What’s Wrong With The New SW Films?

[StoryDtechtive]

I’ve avoided this topic because it has caused so much animosity in the SW community. And while I don’t say it is impossible to have a perfectly good explaination for the direction the recent movies have taken—and I believe JJ Abrams is capable of doing that—most of the problems can be summed up in two words: Story Structure.

As a fan, I’m annoyed with the character development. As a writer, I have to look at what’s going on through different eyes.  And here, I’m not entirely satisfied either.  There are several points to be made, and I’ll touch on a few in brief. If anyone wants further explanations, I would be glad to go deeper if anyone is interested.

First of all, let me say that story structure is a very malleable canvas. It can also seem formulaic in the hands of most Hollywood blockbusters and the writers who cater to the same film with different (yet similar) characters, and different (yet similar) circumstances. It becomes like pop music where the corporations backing them wants a hit, so it all has to seem pretty much like the films they last made money from. This is why corporate thinking is essentially ruining all creative entertainment.

The recent SW films are not quite as formulaic as most of the blockbuster films. And this could result in a better payoff, provided there’s a plan to pull things together in the end. But the structural integrity has taken some risky turns I don’t understand, and are bound to rock the fans. This could be intentional as well, as a writer’s job is supposed to be able to get a strong emotional response from their audience. Love or hate, it doesn’t matter, the writer wins because they achieved their goal.

The problem again is the pay off. because you can’t keep stirring things up for a negative reaction without satisfying the audience in the end. You’ll never satisfy everyone, but the overall finale has to live up to it’s promise, by a reasonably high degree.  Even if it doesn’t answer everything.  Nor should it, because all stories need to end with the feeling of something more to come, even if there is never a sequel. Stating that, we move onto the main problem...character development.

The characters, their arcs (or lack thereof), are a huge factor in the recent films. And I’m not even talking about what they did with Luke Skywalker (yet), but the new characters featured in these films who are supposed to be the next generation who carry on this tale. So let us take a brief look at Rey and Kylo, since so much hinges on them.

Rey (the current hero) has to be both strong and flawed. Where exactly is her relatable flaw? An identity crisis? Because the hero seeking out what happened to their parents can be interesting, but it’s also a cliche. So you better do something unique to lure folks into that one. Have they? Nope. The hero is also supposed to be the catalyst for what happens in the end. If they aren’t, then it’s not their story, but someone else’s. And while Rey did seek out Luke and convince him to get involved, she didn’t exactly have a direct impact on the finale.  And when it came to putting down Snoke, she didn’t really have an impact there either, it was Kylo. Also questionable in terms of creating her as the strong character she was purported to be in TFA.  Her influence over the dark side is mainly her connection with Kylo—and this is the only right thing they’ve done because the hero and villain (when done right) could almost have been one another under different circumstances. So out of a possible four stars, stengths, flaws, relationship to villain, and catalyst for outcome...Rey gets one star.

Kylo Ren (current villain) is supposed to be Rey’s flip side. And again, their mental rapport and intrigue with one another is a point for his character as well.  Is he a strong villain though? His training is incomplete, he has not proven himself in battle, and he flipped over to the heroes side by killing Snoke, thus obliterating his strongest ally and mentor. I suppose the act of killing Snoke was there to make him look strong, and to put him in the seat of power. But like everything Kylo does, it just makes him look hot headed and out of control—amateurish, in other words. His lack of emotional stability could be a strong flaw, but it has been used against him too much and to a degree that’s overwhelming any potential strengths he might have. And how are his schemes foiled in the end? By being the same hot head and looking like a fool when all is said and done. He’s not written cleverly at all.  And so I can only give him one star as well—under the same category I gave it to Rey.

Now, you don’t have to be a writer to sense when these things are off.  And it can sabotage the entire plot if both the hero and the villain are not represented by strong characters on opposing sides.  And I guarantee you, no matter what they did to Luke—even if he came in and blew everyone’s mind at the end and pulled things together on his own behalf, the film itself would seem bumbling because of the above mentioned flaws in the hero and villain. That sort of grandstanding in the end would’ve made it Luke’s movie as well, and not Rey’s. So no matter how you slice it, you end up with the same poorly developed characters. Because you can’t fix what’s broken on a foundational level.

