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Author Topic: So, I wrote a thing...  (Read 3646 times)
Illyiss
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Force Alignment: -491
Posts: 946


There are shadows darker still...


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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2019, 05:16:49 PM »

Eloquent as always, Illyiss.

As LSG pointed out, the dichotomy between the Jedi and Sith is one of the reasons that I felt that the Gray Jedi were an interesting synthesis, both as an example of such and the fact that (even despite that synthesis), the Gray also fall prey to some of the same problems that infect both Light- and Dark-Side ideologies.  Consequently, ALL of it--ESPECIALLY Illyiss' points--makes for excellent storytelling  Smiley

By-the-by, here's an example of the Gray Code (admittedly, there are many but this one is my favorite):

Flowing through all, there is balance
There is no peace without passion to create
There is no passion without peace to guide
Knowledge stagnates without the strength to act
Power blinds without the serenity to see
There is freedom in life
There is purpose in death
The Force is all things and I am the Force


Thanks!  That is a pretty good middle road code.

A big part of my process with this was coming up with something with real world applications.  When it comes to fictional story telling, having limiting, polarizing ideologies and philosophies makes for great story, because it sets up conflict, and the opportunity for growth and discovery arcs.  In the real world, the philosophies in the codes leads one into problems, and while it still allows for the potential for growth, it's a painful process with so much unnecessary conflict. 

Also, it's often difficult to get one's head out of the ideology one has adopted.  Especially if it appears to have the weight of so much apparent thought and testing behind it, even if all that is fictionally invented for story.  So I was wanting to come up with a way of thinking about the codes that allows a real world reflection upon them, to be able to put them into a kind of practice for personal progress and growth. 

Balancing the concepts and dualities are still things that need work on the personal level, and thought/meditation on how they apply to the self, but these, I feel, don't hold one back with seeming denials of important aspects of the self, or confusing statements that can far too easily be taken to limiting conclusions.  "There is no emotion", for instance, has led SO MANY to feel like they have to shut down emotion, to compartmentalize in unhealthy ways, and has stunted them in so many ways. 

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Darth Pandæmis

Peace is a lie...

Jedi Council of Ohio

Dominix LE V4 Tri-Cree FO, Sentinel LE V4 BR, Sentinel V4 BR, Dark Initiate LE V3 CG

Bob Loblaw
Knight Major
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Force Alignment: 102
Posts: 352



« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2019, 05:31:18 PM »

Thanks!  That is a pretty good middle road code.

A big part of my process with this was coming up with something with real world applications.  When it comes to fictional story telling, having limiting, polarizing ideologies and philosophies makes for great story, because it sets up conflict, and the opportunity for growth and discovery arcs.  In the real world, the philosophies in the codes leads one into problems, and while it still allows for the potential for growth, it's a painful process with so much unnecessary conflict. 

Also, it's often difficult to get one's head out of the ideology one has adopted.  Especially if it appears to have the weight of so much apparent thought and testing behind it, even if all that is fictionally invented for story.  So I was wanting to come up with a way of thinking about the codes that allows a real world reflection upon them, to be able to put them into a kind of practice for personal progress and growth. 

Balancing the concepts and dualities are still things that need work on the personal level, and thought/meditation on how they apply to the self, but these, I feel, don't hold one back with seeming denials of important aspects of the self, or confusing statements that can far too easily be taken to limiting conclusions.  "There is no emotion", for instance, has led SO MANY to feel like they have to shut down emotion, to compartmentalize in unhealthy ways, and has stunted them in so many ways. 



I would just like to say I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. I was going to start a topic on the Sith, the Jedi and dualism, but I'm glad I left it to more capable minds. That code is awesome Dutch! I really like that one. Where did you find it? Everyone in this thread gets points!
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Lord_S_Gray
Knight Commander
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Force Alignment: 428
Posts: 1903



« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2019, 10:40:33 PM »

Some additional thoughts on another read - just more dot points and thoughts than analysis, possible avenues for additional development, and likely unanswerable questions. As I noted after my first read there is much I agree/like about this, these are merely the main points that raise interesting conundrums mostly in practical application of such a combined philosophy.

>>>>

An angle worth exploring re emotions is their basis in biology - to deny them is to deny physical reality.

