Ben Affleck’s Out As Batman As WB Eyes New Actor To Replace Him

[Darth Knox]

Y'all seem to be somewhat big DC fans here... so let me ask you. Do you think at some point the franchise will simply lose its fan base because of these constant missteps, casting changes, and the like? Granted, I'm sure that many fans will follow wherever it goes no matter what, but with the news of both Supes and Bats going through the revolving door yet again, I can't help but think a good portion of fans will eventually say "that's all I can stands, I can't stands no more! WE'RE DONE!!"

I think some fans have already said that after Justice League.

To be honest, I think the movies will have to be pretty awful to turn off all of the DC fanbase. As mixed to bad as some of the movies have been (in my humble opinion), none of them have been 90s comic book movie kind of bad. Yes, there have been some missteps, but then again so did the MCU during phase 1 and parts of phase 2.

Also, as dedicated as the fan base is, we only represent a tiny percentage of the box office takings. Yes, we're passionate and vocal, love to speculate and debate, but it is the wider movie going audience that dictates box office success or failure.

I think we can see with the tone of the new movies on their way that DC are definitely trying to take the franchise in a newer direction. Some fans have said that DC should just wait a few years and reboot. Others have said reboot now using flashpoint in a Flash movie as the catalyst. However, mixed reviews or not, there is too much money to be made now for DC/WB to wait around for a few years. Plus, it was reported recently that the Flash movie has been put off for at least a couple of years.

However, if Aquaman, Shazam and WW84 are all awful (I'm talking Ghost Rider 2, Batman and Robin, Elektra, Catwoman levels of awful) I don't think the fans will never watch another DC movie ever again. They will just wait for streaming/blu-ray and focus on the CW shows instead, which seem to be getting their universe building right.

[Infinit01]

When it comes to comic book fans like Marvel and DC, these are the breakdowns:

Comic book fans:  These are the fans that have read comic series ever since they were young.  There are some that will criticize the CU for not abiding exactly by the comics and then there are the fans that is happy that there's finally a big screen adaptation of their favorite characters.  These fans will watch the animated series, movies, and read the comics and books just to stay up on the stories.  These fans tend to be more critical of the on screen adaptations than most fan but aren't the majority of the movie goers and tend to be either really biased or open minded.

Cinematic Universe fans: These CU fans have never cracked opened a comic in their life and only watch the CU version of these characters and stories.  These fans tend to be much lenient on the large screen adaptation since they've never read any series and will criticize like casual movie goers in that they will review storyline, character arc, vfx, actors, actresses, and anything related to the movie itself.  Quite a bit of these are casual movie goers as well.  These fans are typically more open minded since they don't have any resources to based the characters and movies on other than the experience itself. 

Casual movie goers: These types of "fans" are ones that stay up to date on all movies and will watch any movie as long as they've peaked their interests.  These fans take up most of the fan base and revenue of all cinematic adaptations as they watch movies consistently and will review them with hardly any biased other than director, actors/actresses, story line, and most of what the CU fans based their reviews upon. 


With that said, bad movie after bad movie will still have audiences for the next round of films since fans and casual movie goers alike will either watch it on the big screen or watch it via streaming platform or on disc.  There will be support for future movies despite lack of good content, the only thing that may change is how they watch these movies.  There might be a small percentage of movie goers and fans that may no longer give the company a chance; however, it wouldn't be drastic.

Just like Knox has mentioned, Marvel had failed movie after failed movie and fans alike still watch the next film.  Look at Spiderman 3, DareDevil, Elektra, (some may also say the first Punisher in the 90s), and the Hulk movies.  Marvel just learn from their mistakes and move on.

I think there will always be a fan base and when some drop off, plenty more will come.

[scifidude79]

Y'all seem to be somewhat big DC fans here... so let me ask you. Do you think at some point the franchise will simply lose its fan base because of these constant missteps, casting changes, and the like? Granted, I'm sure that many fans will follow wherever it goes no matter what, but with the news of both Supes and Bats going through the revolving door yet again, I can't help but think a good portion of fans will eventually say "that's all I can stands, I can't stands no more! WE'RE DONE!!"

Ah, an excellent and point worthy question. Yes, fairly big DC fan here. My favorites are Superman, Batman, The Flash (Barry Allen) and Green Lantern (Hal Jordan and John Stewart.) I'm also becoming an increasing fan of Wonder Woman and Nightwing lately. The movies with Gal Gadot helped me appreciate Wonder Woman even more, along with the Justice League cartoon. I do enjoy reading comics, I've been reading a lot of '80s and '90s Batman, Nightwing and Teen Titans lately.