The best we can hope for is that these things are done to construct an overall acr for the story that will pull it together as one larger seamless tale rather than individual films. It could be done.  I could do it.  Therefore, JJ Abrams can as well.  But he has a lot of ground to cover.  Because he not only has to pull the current characters together, but conclude everything the films have built up to this point—including all the jedi masters who have become one with the force and supposedly stronger.  We have seen Yoda bring down physical lightning which destroyed the tree library. So there’s a clue right there that the finale may actually touch on these things because previously we’ve only seem past Jedi as ghost images giving advice and not showing physical manipulation of the force.

Time will tell...

[Darth Tepes]

Pretty Much 100% agree.  When you add in the new books, comics and games..the story is all over the place.   The purpose of purging the EU was supposed to be a fresh start with more cohesion.  But that is hardly the case.

[StoryDtechtive]

Agreed...and though I haven’t kept up with the current comics, they are usually stories which take certain tangents. Some for the better, others not so much depending on the writer. And even when they get something very good going, the next movie often pisses all over it.

One very big thing for me—and the film series in general—is that the first two trilogies were all about Anakin. TFA carries his legacy forward with Kylo Ren, the burned Vader helmet, and his wanting to be the next DV. So they really need to bring Anakin into the conclusion and at least give some nod to the fact that this all happened because of him. Because what began with him, has to end with him on some level.

[Darth Tepes]

Agreed...and though I haven’t kept up with the current comics, they are usually stories which take certain tangents. Some for the better, others not so much depending on the writer. And even when they get something very good going, the next movie often pisses all over it.

One very big thing for me—and the film series in general—is that the first two trilogies were all about Anakin. TFA carries his legacy forward with Kylo Ren, the burned Vader helmet, and his wanting to be the next DV. So they really need to bring Anakin into the conclusion and at least give some nod to the fact that this all happened because of him. Because what began with him, has to end with him on some level.

One of my main issues is (again cohesion) the mysteries JJ began in TFA didn't just go unaddressed in TLJ...but were ignored completely.   There is a subtle line in TFA when Kylo is speaking to Vader's helmet...he says "Show me Again...."  That "Again" really stood out to me.  Was Snoke manipulating Kylo's mind to think he was seeing Vader?  When Vader died did his Dark Side spirit Remain, much like Revan?    I remember early on they said every draft where Luke was in it from the start he took over the film.  Why was that an issue?  Star Wars IS about the Skywalkers.... I know many don't like that but in the end that was Lucas' whole idea.  The Story of Anakin Skywalker.  

  On the subject of comics I would only recommend the Vader comics (which sadly just ended).  They were the bright spot in this whole mess.

[StoryDtechtive]

One of my main issues is (again cohesion) the mysteries JJ began in TFA didn't just go unaddressed in TLJ...but were ignored completely.   There is a subtle line in TFA when Kylo is speaking to Vader's helmet...he says "Show me Again...."  That "Again" really stood out to me.  Was Snoke manipulating Kylo's mind to think he was seeing Vader?  When Vader died did his Dark Side spirit Remain, much like Revan?    I remember early on they said every draft where Luke was in it from the start he took over the film.  Why was that an issue?  Star Wars IS about the Skywalkers.... I know many don't like that but in the end that was Lucas' whole idea.  The Story of Anakin Skywalker.  

  On the subject of comics I would only recommend the Vader comics (which sadly just ended).  They were the bright spot in this whole mess.

Yes! I thought the same thing about Kylo and the helmet. I was very disappointed he didn’t have visions, or more conversations with the helmet. My initial review of the movie—somewhere on FB—saw this as a missed opportunity.

I heard the Vader series was good and saw some artwork that looked quite good. When they put this out in a collected edition, it’s on my list to buy.

[Darth Tepes]

Yes! I thought the same thing about Kylo and the helmet. I was very disappointed he didn’t have visions, or more conversations with the helmet. My initial review of the movie—somewhere on FB—saw this as a missed opportunity.

