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Author Topic: Dual-Wielding  (Read 2568 times)
AnonoftheSea
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2019, 12:34:29 AM »

While I've yet to find someone to play the glow sticks with, I can tell you, based on years of escrima, that you do have to train with both at once. you can train with your off hand to improve your single-stick skills, but if you want to get better at moving both hands around at once, you gotta move both at once.
You do, in fact, need training to use them, you can think of them as extensions of your arms all you want, but it took you the first several years of your life to figure out how to use those things. not to mention that being able to move your arms and being able to fight with them are very different things. There is a very large training gap between even a bad boxer and someone who took a boxing course in college.
I may be biased, but look up escrima double stick drills. Very pretty when using a saber, and excellent for practice.
And, really, if you're going double, cut down to a shorter blade; longer blades are just too clumsy to learn with or control with one hand, you'll get better faster with something that lets you really work on control. That said, reach is important in a fight, so don't go so short you can't close.
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Bob Loblaw
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2019, 01:55:28 PM »

While I've yet to find someone to play the glow sticks with, I can tell you, based on years of escrima, that you do have to train with both at once. you can train with your off hand to improve your single-stick skills, but if you want to get better at moving both hands around at once, you gotta move both at once.
You do, in fact, need training to use them, you can think of them as extensions of your arms all you want, but it took you the first several years of your life to figure out how to use those things. not to mention that being able to move your arms and being able to fight with them are very different things. There is a very large training gap between even a bad boxer and someone who took a boxing course in college.
I may be biased, but look up escrima double stick drills. Very pretty when using a saber, and excellent for practice.
And, really, if you're going double, cut down to a shorter blade; longer blades are just too clumsy to learn with or control with one hand, you'll get better faster with something that lets you really work on control. That said, reach is important in a fight, so don't go so short you can't close.

Well said my friend. 100% agreement. Do you prefer Light side or Dark side points?
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obliviondoll
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« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2019, 02:56:03 PM »

And, really, if you're going double, cut down to a shorter blade; longer blades are just too clumsy to learn with or control with one hand, you'll get better faster with something that lets you really work on control. That said, reach is important in a fight, so don't go so short you can't close.

Musashi Padawan commented about using "regular + shoto", and this is a good alternative to shortening both blades. Also, incidentally, an equivalent to the more famous Musashi's style of dual-wielding in Japan. The European dual-wielding styles also commonly involve a dagger or shortsword in the off hand with a longer main hand weapon. It's particularly common for European styles to emphasise the use of the main hand weapon as the "weapon" and to almost treat the off-hand weapon as a "shield" with only occasional strikes of opportunity using it. One short blade and one long is a lot less "clumsy" than trying to dual-wield a pair of equally long blades, but doesn't sacrifice reach like you do when cutting both blades down. Even in the hands of an inexperienced/untrained person, a shorter off-hand weapon is much less awkward than trying to take a pair of full-length blades. Dual shorter weapons can be easier to learn, but the gap between short/long and short/short isn't nearly as big as trying to run a pair of long blades.
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Galef
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« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2019, 04:01:38 PM »

I am very excited to start practicing my dual-wielding sabers.  My Jedi character uses a pair of short sabers that can couple together as a staff on occasion.
I want both the blades to be the same length for symmetry and like the look of short, paired sabers.  Plus, I figure two 24" blades are technically more blade than a single 36" blade.

Does anyone find that you lose "power" by dual-wielding as each saber only has 1 hand on it?
I find the opposite is true for staffs.  The extended hilt gives you more leverage
That's why I like both because they are opposed styles that seem to complement each other.

Single sabers seem like the combo of both.  You get some of the leverage from having both hands on the same saber without having to worry about where the backend of the saber is.

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- Sentinel LE v5 in VA w/ Lite Sound & Silver FoC - 32" Purple blade
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Sakura No Kaze
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« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2019, 11:17:08 PM »

I am very excited to start practicing my dual-wielding sabers.  My Jedi character uses a pair of short sabers that can couple together as a staff on occasion.
I want both the blades to be the same length for symmetry and like the look of short, paired sabers.  Plus, I figure two 24" blades are technically more blade than a single 36" blade.