As for the movies, I'm getting there with a quickness with their live action. I love the older stuff, going back to the 1940s. However, in recent years, things have been not going well. The revolving door of actors tells the tale. It's looking like Christian Bale's record of three feature films as Batman won't be topped anytime soon, as we're about to start over with yet another actor, assuming they can find one and it doesn't go into development hell. The Flash and Green Lantern Corps. are dead in the water. They're holding hope that Aquaman, Shazam and Wonder Woman '84 will keep the franchise going, but I don't know. Aquaman looks good, Shazam looks like it's going to be corny and more kid friendly, though that might actually be what the franchise needs. But, it's hard to say what audiences will like. I think they're grasping at straws here and trying anything they can. If this doesn't work out, we'll probably see a total reboot in a few years, and that's when I'll likely get off the train.

I own almost every live action DC movie, going back to Batman: The Movie from 1966. The only two live action DC big screen films I don't own that I can think of off the top of my head are Superman III and Superman IV. (I even have Supergirl from 1984) I also don't have Steel or Catwoman, but I think that's a given. Neither of those were properly connected to their comic properties and are horrible. There have been highs and lows along the way. I consider the original Superman from 1978 to be my gold standard in terms of DC films, along with Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy. There's an interesting contrast between those, as Superman is very bright and optimistic fantasy, whereas The Dark Knight films are dark, gritty and realistic. Though, they also serve a great purpose as to how things can (and maybe should) be done. Both have loads of character building. If you watch the original Superman film and Batman Begins, you have an interesting phenomenon. Neither Superman nor Batman appear in their origin films until around 1 hour into the film. Yet, none of that time feels wasted, as everything up to that is dedicated to character building. Compared to that, the newer films seem very rushed. Now, I'm not saying every film should use that formula, but it's a stark comparison compared to Justice League, where the three characters who were new to the movies got hardly any character building. We get a little time with Barry Allen, Arthur Curry or Victor Stone. Going to the Marvel side, you have that kind of character building in many of the Marvel films. Iron Man, Captain America and Thor are three that immediately spring to mind. Loads of character building. Plus, there was the genius move to include side characters like Nick Fury and Black Widow in Iron Man 2 and Hawkeye in Thor, so that we didn't need a complete intro to them when The Avengers came around. This is where DC is missing the mark. They're trying to jump in with too much at once. I think it was a massive mistake to jump into Justice League without The Flash, Cyborg or Aquaman having standalone films, or even sizeable parts in previous films. It was a disservice to those characters.

Anyway, that's my take on what DC is doing wrong. They're rushing things and expecting results like they had with Superman and Nolan's Batman films, or like Marvel is having with its MCU. I think they need to slow down and do it right, but they seem to want to rush everything. Well, most everything. I watched the pilot for Titans the other day, and I think that's actually off to a good start. Unlike some people, I won't judge the show based on its pilot, but they did a lot of character building in it. Much of the episode focused on Dick Grayson and Raven, with a decent portion also showing Koriand'r. Changeling doesn't even appear until the end, and they can get into his story in the second episode. Dick actually only appears in costume as Robin once in the episode. They're not rushing anything and I think that episode had more character building than Justice League, and it's only a 1 hour episode VS a 2 hour film.

Anyway, that's my take. Even as a fan, I'm getting fed up with how they're doing things and if they try another reboot, I'm officially out. I'll stick to the comics and animation. I think DC has some of the best comic animation out there, going all the way back to the Superman cartoons from the early '40s, all the way up to the newer films they've been releasing. If anyone needs more money to spend on DC related stuff, it's their animation team headed by Bruce Timm. That team knows how to adapt DC properties into shows and films.

[scifidude79]

Comic book fans:  These are the fans that have read comic series ever since they were young.  There are some that will criticize the CU for not abiding exactly by the comics and then there are the fans that is happy that there's finally a big screen adaptation of their favorite characters.  These fans will watch the animated series, movies, and read the comics and books just to stay up on the stories.  These fans tend to be more critical of the on screen adaptations than most fan but aren't the majority of the movie goers and tend to be either really biased or open minded.

Cinematic Universe fans: These CU fans have never cracked opened a comic in their life and only watch the CU version of these characters and stories.  These fans tend to be much lenient on the large screen adaptation since they've never read any series and will criticize like casual movie goers in that they will review storyline, character arc, vfx, actors, actresses, and anything related to the movie itself.  Quite a bit of these are casual movie goers as well.  These fans are typically more open minded since they don't have any resources to based the characters and movies on other than the experience itself. 