If a being is always, by biological necessity, in some state of emotional arousal, does this make it fundamentally impossible to reason without being under emotional influence.  Further

"Emotion informs an initial point, and prompts action, which other than in moments of immediate need, this is an opportunity for contemplation. We endeavor to take the time to consider several points; why do we feel the way we do, what implications does this have, what can we derive from our initial feelings, do we need to learn more about the thing, can we learn more about the subject, who else does it impact and how, how will our response effect ourselves as well as others, is a particular response even worth the effort required, or the continued investment of energy? These and several other questions can lead us to act with informed responses"

If we are always under some emotional state, how can there be such rational reflection.

Similar thought on passions -to the extent they result from biological imperatives does that make their validity and denial more prone to dissonance if denied/unfulfilled.  and does their basis in biology which I take as a 'brute fact' mean they cannot be subject to review or thought given their unyielding and unavoidable nature.  This challenges the ability to analyse said passions as per your point "Through intentional, rational pursuit of our self-analyzed passions, we become stronger, and more in tune with ourselves." or perhaps it means acceptance of such passions as fundamental so your point holds true?

"This too is a lesson, that being simply a creature of impassioned emotions, will bring no lasting fulfillment, as this is a life of reaction, and not intention. "  What are we if not, in essence, biochemical reactions to the environment in which we were formed and forged - can we be anything more than 'reactions' ourselves?

Perhaps a more refined definition of Power is instead of the ability to apply strength to a situation, the 'capacity to enact ones (conscious?) intention'. 

"Be especially aware of chasing darkness and oppression of others, for the oppression of others is also the oppression of the self. " This is stated as fact without much to back it up and casts it in a negative light (may just be the terminology) and seems to contradict "All passions are valid, though should be acted upon from a place of informed, reasoned response, not purely by emotional reaction. "  If one after reasoned analysis determined their passion is dominating others to achieve some goal (even be it simple sense of mastery) does that became valid?

"We must then come to understand that within an ACTIVE place of passion, we are not within a place of serenity. The two are not antithetical, but are, to an extent, exclusive of one another. "
Considering the psychological 'Flow' state (i.e. being engrossed in ones activity to the point once perception of time is altered)...would not an activity that results in a flow state be passion and potentially lead to a more serene experience....perhaps this is a matter of how one defines serenity - ie is a state of mental serenity possibly accompanied by physical exertion. Perhaps serenity is found in the achievement and pursuit of passions.

"So, in choosing to live intentionally, to pursue our passions with reason and rationale, we embrace the force, break our chains of oppression (within and without), so are freed by our own growth. Freedom comes from harmony within, the peace of confidence in our own actions and decisions, and the ability to reflect in harmony."  A good sentiment, I wonder what of those who through strained circumstances are unable to have any choice in how they live, how can they achieve such a state if at all when all their energy is dedicated to minute by minute survival?  does it means these codes can only apply to those with the time/resources to indulge their pursuit and analysis?

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Lord_S_Gray

Surik: "Kreia, what are you—are you a Jedi, a Sith?"
Kreia: "Does it matter? Of course it does, such titles allow you to break the galaxy into light and dark, categorize it. Perhaps I am neither, and I hold both as what they are, pieces of a whole."

Illyiss
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: -491
Posts: 946


There are shadows darker still...


WWW
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2019, 02:31:47 AM »

I'm gonna break this down and respond by point, to make is easier.  At least for me LOL



An angle worth exploring re emotions is their basis in biology - to deny them is to deny physical reality.

Indeed, which is the source of the dissonance doing so causes.  You are literally denying a part of yourself, an integral brain/body process, and leaving yourself incomplete, while seeking fulfillment.

.

If a being is always, by biological necessity, in some state of emotional arousal, does this make it fundamentally impossible to reason without being under emotional influence.  Further

If a being is always in some state of emotion, yes, it is impossible to reason outside of one.


"Emotion informs an initial point, and prompts action, which other than in moments of immediate need, this is an opportunity for contemplation. We endeavor to take the time to consider several points; why do we feel the way we do, what implications does this have, what can we derive from our initial feelings, do we need to learn more about the thing, can we learn more about the subject, who else does it impact and how, how will our response effect ourselves as well as others, is a particular response even worth the effort required, or the continued investment of energy? These and several other questions can lead us to act with informed responses"

If we are always under some emotional state, how can there be such rational reflection.