No, they actually aren't. You don't have any longer reach with two 24" blades than you do with one 24" blade. Moving towards each other, I could hit you 12" sooner with a 36" blade, which means I can kill you before you can reach me. And it only gets worse since I normally use two sabers, both with 36" blades. But even with a single saber, I can still hit you from further away than you can hit me.

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Does anyone find that you lose "power" by dual-wielding as each saber only has 1 hand on it?

Yes, that's pretty much always true, although there are ways to compensate for that.

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Single sabers seem like the combo of both.  You get some of the leverage from having both hands on the same saber without having to worry about where the backend of the saber is.

That's one of the great misconceptions about a double bladed saber, both from the wielder's point of view, and their opponent's point of view. Usually people try to keep track of both blades, but you don't have to. If you know where one blade is, you automatically always know where the other blade is. Unless you quick release the double saber into two separate sabers, one blade is always opposite the other.
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Galef
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« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2020, 06:13:33 AM »

All true. But I mean more from aesthetics, two 24" blades are "more blade" than a single 36". It's overall 48" of color. It's prettier, it what I'm saying, but not necessarily more functional.

Although,  if someone where very skilled, could they not use one short saber to block a 36" blade and step in for a killing blow?
Does range really outweigh having 2 blades?
Obviously would be outmatched against a dual 36" wielder.

I really don't intend on doing any "hardcore" dueling as my opponents will be my teen boys, but they will both have 36" single blades, so I at least wanna gets some basics.

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- Apprentice v4 staff in AB w/ 26" pointed Photon blades & QR coupler
- Sentinel LE v5 in VA w/ Lite Sound & Silver FoC - 32" Purple blade
- awaiting RGB Aeon v2 for my flat acrylic 'Darksaber' blade
Wishlist - Crimson Scorpion in GB w/ V4 sound & Red FoC

Oldest son - Fallen in Tri-Silver w/ v4 Sound - color discs or 34" Blue blade
Youngest son - Phantom Initiate v4 in Tri-Red - 28" Red blades
Wife - Dominix LE v3 in AB - 28" Blue blade

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Sakura No Kaze
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Force Alignment: -114
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DS if I've earned a point.


« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2020, 11:35:33 AM »

All true. But I mean more from aesthetics, two 24" blades are "more blade" than a single 36". It's overall 48" of color. It's prettier, it what I'm saying, but not necessarily more functional.

Ok, I can understand that. This is just a difference in view point, where I always look at functional first, and pretty almost never. Neither is wrong, it's just a matter of what you're trying to achieve.

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Although,  if someone where very skilled, could they not use one short saber to block a 36" blade and step in for a killing blow?

I hate that I have to say "yes" as an answer to this question. Although it's only partially skill, it's actually more about speed: can I disengage from your block and cut you before you can get to me. In it's simplest form, using a single 36" blade against two 24" blades, I would probably knock your left hand blade from the inside out. Reflexively you would probably move forward with your right hand blade. However, since I'm inside your two blades, I would simply bring my blade back across, and since you're moving forward, most likely cut off your hand/arm. Then, depending on what you do with your left hand saber, either take that hand/arm off, or simply cut you in half across your midsection.
 
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Does range really outweigh having 2 blades?
Obviously would be outmatched against a dual 36" wielder.

It very much can, and usually but not always should. The "problem" most people who dual wield have is that they tend to attack with only one blade at a time. Thus only one blade is needed to counter them. Although it's a choreographed fight, I refer you to Dooku vs. Anakin in AotC. Although Anakin has two blades, he only ever attacks with one, thus Dooku has no problem defending against him. What you want is to be striking at your opponent with both blades at the same time from angles where it's impossible to block both blades at the same time.