I heard the Vader series was good and saw some artwork that looked quite good. When they put this out in a collected edition, it’s on my list to buy.

I highly recommend them. 

[scifidude79]

I actually think, of the new characters, Poe Dameron has the most character development. We actually see him evolve, especially in the second film, to becoming what Leia wants him to be, a successor for her. The general theme with Leia in TLJ is her being tired, both physically and mentally, of the fight and ready to turn it over to a younger person. She sees those qualities she possesses in Poe, but they don't manifest until the last quarter of TLJ. Poe started off as a hotshot pilot in TFA, which was all he needed to be in that film. He was able to use those skills in practically every scene he was in and it worked for him. However, he suffered two major setbacks in TLJ. The first is when he destroys the dreadnought at the cost of his bombers and their crews. Unfortunately, he deosn't learn from that mistake, and goes and makes another one with his plan to destroy the tracker on Snoke's ship. That blows up in his face, and he tries to mutiny, which is the big mistake. That and seeing Holdo's plan (which, no matter what some people think, an Admiral was under no obligation to share with a captain) take shape and that his way of just blowing stuff up isn't the only way helps him see the light. He come full circle on the planet. He finally sees what needs to be done and takes charge, as evidenced by Leia saying, "Why are you looking at me? Follow him." She now approves of him as her successor.

Finn probably has the second most character development, though his journey is a little different. He gets kind of annoying at times, but he also represents parts of humanity that some people probably don't want to acknowledge; like that desire to run away from the fight. Even when he turns his back on the First Order, he runs. He tries to get away from them and only goes back to save Rey. In the second film, he tries running again. Again, he's pulled back in by a desire to protect Rey. The event that teaches him and makes him evolve into a true Rebel is also the failed mission to destroy the tracker on Snoke's ship. Facing the First Order once more, as opposed to running from them, seemed to help him evolve.

Kylo is actually more interesting than Rey, in my opinion. He's trying to be a villain, but he's still conflicted. I do like that he didn't do what a lot of people expected him to do and side with Rey after the fight in the throne room. But, he's a mixed bag for sure. I actually didn't like him much at all in TFA, but more so in TLJ. Rey is definitely the least fleshed out character in the films. She comes from nothing, just a scavenger on another dust bowl planet. But, she doesn't really suffer that many setbacks. The Force comes easily to her and she seems to be able to use it with little or no training. I actually hope there's an explanation for that, like she was trained by someone and that person used the Force to put up mental barriers and implant false memories. But, I don't know if they'll go that far with her. I think Disney and Lucasfilm wanted a strong female lead, which is fine. But, it's like they didn't want to make her vulnerable at all. If you look at other Disney heroins, they have their setbacks. I don't know why the path has been so easy for Rey.

Now for the part that might be a less popular opinion. As much as I love seeing them again, I'm not sure having Luke, Leia and Han back was as much of an asset as it was supposed to be. Firstly, Mark, the late great Carrie and Harrison are (or were) fantastic. I loved seeing them again. However, I think they were also a distraction. It wasn't as bad with TFA and Harrison, as they had Han doing what Han does best, and he did die trying to redeem his son in the end. I didn't hear/see too many complaints about that. However, with TLJ, the majority of the gripes I've seen with the film seem to stem from what they did with Luke and Leia. Their arcs were designed to "pass the torch" to the new generation, but I think they actually hindered the new characters. Also, a lot of people (including Mark Hamill) didn't like what they did with Luke, and there was much complaining about the "flying" (Force pulling) sequence with Leia, so I don't see them necessarily being an asset to the film in terms of helping the story or new characters. I don't personally have issues with these parts and I can actually quite easily explain them, but they distracted from the new characters and less of their story got screen time as a result.