We can reason and be rational while we are in an emotional state, so long as we are not given fully to that emotional state.  It's really the source of the idea of "sleep on it, see how you feel about it after."  Your emotional perspective has changed, so the paths of reason you take will be potentially different.



Similar thought on passions -to the extent they result from biological imperatives does that make their validity and denial more prone to dissonance if denied/unfulfilled. 

Yes, though I beilieve the pursuit of fulfilling the passion is the fulfillment.  Sort of the journey is the destination sort of thing.  Failure is never what we hope for, but to not try is the true source of dissonant failure.


 and does their basis in biology which I take as a 'brute fact' mean they cannot be subject to review or thought given their unyielding and unavoidable nature.  This challenges the ability to analyse said passions as per your point "Through intentional, rational pursuit of our self-analyzed passions, we become stronger, and more in tune with ourselves." or perhaps it means acceptance of such passions as fundamental so your point holds true?


I firmly hold that we are able to analyse our biological imperatives, and that further, the reasoning and analyzing of these is more to make certain that they are truly what we are passionate about, and how best to go about pursuing them, without having to deny others their autonomy.  By acting from reason, we do not waste energy chasing smoke, but actually advancing our passions.  We must, as you point out, accept them as a fundamental part of who we are, and the path to fulfillment in who we mean to be, which allows us to analyse how best to pursue them and bring ourselves fulfillment.


"This too is a lesson, that being simply a creature of impassioned emotions, will bring no lasting fulfillment, as this is a life of reaction, and not intention. "  What are we if not, in essence, biochemical reactions to the environment in which we were formed and forged - can we be anything more than 'reactions' ourselves?

We absolutely can, by pausing the initial urge to react, and contemplate other, if not all, possible responses, and choosing the one most useful to the situation, and further to advancing, or at least not hindering, the pursuit of our passions.


Perhaps a more refined definition of Power is instead of the ability to apply strength to a situation, the 'capacity to enact ones (conscious?) intention'. 

More refined, and more specifically useful, but as I said it, is the most inclusively true.  Not all power is strength applied with consideration and thought.  Strength applied in reaction is still power, just poorly managed power.


"Be especially aware of chasing darkness and oppression of others, for the oppression of others is also the oppression of the self. " This is stated as fact without much to back it up and casts it in a negative light (may just be the terminology) and seems to contradict "All passions are valid, though should be acted upon from a place of informed, reasoned response, not purely by emotional reaction. "  If one after reasoned analysis determined their passion is dominating others to achieve some goal (even be it simple sense of mastery) does that became valid?

It does not invalidate it, but cautions to be aware that by oppressing others, you are also oppressing the self.  If that is one's passion, it is valid as such, but will still be self oppressive, and build a constant cycle of the need to chase it further, while also holding back the self.  Many self harms are packaged in pretty wrappers, after all.


"We must then come to understand that within an ACTIVE place of passion, we are not within a place of serenity. The two are not antithetical, but are, to an extent, exclusive of one another. "
Considering the psychological 'Flow' state (i.e. being engrossed in ones activity to the point once perception of time is altered)...would not an activity that results in a flow state be passion and potentially lead to a more serene experience....perhaps this is a matter of how one defines serenity - ie is a state of mental serenity possibly accompanied by physical exertion. Perhaps serenity is found in the achievement and pursuit of passions.

I think you answered your own question there.  Within that transcendent state of "flow", we achieve a serene place of peace, balance, and tranquility, where we exist in that moment.  And that last is the key to understanding why we must leave the place of serenity to advance our goals; serenity only exists within the moment, and is only experienced by fully committing to be completely in that moment, not advancing beyond it.


"So, in choosing to live intentionally, to pursue our passions with reason and rationale, we embrace the force, break our chains of oppression (within and without), so are freed by our own growth. Freedom comes from harmony within, the peace of confidence in our own actions and decisions, and the ability to reflect in harmony."  A good sentiment, I wonder what of those who through strained circumstances are unable to have any choice in how they live, how can they achieve such a state if at all when all their energy is dedicated to minute by minute survival?  does it means these codes can only apply to those with the time/resources to indulge their pursuit and analysis?


The path to fulfillment is a road of entitlement, though the first passion within us all, is the passion to survive.  By analyzing that one is not in a place to pursue beyond that, the focus shifts to pursuing the passion to survive, and seeking to advance the ability to pursue other passions.  And so, in striving to achieve passions in a well reasoned, accepting manner, fulfillment comes, even from within adversity of condition.

