... The one who survives will inherit the title of Boss.-BIG BASS

Mitth_Fisto
Knight Officer
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Force Alignment: -7
Posts: 118


I'm Shade, and I'm not here to rescue you.


« Reply #151 on: December 13, 2011, 07:12:28 PM »

I gotta ask, did anyone here watch the recent Star Wars the Clone Wars the other week? It showed regular individuals using something akin to a light whip set to stun. It also showed them using it as a distance weapon to first disarm the Jedi then subdue them before they could recall their lightsabers.  This used two to three individuals harassing until one could entangle and remove the lightsaber so the other two could wrap the arms and start basically tazing the Jedi down.

I figure one on one, from the vids and everything else here, that it's basically a skill/style coin toss on who will win in a lightwhip verses a lightsaber.  But if you add a second lightwhip or second lightwhip wielder that the fight is then descided so long as those two work together to systimatically evade and take down the lightsaber users even if it is two v two.

EDIT: Just remembered my original though on this, what about a regular whip with a lightsaber that can come out of the base? Even a short initiate blade? By using the base of the whip you could have a medium range saber without having to use a force throw? I don't know, to me that sounds like  a more superb combo for use against the common enemies, or even others if you add a bit of cortisis threaded within/on the whip.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 07:15:57 PM by Mitth_Fisto » Logged



Cool Chaos, it's good for business.

ed_ification
Knight Commander
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Force Alignment: -385
Posts: 4171


Darth Cronfios


« Reply #152 on: December 13, 2011, 07:22:55 PM »

All right, you got me. I want to make a lightwhip. I'll need to get my first saber before I try anything crazy, just to see how it's set up, but I'm very curious now as to how my knowledge of traditional whips will work with the lightsaber technology.

I'm thinking to set up a multiple-layer cascading tube out of some kind of transparent material, but I'm not sure what kind would carry the light well enough. Airline tubing is limited in the number of sizes available and I'm not sure it would carry light so much as simply let it pass through. Perhaps I could use some of that semi-transparent film Ultra has. The other option I see is to braid it in the traditional style, applying semi-transparent film to the underside of each lace, and making the laces out of a transparent PVC-type material.

The problem that the Star Wars community faces is the same problem any Cosplay or costume enthusiast faces: Without enough research (i.e. becoming a whipmaker outright), you end up with a product that only looks like it's supposed to, with none of the functionality. When I saw those lightwhips springing back on their user, I cringed. A whip is supposed to track your movements all the way through the thong; you move the handle, the whip goes with it. With just a filament on the end of a lightsaber hilt, you're basically doomed to a towel-snapping technique, which we can see does not mimic the flow of a "real" whip at all.

The way I see it, once I complete a basic understanding of how the lightsaber replica technology functions, and can reliably build or customize my own, I can bring my understanding of the physics of traditional whipcracking to the table. We could see a huge leap in the advancement of lightwhip technology and use. Of course, for safety's sake, I'd have to modify the design parameters to take away some of the force of the tapered thong.

If anyone else tries a traditional style on a lightwhip, please heed these warnings. Whips can be deadly if misused. Anthony DeLongis isn't just tooting his own horn when he says it's like a flexible blade. Adam Winrich can cleave a soda can in half with a bullwhip, and do so cleanly enough that he can drink the soda from the bottom half of the can. Any lightwhip made to resemble a real whip should have no fall (the strip of material tied on to the point of the whip, the part you use to strike with), no cracker (the part that makes sound), and should be tapered as little as possible to minimize impact force. I see it as possible that a taper of three-quarters or one-half original thong thickness could retain enough of the whip's effect to be realistic without causing undue physical injury.

So, with that said, does anyone have any ideas on where I can get a flexible, super-strong, transparent film (5-10mm thick should do), and Ultra's semi-transparent film (or similar material)? I'm anxious to try my hand and see where the results lead.

Would it be possible to build a blade by fusing the diffuser film between two pieces of transparent film?  Basically a sandwich composition of the films?  Would that prevent the wrinkling of the diffuser film that Big Boss hints at, while still allowing most of the flexibility?

And yeah, whips can definitely injure, much like any other weapon.  Definitely be careful...
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Sabers:
MR Vader - ANH
MR Vader - ESB
Dark War Glaive - Blazing Red - "Belligerence"
Standard Issue Grab Bag - Guardian Blue - "Bastion"
2 Shock LEs - Violet - "Perseverance" and "Integrity"
Archon - "Insight"
Dark Initiate - "Harbinger"

BlessedWrath
Knight Lance Corporal
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Force Alignment: 1
Posts: 57

Whipmaker, maillesmith, writer, gamer.


« Reply #153 on: December 13, 2011, 08:01:35 PM »

you got me really excited. Do you sell whips as business or do you make them just for yourself?

Forum rules prohibit the advertising of trade, but yes, I do make them for sale. I believe I have my MSN Messenger ID posted in my profile, if you want to discuss whips outside the forum. I'm not anxious to break the rules in a new forum.

ed_ification, the method you propose is essentially how I was thinking to tackle the problem. Any sort of binding material for the transition would have to be transparent as well, to avoid dimming the blade at the base. I'm thinking heavy clear PVC, cut to tapered strips, then backed with the diffuser film before plaiting.

There's another problem to consider: Lightsaber blades are hollow, while a whip's thong must be solid to function properly. Too much of the film, or too much translucence in the thong material, and you'll dim the blade to an unacceptable level. I'm thinking of an airline tubing core, stuffed with twisted fishing line, fitted with a plaited core filler, then one or two layers of braiding. It should be lighter than most leather whips, but should retain enough of its effectiveness to be usable.

