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Author Topic: Help clarifying "that" feeling of intuition  (Read 3440 times)
Slate15
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« on: November 14, 2018, 04:48:25 PM »

Hello combat section! I was hoping the resident masters and experienced members could help me crystallize/formalize a description of a phenomenon I think many of us are familiar with. (heads up: may be a bit long. I thank everyone for reading and am GREATLY appreciative of anyone that replies/discusses)

It's somewhere between muscle memory and imagination, somewhere between the rigidity of the rules and unbound creativity, somewhere between strength of body and power of mind. It's that intuition of how to move, of how to string together the fundamentals in a way that "makes sense" without "thinking about it". It's that familiarity with all the tools in your toolbox, knowing what those tools are capable of, and knowing which to utilize for a given situation. How the bricks, each complete and sturdy on their own, come together to form a structure that is greater than the sums of their parts (the house, wall, etc). Pardon the overly poetic mixed metaphors; just trying to get everyone on the same page.

I've done various martial arts for ~20 years so I'm familiar with this feeling. Recently I've begun to help out at a local lightsaber enthusiast club, teaching students. I've found one of my biggest barriers is how to properly convey this idea. Like, yeah, we all "know" that the fundamentals must be learned before moving on. But why? The students in this club do it as a hobby (college club, spare time activity) so I don't want to train them like martial artists (drills, physical conditioning, stern hand) as I'd argue the group plays a larger therapeutic/relaxation role than self-improvement. But some DO want to improve like that but I'm having a hard time giving them a clear answer as to why it's necessary and what it feels like.

Yeah, I've got the metaphors from above but those are very much a "you'll know it when you experience it" thing. Which is fine. I guess. But I want something that can convey the idea to my students BEFORE they get there so they can help orient their own growth, even if just a little bit, towards that. You can walk a familiar path with your eyes closed if you've traveled it 1000 times. But you can also travel the same path, the first time you walk on it, with a sufficient map; even if you haven't experienced it first hand, you understand what to expect. I'm looking for a good map!

So I ask you, combat section, please share your wisdom with me. Your definitions. Your stories. Your exercises and demos. Anything you think might be useful in helping an "uninitiated" to understand this concept before they are truly capable of it themselves. Even if you don't have a complete thought or opinion, please share what's on your mind and maybe, through discussion, we can refine something together.

Thank you for your time!

"The more advanced you get, the more fundamental you become."
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wandering-seeker
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2018, 01:02:06 PM »

Thinking about this, the gut impulse is to say that the state you're describing can only be reached by extensive training. You need to give your students the bricks, hand them the tools and make them comfortable using them without thinking. Admittedly, though I've had a lot of martial arts experience (15 years across several disciplines), I've never trained so I can only speak about it from my own training and combat experience. I had an instructor at the school I spent the most time at, who believed that in order to be a fighter, his students had to be able to fight blind. So he would set us onto Iron dummies, starting with the wooden models and calling strikes and forms for sometimes up to an hour, and then when he thought we were ready, blindfolding students and having them repeat the exercises, or train with heavy bags and no sight. But training was often for hours at a time, with entire sessions dedicated to a singular concept.

But my first actual experience of it, was in a match where I found myself falling into something that I can only describe as the "out-of-time", and this is the state that I think has to be reached to create a perfect synthesis with the fluid combination state. When time seems to slow down, and you can almost tell what the enemy is going to do before they commit to it. When you're in that place, the fight becomes a language that you can execute almost at leisure, because everything seems to make sense and you know what to do without needing to think, because you're existing in a state of deep instinct.

Beyond that, I would say there's a mental state that is helpful, beyond the intensity and repetitiveness of training, if you can train your fighters to expect defeat, I believe that fighters can accomplish something amazing. It's not the same as having no fear. Fighters with no fear make stupid mistakes, overextend themselves and get hurt. But if they're accepting of defeat, then they've lost the only fear that is worth fearing, the fear of failure. In that state, they can be the most important thing, well-trained fighters who are at peace.