Casual movie goers: These types of "fans" are ones that stay up to date on all movies and will watch any movie as long as they've peaked their interests.  These fans take up most of the fan base and revenue of all cinematic adaptations as they watch movies consistently and will review them with hardly any biased other than director, actors/actresses, story line, and most of what the CU fans based their reviews upon. 

I'm somewhere in between these. I read comics, but not enough to be an expert on anything done in comics, beyond stuff done in certain story arcs that I've read. However, I give movie adaptations a lot of leeway, as you know they're never going to be 100% faithful to the comics. Also, comics have gone through so many different reboots and retcons over the years. I intentionally watch the movies wanting to see someone's vision of how it should be done. Also, I usually won't watch a movie with characters that I'm not interested in, particularly if they feature an actor I don't like.

[Taegin Roan]

I think there is one more category of fans Infinit. These would fit between your "Comic book Fans" and "Cinematic Universe Fans". They are people like me who have read comic books all their lives, but never gotten completely engrosed in them like the Comic book fans. They are people who watch the movies because they know the characters, and love the movies because it is either that or be disappointed (and the majority of the world would rather like something than be disappointed with it). They will have some movies and characters that they like less than others (for me it is GotG2 and Ragnarok). But as a whole they will enjoy whatever they are given. I have enjoyed all of the DCEU movies, because I'd rather look past the flaws and be happy rather than dwell on them and be mad/annoyed. Yes I have some problems with some of them (Suicide Squad), but overall, I have let myself enjoy them. That being said, there are definitely things I'd like to see improved. In both Marvel and DC (though more so in DC).

I do wish that (and I know I've said this before) Snyder had been able to finish his vision (or at least up through JL). Unfortunately with Joss taking over the helm on that one, it really went downhill fast. Yes I still enjoyed it, but it weren't no Infinity War. Seeing all the stuff that would've been in Snyder's version of JL really makes me wish we could get the Snyder-cut, because it would have been amazing. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll happen. Personally (and again, I've said this before), I don't want a complete reboot of the DCEU. Cavill and Afleck did amazing in their respective roles (with what they were given to work with). WW and Aquaman have both been absolutely perfect to date, and even Cyborg was pretty good (though he's no replacement for Martian Manhunter). I still don't like Ezra's Flash, but that is just me. I don't like the idea of using a Flashpoint to reboot everything, because they wouldn't be able to switch out Ezra for someone different. I don't know what they future of the DCEU will be, but I hope it is better than it is looking (not looking at Aquaman, Shazam or WW84, just all the other news).


EDIT:
One other thing I'd like to mention, in general, DC does the "multiverse" a lot better than Marvel. However, Marvel in many ways was actually smarter about it. Instead of there being an Earth-1 that all the stories start on, every single adaption of Marvel is set in it's own Universe (MCU is something like Earth-199999 while the PS4 Spider-Man game is something like 19207). Because of that, they can do anything to any character, and it technically doesn't go against the character. It just means that they are in a different parallel universe where things are not the same. I really think that is one of DC's biggest issues. Everything has to be like it is in the comics, because they didn't do their multiverse in a way that would work for other adaptions.

[scifidude79]

I think there is one more category of fans Infinit. These would fit between your "Comic book Fans" and "Cinematic Universe Fans". They are people like me who have read comic books all their lives, but never gotten completely engrosed in them like the Comic book fans. They are people who watch the movies because they know the characters, and love the movies because it is either that or be disappointed (and the majority of the world would rather like something than be disappointed with it). They will have some movies and characters that they like less than others (for me it is GotG2 and Ragnarok). But as a whole they will enjoy whatever they are given. I have enjoyed all of the DCEU movies, because I'd rather look past the flaws and be happy rather than dwell on them and be mad/annoyed. Yes I have some problems with some of them (Suicide Squad), but overall, I have let myself enjoy them. That being said, there are definitely things I'd like to see improved. In both Marvel and DC (though more so in DC).

Yes! This sums up how I am with this stuff too. I read comics, but not all of them, and I try to see the best in the films. I'm aware of the flaws but choose to not focus on them.

[Darth Tepes]

for me it depends on the Character.  In terms of DC, Superman I am well versed in, next is Batman then WW then on and on.  So I will be very critical of a Superman film over say Green lantern. 