Now, I like the films, but I'm willing to acknowledge there are flaws, particularly in the area of character development. (provided the discussion can remain civilized) In terms of them not doing something people liked with a character's story, particularly the original trilogy characters, that's just how it goes. I'm not even going to touch any of that. People complained that TFA was too much like the original film, so they made TLJ totally different, and people complained about how different it was (also, different from the EU, which we knew they weren't following or acknowledging.) So, people don't even know what they want, so there's no way filmmakers can know and predict what people want to see. Or, as I like to say, you can't please everyone.

[StoryDtechtive]

There’s some very good points here. Which doesn’t surprise me as I think we have a really good group of people here. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have stated my own opinions. I’ve seen too many flame wars over this subject.

SFD, I totally agree with you in terms of the secondary characters. And the original characters did get in the way. I believe they were there to pass the torch and also give some closure to what their lives had become and were dedicated to.

The Leia scene could have been more accepted if they planted some clue that she was honing her abilities with the force. I could even skirt around this one on the presumption that people have, and can, utilize certain latent strengths when under severe pressure.

Luke was the one who is most difficult to excuse. They used him to plant a lot of things concerning the Jedi order and how convoluted it had all become.  And as I previously stated, the grandstanding at the end really stoled the show away from Rey. I believe he could’ve done all that as a means of distraction and still pushed Rey into facing some part of herself, her training, anything to pass that torch to her and involve her more directly. They chose not to do that, and the results were clumsy—to put it kindly.

I fell Rey’s Past is still to be explained, as we only have Kylo’s word that her parents were of no importance. He may have been playing on her fears and abandonment issues to lure her more deeply toward the dark side. Her knowledge of the force, however, was a direct result of the mental rapport she shares with Kylo. This had always been my take on it, and they explained this further in one of the comics as well...she was able to mentally absorb what he knew, his training, and use of the force. The fact she bested him in the end, as I take it, having the same knowledge, no two warriors will use such skills equally.  And while Kylo is hot headed and rushes in for the kill in a fight, he is far less focused here, while she was more level headed and prone to keeping her focus.  She isn’t necessarily better at manipulating the force on all levels, because in TLJ Kylo clearly does much more in terms of telekinesis than Rey, but I think it’s safe to say she is capable of paying attention to the steps within the dance of hand to hand combat.

[Darth Tepes]

That was one of the main problems.  It wasn't a "Passing of the torch" It was a "Lets put the torch out, bury it and light a match and try and convince people its just as bright."   




Scifidude... let me just say you should never be afraid to voice your opinion.  Speaking for myself I can and will say I hate TLJ and 99% of what they did with it.  especially Luke.  Yes, I can get a bit passionate about it but will never devolve into dehuminaizing insults.  If you like TLJ...I'm ok with that even if I don't understand it...so Please, dont be hesitant to discuss it.    Now..in terms of this.......

People complained that TFA was too much like the original film, so they made TLJ totally different, and people complained about how different it was (also, different from the EU, which we knew they weren't following or acknowledging.) So, people don't even know what they want

I have heard this before...this assumes the arguments are coming from the same people....for the most part..they are not.   I liked TFA...didn't love it...but I liked it and thought it was a good start.  I was so hyped for TLJ....until I saw it.   So basically two different groups are getting their arguments lumped together.

[scifidude79]

Yeah, I was typing that in a hurry. Instead of "People don't know what they want," the last sentence should have been "You can't please everyone." You please one group with making TFA so similar to the original film, while others wanted something different. The people who wanted something different may have been pleased with TLJ, while the ones who liked that "original" feeling of TFA may not like it so much.

However, I do know people who complain about TFA being too close to the original and don't like the different direction they went with TLJ. Those are the ones I don't get. You can't have it both ways, sorry.

And, I know lots of people like me who like both films.

So, as I said, you can't please everyone. The problem is that the people with negative reactions seem to be the "loudest." But, eventually, this will pass. The movie coming out in December will end the Skywalker story line, one way or the other. Some people will like it, others will hate it. That's how these things work. Eventually, Disney will move on to other Star Wars stories.

The Leia scene could have been more accepted if they planted some clue that she was honing her abilities with the force. I could even skirt around this one on the presumption that people have, and can, utilize certain latent strengths when under severe pressure.