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Musashi Padawan
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2018, 08:50:16 PM »

Excellent post and topic Slate! I love breaking down these type of concepts and trying to define that which is mystifying. We were just going over some of what you describe last night with a couple newer students. They were to the point where we start putting together basic striking methods, angles, parries, footwork into a maneuver (or technique). Most weapon arts teach something similar; think the waza or oji waza in Kendo. The point we were emphasizing was that these maneuvers don’t really work in the wild. Meaning you should not go into an engagement and think, “ok, time to pull off this sweet move”. But by learning the concept and purpose behind the move, such as controlling the center line or killing the sword AND building muscle memory to certain situations, one can start to develop the skills for combat. We need something to apply all the fundamentals to and that gets played out classically through these set moves.  Then with repetition, good instruction, fitness, creativity, etc, those maneuvers slowly take less thought and less thought until they take NO thought. That is the point where experience + skill begins to = intuition. Musashi did write, “you can only fight the way you practice”.
Now on a lighter note, the really bad example of how this idea loses meaning with some martial arts McDojos now and days is the scene from Napoleon Dynamite where he and his brother go for a free lesson and the Rex Kwan Do sensei shows off a technique that takes several attempts for the attacker to grab him the right way.
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2018, 11:35:38 PM »

Man, that’s a great scene.
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« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2018, 09:12:39 AM »

Without any mystical mumbo-jumbo, it's a combination of muscle-memory and synaptic connections in the brain. Both are built through repetition - BUT not by drilling as it ist done in most "traditional" martial art schools.

"Drill" is a military method to school large numbers of soldiers in a relatively short amount of time in basic techniques. This has been adopted into "classical" martial arts training, as one on one training is not possible in profitable schools. The problem with that method is, that it builds up muscle-memory but does nothing to put it into context. That's why quite a lot of even high-grades lose against opponents from other styles or have at least big problems with them.

What we find in older traditions (not only, but also, in European styles) is a method of "applied repetition". The pupil learns the very basics: stance, footwork, attacks, defence, distance & timing. This can be done in a relatively short time, as it only has to be learned to a level, where it can be done sufficently well.
From now on, the pupil works on so-called Plays, series of techniques in an if-then way. Every Play serves to teach certain principles, where those basics are applied over and over again, in various situations.
What happens is, that even seemingly complex movements are broken down into their simple parts, and those stored in muscle-memory. Additionally, by forcing the student to apply techniques under varying conditions, the synaptic connections in the brain are built to an extent, where those if-then connections can be used a lot faster.

So, in freeplay, the brain reacts to all the input along fast lanes, deciding on the best course of action, while the muscles respond in almost no time. Naturally, this method of learning takes time, quite a lot of it, actually.

I have a 30+ years background in various martial arts, but I've never really trained in longsword, having settled quite fast with Bolognese in my HEMA career. Nevertheless, I've beaten some long-term longsworders in friendly matches, quite to their surprise. To me, it doesn't matter what weapon I'm using or what my opponent's style is - I'm applying basic principles and movements under varying conditions.



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« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2018, 11:04:34 AM »

I'm by no means an expert on martial arts.
But what I have found so far while learning in my lightsaber class and even more while self-training for a few spins whenever I found the time was the importance of what I call "Proprioception". If "Perception" is the ability to sense your environment relative to your body, it's the other way around with "Proprioception". With it you know where your hand is even if it's out of your sight (something we use all the time really).

To train that I started in my own spining sessions to take one move, practice it very slowly and up the pace as I felt more and more confortable. I would then do it again while keeping my gaze fixed on something. Looking at a tree of the landscape in the distance I would again practice the same spin slowly and up the pace at I went. When I felt at ease with it I would put my earplugs in with music and, blindfolded, do the same thing again. The process takes time and repeating but at some point I found I had no need to think about that particular move while perfoming it.
Than you can move on to other techniques and as you go you end up stringing two or three of these move in a sequence. That sequence being learned in such a way would become something you can do at anytime, flowing naturally as both your brain and body know what to do.