Consider if you will, the number of people who live harmonious, fulfilling lives at the level of abject poverty and hardship that so many around the world do (at least from the entitled Western/American perspectives).  These people accept their lives, and strive to accomplish what they can, with pragmatism and enthusiasm.  I would possibly consider that living without knowing excess might make it easier to find peace and fulfillment in simpler passions.

Think of the celebration that takes place in Zion within the Matrix trilogy.  Every one of those individuals lives a hard, edge of survival life.  Perhaps not as bad as some in history have, but they still live with passion, and feel fulfillment in the life they lead, and are able to pour out passion by the ton when the opportunity arises, and do so without reservation, and take strength from so doing.
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Darth Pandæmis

Peace is a lie...

Jedi Council of Ohio

Dominix LE V4 Tri-Cree FO, Sentinel LE V4 BR, Sentinel V4 BR, Dark Initiate LE V3 CG

Lord_S_Gray
Knight Commander
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Force Alignment: 428
Posts: 1903



« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2019, 04:26:52 AM »

Thanks for some clarification, and for putting your ideas out there in the first place, I think some queries were more around the terminology you use - the words 'emotion' and 'passion' can have different nuances in different situations (and indeed cross culturally), which in itself could be an interesting exploration...but interpretation is always subjective so no fault on either side just reality. 

One thought and I think its more a divide on POV is "I firmly hold that we are able to analyse our biological imperatives" - I don't think you can observe and analyse a system from within the system, you can try to, but being within the system means you're never free of its influence however subtle making all analysis distorted....but then what being isn't in a 'system' of some kind. But that is a different topic altogether, but skews how I read you ideas, again a matter of how different POV can change interpretation of the same text beyond what an author interned.

Anyway always interesting to see and consider new points of view and delving of into the lore in new ways, and as an attempt at reconciling the two codes was very well done, would be interesting to see a further elaboration integrating the Gray code Dutchman offered up.
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Lord_S_Gray

Surik: "Kreia, what are you—are you a Jedi, a Sith?"
Kreia: "Does it matter? Of course it does, such titles allow you to break the galaxy into light and dark, categorize it. Perhaps I am neither, and I hold both as what they are, pieces of a whole."

Illyiss
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: -491
Posts: 946


There are shadows darker still...


WWW
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2019, 04:38:44 AM »

Thanks for some clarification, and for putting your ideas out there in the first place, I think some queries were more around the terminology you use - the words 'emotion' and 'passion' can have different nuances in different situations (and indeed cross culturally), which in itself could be an interesting exploration...but interpretation is always subjective so no fault on either side just reality. 

One thought and I think its more a divide on POV is "I firmly hold that we are able to analyse our biological imperatives" - I don't think you can observe and analyse a system from within the system, you can try to, but being within the system means you're never free of its influence however subtle making all analysis distorted....but then what being isn't in a 'system' of some kind. But that is a different topic altogether, but skews how I read you ideas, again a matter of how different POV can change interpretation of the same text beyond what an author interned.

Anyway always interesting to see and consider new points of view and delving of into the lore in new ways, and as an attempt at reconciling the two codes was very well done, would be interesting to see a further elaboration integrating the Gray code Dutchman offered up.

Absolutely.  And thank you for the encouragement.  As for the analyzing from within, I think we can do it, but I agree, there will always be a bias, as we are within it.  Also, thinking more on what you've said here, I think I mean more that we can analyze it in the way that we can understand and be aware of it, and choose how we act in relation to it.  We may not ever fully understand the source complexities of why we have a particular passion, but we can understand what it is, what does and doesn't feel right in pursuit of it, and gauge how best to tread that path.  After all, our understanding of anything is limited by our perspectives. Sure, we can try and acquire more points of perspective, but we can never truly experience them all, and as you said, never from truly without, on a personal experience level.

Thank you for sharing your perspectives, thoughts and insights.  I quite enjoy this kind of discussion, and your insights are provoking.  As for the other code, I may, at some point.  I will have to think on the code itself.  This writing came after nearly two years of contemplation, introspection, and life experiences which I've tried to filter through these lenses. 
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Darth Pandæmis

Peace is a lie...

Jedi Council of Ohio

Dominix LE V4 Tri-Cree FO, Sentinel LE V4 BR, Sentinel V4 BR, Dark Initiate LE V3 CG

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