I look at it more that her latent abilities kicked in by reflex. She inherited Anakin's bloodline, just as Luke did. So, it stands to reason that she has a natural ability in the Force, she's just never use it before. She subconsciously used the Force to form a protective bubble around here and then pull herself back to the ship. She likely didn't even know she could do it. The same thing happens in the real world, when people in crisis situations tap into an inner reserve of strength that they didn't know they had. They do this by reflex, and can't reproduce that level of strength later.

[StoryDtechtive]

I look at it more that her latent abilities kicked in by reflex. She inherited Anakin's bloodline, just as Luke did. So, it stands to reason that she has a natural ability in the Force, she's just never use it before. She subconsciously used the Force to form a protective bubble around here and then pull herself back to the ship. She likely didn't even know she could do it. The same thing happens in the real world, when people in crisis situations tap into an inner reserve of strength that they didn't know they had. They do this by reflex, and can't reproduce that level of strength later.

That’s exactly what I was getting at, but you explained it better

As far as people not knowing what they want—there is a healthy percentage of every audience, in every media, that falls into this category. I can’t give you exact percentages, but I can come close and bring you into that ballpark of insanity when it comes to making movies for a company as large as Disney.

Almost anything you might do as a creator, or on a public level, can be divided into thirds as far as your audience/followers and haters. On the opposing ends of that spectrum are those who will love you no matter what you do, and those who hate what you do for absolutely no rational reason other than maybe they don’t like the way you look, or speak. Those extremes are always there, but they do not comprise the majority. Unless you’re as large as Stephen King and the lovers outweigh the haters because you’ve developed a huge following. In which case you’ll have more control and be able to mostly do whatever you like within your sandbox. For the rest of us, it goes something like this:

First third: these are thinking people who know their own mind. They don’t fall into the average 12 year old mentality they say most movies are made for. I find the 12 year old notion insulting, since I fall into this first third category who likes some depth and intelligence in my stories. This third will go along with your ideas if presented well, and often appreciate them for what they are if the story doesn’t talk down to them or cheat by playing things too safe, or try to fool them by pulling things out of your butt at that last minute twist. Logic, and a well structured story is key here.

Second third: Let’s call then fence sitters. They are the middle ground of your audience. They can go in either direction because this group will often follow those who yell the loudest. They can appreciate good stories, yes, they can, but will also lay down their money for those blockbuster films everyone else is going to see for no other reason than they follow the pack. It can be a bit of a coin flip depending on which side of the fence they get pulled toward. For example, they might be looking forward to seeing your movie because they read the book or heard some initial good things, then hear several bad reviews and get back on that fence, or change their mind in favor of the movie that’s pulling in larger audiences at the box office.

Final third: Hardest to please. Call them the easily riled, or often offended third. Because all the crap spewed by the media, biases, angst, whatever is floating around to get pissed off about, they’ll be the category who in primitive times would want to break out the torches and pitchforks run through the streets in search of Frankenstein’s monster. Even if the monster only exists in their minds. So if your story touches on any note that riles them into a frenzy, they’ll want to burn your story at the stake.  And they can be very loud in their opinions because no one should have a contrary opinion. Don’t make them think too much, because that’s too much like work, and don’t press their buttons. This is the part of the audience that makes big companies want to play it safe. They are also the strings some people play on when they want controversy because there’s no such thing as bad publicity in terms of getting either end of the emotional spectrum reacting...but that’s a much harder hand to play for most writers and takes a certain kind of mentality. You’ve probably seen those celebrity figures who made their career by jumping on their soap box and making almost everything thrown at them a controversy. That’s the type of personality that usually manipulates this third and somehow manages to benefit from their angst.

This is how the human race breaks down in almost everything we undertake in large groups or when dealing with a mass audience. So when you’re working on a story, you really can’t please everyone. And making movies for any of the larger companies is a huge task to keep on point with your original idea and have your vision not be destroyed by committee vote. This is the downside of being creative in any popular media.