In fact, in our example, given that the range difference is so great (12") I could almost literally just stand with my blade pointed straight out at your chest, and you'd impale yourself on it before you were in range to be able to hit me, even on the hand/arm holding the saber. And that's only if I'm just holding a static defense. If I'm actively attacking you, range really matters because you'll never be in range to counter attack without at least also getting hit yourself, and probably hit first at that. One other interesting thing that tends to happen with people who dual wield is, while they tend to attack with only one blade, it's reflexive to try to block with both blades. Unless you've been trained and practiced using two blades at once, I'm going to predict that you use the blade in your dominant hand about 80% of the time and blade in the other hand is just kind of there and used only when you remember it. It's just the way your brain works, to use the hand it's used to doing things with most of the time.

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I really don't intend on doing any "hardcore" dueling as my opponents will be my teen boys, but they will both have 36" single blades, so I at least wanna gets some basics.

You say that now.... I'm afraid you're going to discover that your intention of not doing "hardcore" dueling may not be your boys' intention. Although, ironically, it's actually unintentional.

In my experience, here's what tends to happen: You'll all start out fairly slow, not hitting very hard at all. At some point, someone will realize that if they just go a little faster, they'll be able to "win" the duel. It's usually not even a conscious decision. It just happens. Then someone else will go a little faster than that to defend. And then faster to get past that defense. And so on. The only real problem with this is that, while speed does not necessarily equate to power, speed does equate to how much getting hit hurts. I recommend arnica cream for the bruises.

A couple more things for now:
1) Get protective gear. This should NEVER be optional. No matter what rules you may set how fast you're going to go or for body parts being off limits, no strikes to the head, groin, etc., accidents will still happen. At a very bare minimum I recommend the following: Protective cup, because your sons may want kids of their own some day; gloves, lacrosse gloves are usually recommended, but even the work gloves with the raised protective rubber on the fingers is better than nothing, and I can almost guarantee that if you try it without gloves once, you won't try it twice, especially if you're outside and the weather is cool (below 50F); eye protection, even if it's just safety glasses/googles from the hardware store. From experience I've mistimed a deflection and literally walked into poking myself in the eye with my opponent's blade. If the weather is cool outside, really anything below 60F, I very strongly suggest pants and long sleeves, no matter how hot you may get while you're dueling. Because getting hit on bare skin, especially the colder it gets, even at half speed, stings. And anything faster than that is going to leave a mark (this too I know from experience. A lot of experience.).

2) I want to be absolutely clear on this: I am NOT saying, in any way, shape, or form, that what you want to do is wrong in any way. What your character does is completely up to you, including saber blade length. I'm more directing this to what you can expect dueling with your boys, because I'd rather you not end up getting hit a lot without being able to effectively hit back. Or at least you'll go into it with the expectation of getting hit a lot. And saber dueling with your kids is absolutely a ton of fun. Unless you're dueling with your boys in character, I actually recommend getting 32" blades. You'll still have a shorter reach, but significantly less so, and I've found that 32" blades work just fine on even the smaller Initiate/Apprentice hilts.

Let us know how it goes after your first duel, I'm curious to know the results. Cheesy
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Galef
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Light side preferred, Dark side accepted


« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2020, 12:44:03 PM »

Oh yeah, my youngest (13) will definitely try to "go faster" to win a duel. And even at 13 he is almost my height so he'll have some weight behind him.
But at the end of the day, teaching him control and balance is one of my goals

Thanx for the advice.

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- Apprentice v4 staff in AB w/ 26" pointed Photon blades & QR coupler
- Sentinel LE v5 in VA w/ Lite Sound & Silver FoC - 32" Purple blade
- awaiting RGB Aeon v2 for my flat acrylic 'Darksaber' blade
Wishlist - Crimson Scorpion in GB w/ V4 sound & Red FoC

Oldest son - Fallen in Tri-Silver w/ v4 Sound - color discs or 34" Blue blade
Youngest son - Phantom Initiate v4 in Tri-Red - 28" Red blades
Wife - Dominix LE v3 in AB - 28" Blue blade

-

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