I take lessons to learn new moves or new sequences but it's only through practice on the side that I can really understand and LIVE these moves.

It's about the same as starting by learning to read and write before at some point you end up on the phone, looking at you computer while taking notes. You don't see the paper or pen. You sentence is not fully rehearsed. Your attention is shared between the conversation, the computer and the writing. Yet your manage to write the words down legibly. When you first started learning to write you never would've thought you could one day do something like that. But at some point you realize you just did. It's the best way I can describe it.
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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2018, 09:19:15 PM »

Forgive me if I don’t get straight to the point, but I’m going to go the long way for contextual purposes. I started formal training in American taeqwando when I was 11. It was very Americanized traditional large scale classes. Training was mid level in intensity. About 13 I doubled up with golden gloves, and did both for a few years. Boxing was very tough, up close a personal for me. At 17 I gave both up and started with United Studios training in kenpo. Did that till I was a green belt. Same general style as TKD, large classes, mid level intensity. When I was 19 I began studying Akido and Kenjitsu. Did that for almost three years until a childhood friend who had just achieved his 2nd degree black in American TKD started his own dojo. We trained very, very hard, BUT, and that is a BIG BUT, we did it that way because it was so fun to train together as friends/brothers, and we enjoyed it so much. It was very relaxed as far as expectations, and we did it in small intimate groups, with the ability to focus on specific aspects of the art as we needed. In all my years I truly feel my skill set jumped lightyears during that time in a way it had never before. If I have a point, it’s this; being able to fight intuitively only really comes after years of practice. So that being said, in my experience, practice is always best when it’s enjoyable and feels rewarding. If there is a happy medium between intense and fun that’s where I’d love for training to live, and in my case, at my age, that’s how I do it for me, my son, and my wife. Only time will tell if they have been instructed well enough to be able to put concepts into action when called upon. I don’t know when it became 2nd nature for me, or of it even really does. I DO know I’ve fought a lot in my life, and had many lessons(losses) on the street, and I still get apprehensive at the thought of actual combat. I’m not sure if I’ve added anything to this conversation I terms of the question asked. I find it hard to quantify feelings. But I felt like it was worth sharing, I guess, and this was the place to share.😁
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2018, 01:07:18 PM »


What we find in older traditions (not only, but also, in European styles) is a method of "applied repetition". The pupil learns the very basics: stance, footwork, attacks, defence, distance & timing. This can be done in a relatively short time, as it only has to be learned to a level, where it can be done sufficently well.
From now on, the pupil works on so-called Plays, series of techniques in an if-then way. Every Play serves to teach certain principles, where those basics are applied over and over again, in various situations.
What happens is, that even seemingly complex movements are broken down into their simple parts, and those stored in muscle-memory. Additionally, by forcing the student to apply techniques under varying conditions, the synaptic connections in the brain are built to an extent, where those if-then connections can be used a lot faster.

So, in freeplay, the brain reacts to all the input along fast lanes, deciding on the best course of action, while the muscles respond in almost no time. Naturally, this method of learning takes time, quite a lot of it, actually.



This!

To add to this, how you train is how it will come out.