The writer mainly writes for themselves initially, considering their target audience at conception, and when revising. The editor takes the script and lays their vision over it. Set designers, director of photography...if it’s done right, everyone should add a layer and build on the original story. It will never be exactly what the writer first envisioned, but the audience won’t know that. As long as the structural integrity is there and everyone does their job, it can work.  But the corporate heads have a whole other set of of decrees based on luring in the majority of the audience and playing it safe. And this can change as the world around us changes from one decade to the next.

They will always change the original ending. Usually for the worst.  They might feel there’s not enough humor—even if you’re not writing a humorous story. Not enough romance, not enough cutesy factor. Whatever their demographics tell them in terms of their bottom line (box office sales), they will demand arbitrary changes in accordance with this amorphous criteria, as well as the opinions of their test audience after the project is glued together.

I used to want to make movies. And I hope some of the current projects I’m developing find their way to film. But I know there will be little resemblance to the actual stories if that happens. No delusions here. Consider what Joss Whedon said about the first Avengers movie: he was writing changes on set, trying to make the film work as a whole with almost daily changes. And by the time he was finished, there was only one scene remaining from his original script. I have to hand it to him, because that movie was one of the better comic book adaptions up to that point because Whedon understood the characters and grew up reading comics. But he was exhausted physically and emotionally trying to keep that story together and have it make any sense as a whole. Not everyone can do it—or has that kind of dedication to an almost impossible, ever evolving process. You do your job to the best of your ability and hope the final product gets edited together in a way that works as a whole on a structural level and as a film.

[SerenityActual]

I think what might be wrong is that there seems to be no overarching idea for the series. JJ did TFA then handed the reins to Rian and said "Here you go", now we have reports that JJ is trying to fix the trilogy with the last film. Now, I'm not going to hate on TLJ, but it does have a lot of problems, but it also has some good ideas. The whole idea of Snoke linking Rey and Kylo through the force, the throne room scene, the scene at the tree with Yoda, and several more. I accept the death of Luke, I would have preferred it at the end of the trilogy, going out in a fight with Snoke. Kylo turning on Snoke was a beautiful scene, but I would have liked to know more about Snoke before he was offed.

Back on target: if Disney. Lucasfilm and JJ had sat down and said we are starting at point A and want to hit points B-E in this first movie, F-M in the second and N-Z in the last, we might have gotten a better series of film. But this is just my own opinion. Take it for what it's worth. It and five dollars will get you a small coffee at Starbucks.

[StoryDtechtive]

Point incoming for you Serenity...for your story points and just because you need some force alignments points here on the boards

And I agree. TLJ does look like it’s stepping too far outside those things set up in TFA. Yet, I know those types of meetings you suggested for the film arcs had to have happened. Something got in the way with TLJ. Which is why I rambled in the last post about how zany things can get when making a big budget films for a large franchise, under the even larger umbrella of Disney.

At some point, probably when all this is finished and over, we will hear some of those reasons why it occurred. As a fan, I’m honestly hoping there will be an extended director’s cut that fits things back in there that might help make better sense. But this would have to mean some of those things were actually filmed. As it stands, it really puts the pressure on the last film to fix these things and still create a successful conclusion.

Possible solutions and questions in my mind:

Luke: Did Luke, finally accepting those things he was hiding from, and going on to join Obi Wan, Anakin, Yoda, those who already moved into some higher force alignment, finally step into the role they’ve been waiting for him to accept? And if they were waiting for him to take up that mantle and join them, is this so their combined strength would be great enough to finally achieve some sort of balance in the universe at last?

Rey and Kylo: How might these two be instrumental in achieving that balance? Will they eventually unite and become the living embodiment ascended Jedi work through? Because if there’s a new order, someone has to take up that mantle. And being two sides of the same coin, lacking without one another, could also be why neither of them manage to fully take up their own mantle. Because it is not a mantle they can take up separately because they are supposed to do it together once they get their own crap worked out and get out of their own way. This, or something like it, would be the probable outcome based on what has been established so far, as I see.  Because as the story has evolved so far, this would at least make some sense out of what seems to be lacking in the two leading roles of Rey and Kylo. Skirting all the mistakes—or things just left out of TLJ—this would make the most sense in my mind. Because their lack of taking up strong opposing roles as hero and villain is possibly because they aren’t supposed to do so individually.