[scifidude79]

Superman and Batman are always going to draw more criticism as they're the main two at DC. Next is Wonder Woman. Those are the only comics that have been constantly published since the golden age. They've also been filmed and animated more than the others.

[Infinit01]

I think there is one more category of fans Infinit. These would fit between your "Comic book Fans" and "Cinematic Universe Fans". They are people like me who have read comic books all their lives, but never gotten completely engrosed in them like the Comic book fans. They are people who watch the movies because they know the characters, and love the movies because it is either that or be disappointed (and the majority of the world would rather like something than be disappointed with it). They will have some movies and characters that they like less than others (for me it is GotG2 and Ragnarok). But as a whole they will enjoy whatever they are given. I have enjoyed all of the DCEU movies, because I'd rather look past the flaws and be happy rather than dwell on them and be mad/annoyed. Yes I have some problems with some of them (Suicide Squad), but overall, I have let myself enjoy them. That being said, there are definitely things I'd like to see improved. In both Marvel and DC (though more so in DC). 

To me, the in between fans were a given. I was just stating the three most common but kept the hybrid fans in mind.  I've read most of the comics and I watch the movies myself.  Unlike most critics or comic fans, I keep an opened mind with the CU rather than criticize it for not being directly like the comics.  If it was, it would be pretty boring so switching things up between the comics and the CU is pretty cool. 

Something that I like to do while watching these big screen adaptations are to find the homage to the comics, characters, side characters, or something like maybe a bank or random character's name within the film. The Easter Eggs.  It makes sure a pretty fun and enjoyable time for me since I like the watch it for the story line and then re-watch it for the Easter Eggs. 

Superman and Batman are always going to draw more criticism as they're the main two at DC. Next is Wonder Woman. Those are the only comics that have been constantly published since the golden age. They've also been filmed and animated more than the others.

Agreed, it's like the X-Men, they're one of the most well known within the Marvel Universe and of course the original trilogy got a lot of flak due to it going completely left with it's story lines and character arcs.  The newer younger (X-Men Origins and newer) X-Men are 50/50 so far with their films. 

[Edon Bluewolf]

Just saw this thread, and it made me smile.    Sorry Batfleck fans but it had to be done and deep down you know it too.

Now if they really had balls, they would make an NC-17 rated Lobo the Last Czarnian movie.  You know what I'm saying?

And no I don't think Michael Bay is the man for the job.

[Darth Knox]

Marvel had failed movie after failed movie and fans alike still watch the next film.  Look at Spiderman 3, DareDevil, Elektra, (some may also say the first Punisher in the 90s), and the Hulk movies.  Marvel just learn from their mistakes and move on.

Spiderman 3 was made by Sony and Daredevil and Elektra were made by 20th Century Fox. It's a minor thing, but there's a difference between a Marvel movie (one actually made by Marvel) and a movie featuring a Marvel character. To the general movie going audience, they usually don't know the difference (in fact I work with people who don't even know the difference between DC characters and Marvel characters) but comic book fans do.

I agree with everything SFD69 wrote above. I think DC/WB are finally realising that they cannot just make movies with popular characters like Batman or Superman in the lead and expect massive box office returns; the quality of the movies has to be good. Very good. Audience expectations is much higher now, especially when it comes to the comic book movie genre.

[Infinit01]

Spiderman 3 was made by Sony and Daredevil and Elektra were made by 20th Century Fox. It's a minor thing, but there's a difference between a Marvel movie (one actually made by Marvel) and a movie featuring a Marvel character. To the general movie going audience, they usually don't know the difference (in fact I work with people who don't even know the difference between DC characters and Marvel characters) but comic book fans do.

I agree with everything SFD69 wrote above. I think DC/WB are finally realising that they cannot just make movies with popular characters like Batman or Superman in the lead and expect massive box office returns; the quality of the movies has to be good. Very good. Audience expectations is much higher now, especially when it comes to the comic book movie genre.

I'm aware of the different studios and ownerships, it was late and I was rushing to finish up but you get my point.

[Darth Knox]

I'm aware of the different studios and ownerships, it was late and I was rushing to finish up but you get my point.

That's no excuse! Go stand in the corner and think about what you've done.

[Infinit01]

That's no excuse! Go stand in the corner and think about what you've done.

Ah man...

[scifidude79]

Oh goodness, that was friggin hilarious. I was already laughing when I read what Knox wrote, then Infinit01 took it over the top with the pic. Points for both of you for the early morning (or late, depending on your point of view) laugh.