" Don't think......Feeeeeel " ( the hardest concept for most Martial Artists to understand IMO. Well, that and relaxing...but that is a different topic entirely. )
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2018, 08:06:16 PM »

I love this topic as it cracks up the formality of the regular (and no doubt very effective) ways of training.
The beauty of this is to find a legit ratio of how the mind and saber shares the scene in practicing.
One way to convey - as you say - the idea to your students before they experience "the thing" might be to set their minds' focus and align the techniques with it.
Actually it's quite fun as there's "The Force" to embody and it gives a good excuse to harmonize the mind with the body.
For me the whole experience of practicing martial arts had a substancial "level up" when I brought my mind back behind the lines of my body. It resulted in a sharp focus which empowered my whole practice while I stopped wasting energy. It was just a moment first, it grew later on and I loved it, this was the thing I have been after ever since.
To help others find and maintain this "state of being" through saber practice is a beautiful and as much challenging thing. When someone finds me with a genuine need to experience this, I try to describe how it feels like "inhabiting my own body" and how it helps to let go everything from my mind which is not me in that moment and in that space. Dropping all thoughts and concepts in a certain moment is harder than it sounds but a step worth making to free up a lot of energy occupied by other things than the here and now and also provides the liberty of acting the way we intend.
With a saber in hand it can be a resourceful practice to keep the mind's focus within the lines of the body and practice the control of just being there and not to move at all until that focus can be transferred to the saber with a technique as effortlessly as possible. This can be something like "using the Force" and enjoying how totally different a move can be with this focused awareness of oneself and without a bunch of thoughts about what happened yesteday with him or her, who was that guy/girl trying to derail my plans in the office, did I like that food or whether the other who watches me right now likes or not what I'm doing, etc.
Carrying and generating thoughts away from the self and the practice (the here and now) not just make everything heavier but increases the chance of injury and makes the whole activity pretty pointless with no reward.
Being aware in the here and now helps to clear out everything from the mind what does not belong to the self right there and sharpen the focus while also opening the possibility to discover the self and be amused by what we can find in it. So I move my mind first, then the saber until they learn to move together. It's a different kind of "muscle memory" but for me it works well and I enjoy it quite much.
Not sure if this makes sense or answers your question, forgive me if not (there's quite a chance I misunderstood your post Smiley)
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2018, 09:15:01 PM »

Well done master M! I personally have to work on being present in all the aspects of my life. It’s great advice.
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2018, 02:16:36 PM »

"The more advanced you get, the more fundamental you become."

This quote is, in itself, a good summary of the feeling. It's also a good primer on *WHY* the basics are so important to train and learn and understand.

The more advanced you get, the more the fundamentals become a core part of how you naturally move. As you grow your experience, you come to realise that mastery is often the realisation that the "advanced" techniques are actually just a blurring of the lines between basic moves. One of the best examples I've seen was a karate sensei sparring with a yellow belt, and he beat the guy cleanly on every action while never using any motion the kid hadn't learned as a white belt. He wasn't using anything "more advanced" than his student had been taught. His student was using more advanced techniques. But he was using the basics just that much better.

The reason he did that? A student asking exactly that question - "why do we have to practice all these basic things? We already learned them as white belts. We had learned them in the first 3 months and had to take another 9 before we're allowed to move on, and now we still have to keep doing the same things still". Black belts still use those same things. And often that's ALL they use. That's WHY those are the basics. Because they're the building blocks from which your ability to control any situation that's thrown at you are grounded. I've done similar when sparring with novice opponents who are learning basics but want to try doing fancy things. Doing fancy moves doesn't help you in a fight, unless you're constructing those fancy moves out of basic actions you can flow smoothly between.

The fundamentals are like the foundation of a building. If you don't keep them strong, everything else falls apart under pressure.
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2018, 08:45:00 PM »

Without any mystical mumbo-jumbo, it's a combination of muscle-memory and synaptic connections in the brain. Both are built through repetition - BUT not by drilling as it ist done in most "traditional" martial art schools.

"Drill" is a military method to school large numbers of soldiers in a relatively short amount of time in basic techniques. This has been adopted into "classical" martial arts training, as one on one training is not possible in profitable schools. The problem with that method is, that it builds up muscle-memory but does nothing to put it into context. That's why quite a lot of even high-grades lose against opponents from other styles or have at least big problems with them.