There are a lot of side issues, such as the real story of Rey’s parents. Or were they really just of no importance? How does it tie in strongly with Anakin? Which is the heart of the whole SW storyline.  And about a hundred other questions of equal or lesser importance. All the secondary characters need to have their arcs tied up as well. These are problems more easily solved in most cases. But I believe these are the key factors the next film has to figure out a way to successfully conclude.

This also bring about the question that, if Kylo was never meant to be the next big bad in the SW universe, and it obviously isn’t Snok who was the ultimate puppet master, then who is? Because we need a real villain to flesh this story out, lets face it. We haven’t had a real imposing villain since Vader. And the obvious answer is : Darth Maul.

[Darth Tepes]

Point incoming for you Serenity...for your story points and just because you need some force alignments points here on the boards

And I agree. TLJ does look like it’s stepping too far outside those things set up in TFA. Yet, I know those types of meetings you suggested for the film arcs had to have happened. Something got in the way with TLJ. Which is why I rambled in the last post about how zany things can get when making a big budget films for a large franchise, under the even larger umbrella of Disney.

At some point, probably when all this is finished and over, we will hear some of those reasons why it occurred. As a fan, I’m honestly hoping there will be an extended director’s cut that fits things back in there that might help make better sense. But this would have to mean some of those things were actually filmed. As it stands, it really puts the pressure on the last film to fix these things and still create a successful conclusion.

Possible solutions and questions in my mind:

Luke: Did Luke, finally accepting those things he was hiding from, and going on to join Obi Wan, Anakin, Yoda, those who already moved into some higher force alignment, finally step into the role they’ve been waiting for him to accept? And if they were waiting for him to take up that mantle and join them, is this so their combined strength would be great enough to finally achieve some sort of balance in the universe at last?

Rey and Kylo: How might these two be instrumental in achieving that balance? Will they eventually unite and become the living embodiment ascended Jedi work through? Because if there’s a new order, someone has to take up that mantle. And being two sides of the same coin, lacking without one another, could also be why neither of them manage to fully take up their own mantle. Because it is not a mantle they can take up separately because they are supposed to do it together once they get their own crap worked out and get out of their own way. This, or something like it, would be the probable outcome based on what has been established so far, as I see.  Because as the story has evolved so far, this would at least make some sense out of what seems to be lacking in the two leading roles of Rey and Kylo. Skirting all the mistakes—or things just left out of TLJ—this would make the most sense in my mind. Because their lack of taking up strong opposing roles as hero and villain is possibly because they aren’t supposed to do so individually.

There are a lot of side issues, such as the real story of Rey’s parents. Or were they really just of no importance? How does it tie in strongly with Anakin? Which is the heart of the whole SW storyline.  And about a hundred other questions of equal or lesser importance. All the secondary characters need to have their arcs tied up as well. These are problems more easily solved in most cases. But I believe these are the key factors the next film has to figure out a way to successfully conclude.

This also bring about the question that, if Kylo was never meant to be the next big bad in the SW universe, and it obviously isn’t Snok who was the ultimate puppet master, then who is? Because we need a real villain to flesh this story out, lets face it. We haven’t had a real imposing villain since Vader. And the obvious answer is : Darth Maul.

Really, to fully understand what is going on is Star Wars now would require getting into subjects that are verboten here on the forums.  I wish it was simply about story..but it isn't.  Simply put those in charge now saw Star Wars as something that needed to be "fixed".  As to what happened with TLJ...Rian Johnsan was given cart blanche to do what ever he pleased...so he disregarded everything that either didn't make sense or matter to him.  An Example would be in a quote I read from him some time ago where he said he asked himself "Why would Luke be there on that island"  his only conclusion was he was there to die.  That shows (to me) a very narrow imagination among other things.  I could go on for a while.  As to your Darth Maul theory....get through Clone Wars and then to Rebels...and You'll have your answer.