I can begin searching for materials locally, but so far the only leads I've had are USPlastics (who sell a thick polypropylene sheet) and some online art shop who sells stencil film. The stencil film claims semi-transparency, which might produce a similar effect to the film used by Ultrasabers. I can't verify that until I can compare the two.

This project won't start for a few months, at least. I have to save the money for my saber first, then wait until it arrives, familiarize myself with all its features, then analyze its basic setup. After all that is accomplished, I've got to build my own hilt. It won't be easy.

For the hilt, I wanted to use existing MHS emitters so that any standardized saber can be converted to a lightwhip. I will attempt to apply a sort of a "stopper" base on the end of the thong, so that it can be threaded (point-first) through the emitter assembly. Once the emitter is screwed firmly onto the hilt, the thong should have nowhere to go.

Points on care and usage: Proper whips have a natural curve, which assists them in picking up the user's movements. You've got to make sure you coil the whip with the natural curve, not against it. Any traditional whip also has several layers of binding at the transition area (where the thong leaves the handle) to provide response and easy action. This binding layer must not be broken, or the whip will lose much of its responsiveness and power. I will attempt to bolster the durability on both of these points but I can't guarantee as much sturdiness as a standard Ultrasaber. Heck, I can't even guarantee it'll work at all.

But I'll try.
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It is said that energy itself is derived from the interactions between positively and negatively charged particles. The Force, composed of energy and governed by it, is no different. Light or Dark, deny either side and argue against the nature of the whole. Your words cannot split the Universe.

ed_ification
Knight Commander
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Force Alignment: -385
Posts: 4171


Darth Cronfios


« Reply #154 on: December 13, 2011, 10:27:24 PM »

Well, what I was essentially thinking was more like this:


______________________________________________________ - transparent film

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx - diffuser film

______________________________________________________ - transparent film

I wasn't so sure about plaiting those strips together, so much as using the above sandwich to form a solid, flexible tube.  I figured that the tube would transmit light the best way if left in a single feature - plaiting would diminish that, I would think.  Then again - I'm trying to tell YOU how to do what you do for a living, which seems rather foolish.

Would you need to use a brighter LED/more power?  Since the whip "blade" will be longer than a traditional saber blade, I would think that a brighter source would need to be used...
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Sabers:
MR Vader - ANH
MR Vader - ESB
Dark War Glaive - Blazing Red - "Belligerence"
Standard Issue Grab Bag - Guardian Blue - "Bastion"
2 Shock LEs - Violet - "Perseverance" and "Integrity"
Archon - "Insight"
Dark Initiate - "Harbinger"

BlessedWrath
Knight Lance Corporal
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Force Alignment: 1
Posts: 57

Whipmaker, maillesmith, writer, gamer.


« Reply #155 on: December 13, 2011, 10:37:14 PM »

I'm not so sure you'd need a brighter LED, so much as a method for communicating the light farther than in the Ultrasabers blades. I like the idea of a sort of "half mirrored" film on the inside, meant to bounce as much light as possible, even though it means less light makes it through, because that light will have to go somewhere. With no clear exit, and constantly moving surfaces, it's unlikely that any one photon will stay put for very long. I have to believe that increasing the reflective surface on the inside of the "blade" would encourage more even lighting.

As to the plaiting, you're right about the diminished brightness. It can't be helped. That's one reason why I suggested fewer layers of braiding than normal. A hollow tube just won't act like a proper whip; can't be avoided.

Another option, however, might be to bundle a few hundred fiber optic cables together, each one cut at an incremental length, then seal the whole thing over with semi-transparent film and a clear shrink wrap. At least that would have the solid core and taper of a real whip.

I like the variety of options that are popping up. Together, I'm sure we can bring a lightwhip to the table that any fan would be proud of.
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It is said that energy itself is derived from the interactions between positively and negatively charged particles. The Force, composed of energy and governed by it, is no different. Light or Dark, deny either side and argue against the nature of the whole. Your words cannot split the Universe.

ed_ification
Knight Commander
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Force Alignment: -385
Posts: 4171


Darth Cronfios


« Reply #156 on: December 13, 2011, 10:46:36 PM »

I suggest we move to a new thread - this conversation is getting away from how to combat a whip and becoming more about how to build one.
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Sabers:
MR Vader - ANH
MR Vader - ESB
Dark War Glaive - Blazing Red - "Belligerence"
Standard Issue Grab Bag - Guardian Blue - "Bastion"
2 Shock LEs - Violet - "Perseverance" and "Integrity"
Archon - "Insight"
Dark Initiate - "Harbinger"

Darth Stingere
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Force Alignment: -5
Posts: 70



« Reply #157 on: December 13, 2011, 11:47:07 PM »

Duel over, I won. I'll let SOTJ give details if she wants to.
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SOTJ
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Posts: 545


Serenity, the way of the Jedi is serenity.


« Reply #158 on: December 14, 2011, 01:24:53 AM »

Duel over, I won. I'll let SOTJ give details if she wants to.

As Stingere said earlier, we did best of three. The first time around, she hit me on the legs and gave me a nice pop on the back. The second time, however, I ran like a chicken until I reached a suitable tree. She let loose with the whip and it tangled splendidly in the foliage, and I closed in with my saber. She quickly disarmed me and we fought hand-to-hand for a short while (not fair, because I have very little training in martial arts, at least compared to her) until her shin connected with my shoulder. I got up fairly quickly, but she grabbed my saber off the ground and I made a futile attempt to untangle the whip before she landed a light tap to my head. Point for you, Stingere Wink
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