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Author Topic: Protection Gear  (Read 4363 times)
Illyiss
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2019, 08:50:22 PM »

If you are planning on any full contact dueling, 50-60$ is NOT expensive to provide durable and reliable protection that will last many years. Most stunt sabers cost twice as much as a good fencing mask. We are talking about the most important part of your body. If this is a hobby you are interested in, it is an investment that needs to to be made. Tape measure and charts for sizing before ordering and worst case - Amazon offers free returns. I see no debate here. Red Dragons are nice but somewhat bulky. I have not seen any sparring heavier than what we do at the Academy and Kevlar reinforced HEMA rapier gloves have kept me broken finger free for years now. I do recommend supplementing any glove you choose with fingertip protectors like these:
https://www.woodenswords.com/SPES_Fingertip_Protectors_Set_of_10_p/spes-fingertips.htm


Oh I'm not saying that it's not a good investment, just that what is expensive or not is relative.  While even just $50 is easy for some to drop (let alone the $100+ for better ones that many dueling orgs require with back of head protection), for many, that's a month's food budget, or a decent chunk of it.  I'd like to see the sport be more accessible, which is rough on fixed and/or low incomes.  Which is sadly the vast majority of the populace, at least in the US.  Especially when that's not the only piece of gear in that price range needed.  Saber aside.
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Darth Pandæmis

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AstraVlad
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2019, 10:47:12 PM »

I would like to point out that "inexpensive" is a VERY relative term.
An average 350N epee fencing mask that is MORE than adequate to lightsaber combat costs around $50. It is inexpensive. You do not need anything fancy to fight and with our safe blades you do not need any additional head protection (I do HEMA and have full set of protective gear but I never ever use it with a lightsaber -- it is just no need for it).

If you are planning on any full contact dueling, 50-60$ is NOT expensive to provide durable and reliable protection that will last many years. Most stunt sabers cost twice as much as a good fencing mask. We are talking about the most important part of your body. If this is a hobby you are interested in, it is an investment that needs to to be made. Tape measure and charts for sizing before ordering and worst case - Amazon offers free returns. I see no debate here.
+1

Red Dragons are nice but somewhat bulky. I have not seen any sparring heavier than what we do at the Academy and Kevlar reinforced HEMA rapier gloves have kept me broken finger free for years now. I do recommend supplementing any glove you choose with fingertip protectors like these:
https://www.woodenswords.com/SPES_Fingertip_Protectors_Set_of_10_p/spes-fingertips.htm
Yes, fingertip protection is nice to have. Sometimes you get hit really hard at the fingertip and it is not pleasant at all Smiley.

Regarding gloves, probably it depends on the blades. We use HeavyGrade Ultrasaber blades and my fingers are still feeling pain from the yesterday's fights Sad. RedDragons are bulky but they offer much better protection. Though it is a matter of personal preferences of course.
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Illyiss
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2019, 11:28:20 PM »

An average 350N epee fencing mask that is MORE than adequate to lightsaber combat costs around $50. It is inexpensive. You do not need anything fancy to fight and with our safe blades you do not need any additional head protection (I do HEMA and have full set of protective gear but I never ever use it with a lightsaber -- it is just no need for it).


Good luck convincing the dueling organizations of that.  *I* agree, hell, I duel with others in an agreed upon no head shots, no thrusts game, and there are rarely problems, but it you are going to allow head shots, a mask is needed.  If you're going to thrust, chest and groin is probably a good idea.  Protective gloves can be a good idea, even if you make hilts and hands non targets, it still happens. 

As for $50 not being expensive, come live my life and tell me that.  Most months of the year, that's most, if not all, my food budget, and not because of leisure spending.  As I said, it's not an unfair price, it's just not always easy to have to spend.  If you still think it's easy to toss out, I'll send you my paypal. Tongue
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Darth Pandæmis

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AstraVlad
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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2019, 12:12:43 AM »

Good luck convincing the dueling organizations of that.  *I* agree, hell, I duel with others in an agreed upon no head shots, no thrusts game, and there are rarely problems, but it you are going to allow head shots, a mask is needed.  If you're going to thrust, chest and groin is probably a good idea.  Protective gloves can be a good idea, even if you make hilts and hands non targets, it still happens.
Tournament organizers always tend to be over-cautious but you do not need to follow that rules in your club. We fence without ANY restrictions at all and we live quite well with mask and gloves being the only protective gear. Some people even fight without a protective gear at all (I did it myself for half a year when I started). It's painful sometimes (being stubbed to the throat while wearing no protection is not the most pleasant thing in the world) but you will not die... probably Smiley.

As for $50 not being expensive, come live my life and tell me that.  Most months of the year, that's most, if not all, my food budget, and not because of leisure spending.
S*** happens Sad. Hope you will be better off in some time.
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janx
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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2019, 06:57:07 PM »

From my practical experience of 20+ years of intermittent light sparring with wooden swords (plus fencing in college and a black belt):

I got started with no protective gear as a teen.  Made wooden swords and rules. No head or groin.  Hands got whacked the most.  Leather gloves with cotton gloves underneath helped.

Turns out that glove trick was needed in college as we didn't have enough fencing gloves (did have helmets and jackets).

You CAN start with that little, but, your risk of injury is higher.  And a school can't afford that risk (nor will their insurance let them).  So once you get formal, expect to need to get gear.

Observation: When my wife's saber arrived today, we tried them out in the living room.  She noted that to make the clash sound, you have to hit harder.  Which approached some near-injuries.  So I stopped it soon after.  The fun of the FX instigated higher risk levels than I usually saw with careful light sword work using boffers or wood.