[StoryDtechtive]

Really, to fully understand what is going on is Star Wars now would require getting into subjects that are verboten here on the forums.  I wish it was simply about story..but it isn't.  Simply put those in charge now saw Star Wars as something that needed to be "fixed".  As to what happened with TLJ...Rian Johnsan was given cart blanche to do what ever he pleased...so he disregarded everything that either didn't make sense or matter to him.  An Example would be in a quote I read from him some time ago where he said he asked himself "Why would Luke be there on that island"  his only conclusion was he was there to die.  That shows (to me) a very narrow imagination among other things.  I could go on for a while.  As to your Darth Maul theory....get through Clone Wars and then to Rebels...and You'll have your answer.

There are a myriad of foolish and personal reasons why things have taken some wrong turns with the TLJ. Most of which comes under the umbrella of writing stories by committee. And creative reigns changing hands and the differing visions that ensue. Sometimes this can work when you give an established franchise a fresh set of eyes. A strong vision could breath new life into something, but they have to have an understanding of what came before so they know how to break the rules effectively when taking those leaps. Divide that by so many things being filtered through the gigantic fan base that SW has and it be a delicate ground to tread.

Here’s the latest news I saw this morning as our own Lord Sidious chimed in on this subject on his YT channel:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl2fXx9IsmM

Upon first seeing the title of his video, I thought, “Oh, my...all my theories have just been knocked into a cocked hat!”  After watching the video, however, I thought otherwise. I believe this bit of news comes under the heading of hints of what may occur, presented in a way to rile the fans and create word of mouth.

And while I agree with everything LS says in his video about character development (much of which is echoed in this thread), we have to consider a few facts. If Rey dies and is resurrected, then JJ really isn’t killing off the character and rendering her absolutely useless in the SW universe. At least, not yet. So I’ll reserve my opinion there until I see the film. Because it may still fall within some of the parameters I’ve laid out in previous posts as far as the direction things might go in to pull things together.

A death and resurrection may be necessary to explain some of the questions I previously posed. And I’ll camp in this just a bit longer and see if reasoning could possibly prevail.

Taking those things I previously mentioned concerning the ascended Jedi masters, if the final film is to bring any of this into play—as hinted at by Yoda physically bring down lightning to destroy the tree library, then, is it possible Rey has to cross over the barrier between life and death in order recieved a broader vision?

There’s also no physical bodies once the Jedi died. They just sort of dematerialized, or were absorbed entirely into the force.  We’ve seen them as astral projections, but can also operate in the physical realm. Why they haven’t done more of that and helped the cause to which they still seem dedicated to, is beyond me, but has always been at the edge of my mind. Obi Wan’s word, “Strike me down and I shall become stronger,” always returning with the question of, “Stronger how?”  And what are they waiting for?

Here we can only speculate. Maybe for Luke to work out his personal angst and join them. Maybe for Rey and Kylo. And again I have to return to Rey and Kylo’s ultimate purpose. They aren’t just useless characters. There has been a plan from the onset. There’s always an outline for a series before it begins. So I believe there was a plan. Can plans change? Yes. And this is the part where the choices by too many hands can be unpredictable. Those hands, in spite of all the personal beliefs they had (Luke going to the island to die, for example), are given the basic specs of where things are headed. Sometimes the overlords are extremely strict and the margins for originality are slim. Other times it might be put into the hands of someone they give greater range of mobility to, just as long as the story gets from point A to B.

The way a director reasons out “why” this or that happens is their own. But it doesn’t necessarily mean they’ve gone far afield in terms of the plan. It might just mean they’ve presented it poorly...in the film and in their dialogue with the fans. Or were all those jolts that didn’t seem to follow TFA intentional? Because at the heart of story is a law which states, Do not answer any of the questions posed in the set up until the last possible minute. And keep the audience hanging until the final act.

Not saying TLJ was a great film. But it certainly skirted all the answers and took us into left field.  And ignoring all the hype—which I usually do—I maintain the poorly done parts were foundational at the character development stage. If those things were also left out intentionally, then that’s a big gamble and could quite possibly come under the heading of lousy writing.