What we find in older traditions (not only, but also, in European styles) is a method of "applied repetition". The pupil learns the very basics: stance, footwork, attacks, defence, distance & timing. This can be done in a relatively short time, as it only has to be learned to a level, where it can be done sufficently well.
From now on, the pupil works on so-called Plays, series of techniques in an if-then way. Every Play serves to teach certain principles, where those basics are applied over and over again, in various situations.
What happens is, that even seemingly complex movements are broken down into their simple parts, and those stored in muscle-memory. Additionally, by forcing the student to apply techniques under varying conditions, the synaptic connections in the brain are built to an extent, where those if-then connections can be used a lot faster.

So, in freeplay, the brain reacts to all the input along fast lanes, deciding on the best course of action, while the muscles respond in almost no time. Naturally, this method of learning takes time, quite a lot of it, actually.

I have a 30+ years background in various martial arts, but I've never really trained in longsword, having settled quite fast with Bolognese in my HEMA career. Nevertheless, I've beaten some long-term longsworders in friendly matches, quite to their surprise. To me, it doesn't matter what weapon I'm using or what my opponent's style is - I'm applying basic principles and movements under varying conditions.





This topic is an excellent one Smiley

And I like this answer!!

Look at what happen in the majority of MA that are codified to become a sport: there are many MANY possible attacks but when come the world championships or the Olympic Games, top fighters mainly use the more simple and basic ones ...
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Slate15
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2018, 05:50:34 PM »



Wow! Lots of good response! I definitely can't respond to everything everyone said like I'd prefer to but let me highlight the stuff that really got my attention.

[...] where I found myself falling into something that I can only describe as the "out-of-time" [...] When time seems to slow down [and] the fight becomes a language that you can execute almost at leisure

[...]those maneuvers slowly take less thought and less thought until they take NO thought.

[...]but at some point I found I had no need to think about that particular move while perfoming it [...] in such a way would become something you can do at anytime, flowing naturally as both your brain and body know what to do.

We trained very, very hard, BUT, and that is a BIG BUT, we did it that way because it was so fun to train together as friends/brothers, and we enjoyed it so much. It was very relaxed as far as expectations, and we did it in small intimate groups, with the ability to focus on specific aspects of the art as we needed.

[...] it helps to let go everything from my mind which is not me in that moment and in that space. Dropping all thoughts and concepts in a certain moment [...].

That's WHY those are the basics. Because they're the building blocks from which your ability to control any situation that's thrown at you are grounded [...] If you don't keep them strong, everything else falls apart under pressure.

All of the above comments seem to touch on a particular psychological phenomenon called the “flow state” (TED talk by the progenitor of the term: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXIeFJCqsPs ; I strongly recommend you play the video at 1.25x speed. He talks slow haha). This state ISN’T quite “the zone” that athletes sometimes talk about; that’s about pressure and expectations and “winning”, achieving some type of concrete goal. Flow is more about feelings of control, contentment, enjoyment, relaxation, a loss of self and negative critical thoughts, distortion of time…this feels VERY familiar to what the comments above are talking about.

In that video, interviewed folks say that their content creation (art, music, actions) was sort of automatic. And it only showed up in folks who were familiar with their craft (Csikszentmihalyi comments he’d never be able to experience flow for music composition because he does not know how to do it). Csikszentmihalyi also references that it takes about 10 years for someone to be able to create something meaningful, which echoes everyone’s comments about learning the fundamentals in martial arts.

So I wonder if we (collectively, all of us here), could aim to teach the “uninitiated” about this feeling by putting the students in fabricated situations meant to induce flow (the “requirements” are talked about in the video). Like…1v1 training is not reliably possible due to time constraints, but what if there were a series of 1v1 lessons early on (not the first lessons, but middle-beginning lessons) to try and inspire that feeling? Maybe get the students “addicted” to it and crave it, promoting/prompting self-motivated study?

Thoughts? Thanks everyone for their replies and thoughts on the issue! I am excited to see where this goes.
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