Be careful.  Work your way up to full protection as your budget allows, but keep it light and controlled until you have expert supervision and gear.

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AstraVlad
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2019, 11:35:54 PM »

People are much more robust than it is generally accepted. You should just get rid of your fear and embrace pain Smiley

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts-FjmWmeWY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts-FjmWmeWY</a>
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janx
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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2019, 05:43:30 AM »

People are much more robust than it is generally accepted. You should just get rid of your fear and embrace pain Smiley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts-FjmWmeWY#


fear? No. I'm middle aged and have a $6,000 deductible. I got enough bills.

Heck, I have plates in my head from when I was a purple belt sparring a black belt. And I came back and earned my black belt.

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Musashi Padawan
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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2019, 06:17:49 AM »

People are much more robust than it is generally accepted. You should just get rid of your fear and embrace pain Smiley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts-FjmWmeWY#

At the Academy we always say, “train safe today so you can train tomorrow”... Controlling one’s adrenaline, breathing and flight/fight response is key to mastering so-called “fear” in sparring. We talk about these concepts a lot.
But training without adequate safety equipment has nothing to do with becoming a better martial saber practitioner.
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AstraVlad
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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2019, 11:50:45 AM »

fear? No. I'm middle aged and have a $6,000 deductible. I got enough bills.
I'm sorry, I always forget about that part of the American life Sad. You do have reasons to play it safe.
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Cern
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« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2019, 09:16:38 AM »

how would this work for light dueling?

https://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Full-Protection-Knight-Templar/dp/B06ZZDQ5QQ/ref=sr_1_12?keywords=templar+helmet&qid=1562170569&s=gateway&sr=8-12
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Musashi Padawan
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« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2019, 09:45:10 AM »

Depends on how “light”, I mean there are groups wearing only goggles that refer to dueling. But in my opinion, stopping BBs is a lot different than a blunt object coming with some force. If you are engaging in anything organized or competitive, I would recommend a fencing mask. They are easy to customize and paint to look cool and not much different in price.
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janx
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« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2019, 10:35:57 AM »

I went for my second saber class held at a nationally acclaimed fencing school.

no gloves, no helmets during lights-out free sparring time at the end.

Got tapped on the head and hand a few times while dueling the instructor. Both instructors appear to be well skilled in the art (rather than randos who watched a youtube video and started a school).

Talking later, after class, their view is that more pads and protection tends to lead to heavier, more reckless contact, not safer.  I'll note that NFL injury records support this, as pads got better, players hit harder.

I'd still advise wearing gloves, because I use my fingers for work (mine are fine, but I can still feel an ache in the ones that got tapped).

A fencing mask is also a  good idea.  Despite both parties having good control and no lasting pain, I could have broke glasses just as easily).

With those in place, I still see their point.  Barring a yack-hole getting stupid, two reasonable students will self-moderate themselves because they're not feeling armored and invulnerable.

Mileage may vary based on the people and styles of combat involved.
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Illyiss
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« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2019, 11:32:18 AM »

Also, something to keep in mind, force = mass x acceleration.  Speed increases impact as well.  When you throw fast shots, even without brute force behind them, they hit hard.  I am large, and throw fast shots (taking advantage of small windows), and get accused of hitting too hard at times.  Slowing down is hard, telegraphs, and throws off timing.  Hand/wrist, face/head are probably good ideas.  If you aren't stabbing (those I duel with do not allow it), gorgets and cups are less important.

Janx brings up a good point, when you armor up, you swing harder, and so do those trying to make sure you feel it.  Escalation happens.
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Darth Pandæmis

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janx
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« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2019, 11:57:58 AM »

Also, something to keep in mind, force = mass x acceleration.  Speed increases impact as well.  When you throw fast shots, even without brute force behind them, they hit hard. 
..snip...

True, but...as part of my martial arts training, I learned control.  Perhaps a fancy way of saying "pulling my punches."

An advanced martial artist should be able to strike fast yet hit the target with a feather's touch just as easily as breaking through a board.

That means not over-extending such that you have no choice in the matter or knowing which moves require that kind of commitment, such that what you are doing can always be retracted or halted. Especially when you are supposed to be doing light contact.



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Musashi Padawan
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« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2019, 12:21:14 PM »

Also, something to keep in mind, force = mass x acceleration.  Speed increases impact as well.  When you throw fast shots, even without brute force behind them, they hit hard.  I am large, and throw fast shots (taking advantage of small windows), and get accused of hitting too hard at times.  Slowing down is hard, telegraphs, and throws off timing.  Hand/wrist, face/head are probably good ideas.  If you aren't stabbing (those I duel with do not allow it), gorgets and cups are less important.

Janx brings up a good point, when you armor up, you swing harder, and so do those trying to make sure you feel it.  Escalation happens.
Yes, good points all around. This IS all very relative. Some like flag football, I prefer tackle. And yes, increased equipment does allow for heavier contact. However, I would disagree that increasing safety equipment leads to more reckless sparring. In a controlled environment with proper experienced instruction and oversight, going too hard or outside the established etiquette is simply not tolerated.  Nor does equipment lead to poorer technique, in fact I would argue the opposite. As Illyiss points out even with supreme control, one can not use a full repertoire of techniques while at the same time slowing down. A big part of training is not only mastering footwork and technique, but mastering these in such a way that one increases the speed. Speed wins sword fights most of the time over brute force.
So in summary, to go full speed for me means more challenge, fun and technique. But full speed also requires safety. To prevent injury and be able to train tomorrow, I recommend equipment.
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