Thoughts on TLJ

[PsychoSith]

Oh Force, love that. Doesn't convince me it's the real Luke but that's truly a nicer thought than what others have said. For me Luke's real, humanizing moment was hanging from Cloud City, his hand cut off, his father revealed to be a monster, and he is all alone, frightened and begging for help. The other would have to be Luke writhing under Sidious and his Force Lightning. Those two moments have always reminded Luke isn't all powerful even half the time. But your thoughts are well thought out and not condescending or deflections. Sorry I'm just so happy there's sane people who don't bash EU Luke just for the sake of bashing him. I think they could've done better with a 'given up' Luke though. I've written a few fanfics where Luke does give up at some point, but I think why people like myself really don't like Luke's portrayal in TLJ is because of him attempting to kill Ben in his SLEEP! That really broke everything for lots of people, and the main reason I reject him as being my Luke Skywalker. There's a huge difference between Luke attacking Darth Vader for threatening his sister, and Luke freaking out because his nephew just might be a bit evil or is being manipulated by Goll- I mean Snoke.
I think that's the main and probably only reason for a lot of people that this portrayal is just downright hurtful and disrespectful to what Luke went through with other Dark Siders, especially when Luke was able to redeem a man like Vader, but had no thought of hope to save his nephew from the same evil.

I'm so sorry for the ramble!

It's fine! I'm Italian, I love the ramble! And yeah, I see how the killing Ben in his sleep could be considered jumping the shark...over a car. However, what saved it in my eyes was the last second where he realized what he was doing. He realized he let fear control him, that he made the same mistake of his father, and the Jedi Order he served. And here's a little Hamill appreciation to drive my point:



Took that screenshot from the exact moment Luke realized what he was actually doing. Props to Mark here, but looks at his eyes. He was DESTROYED by the realization of the depravity of his actions. This was arguably what made him make the decision to forsake his friends. He lost himself here, and realized it. He no longer felt like he even was Luke Skywalker. That right there is what did that scene in for me. Again mad props to Mark Hamill and his incredible acting!

[ElvenSkywalker83]

It's fine! I'm Italian, I love the ramble! And yeah, I see how the killing Ben in his sleep could be considered jumping the shark...over a car. However, what saved it in my eyes was the last second where he realized what he was doing. He realized he let fear control him, that he made the same mistake of his father, and the Jedi Order he served. And here's a little Hamill appreciation to drive my point:



Took that screenshot from the exact moment Luke realized what he was actually doing. Props to Mark here, but looks at his eyes. He was DESTROYED by the realization of the depravity of his actions. This was arguably what made him make the decision to forsake his friends. He lost himself here, and realized it. He no longer felt like he even was Luke Skywalker. That right there is what did that scene in for me. Again mad props to Mark Hamill and his incredible acting!

Mark Hamill is DEFINITELY one of the best actors ever, in the moment I too could understand and feel that brokenness, I have a lot of empathy towards Luke and felt like crying too during that gut wrenching moment. And I tell you what, I spent months trying to love TLJ, I wanted to love it as much as I love all six movies that came before it. But alas, I still can't buy Luke's instincts telling him to murder a child,  much less, the child of his sister and best friend. He was supposed to be better than Anakin, above most atrocities, especially killing kids. (Darn you Anakin) but I can understand your logical thinking! Anyways, I had had other thoughts for why Luke was hiding or had given up. In fact I was just waiting for him to tell Rey that Kylo Ren killed his son, or killed Mara in the assault on the Temple. I can get Luke grieving for a dead family because of his inaction to help Ben Solo, but what happened is still a far cry from what I believe Luke is.
XD I cope by believing Luke Skywalker in TLJ was actually a Clone running the Temple for Original Luke, got a little saber happy and sent Ben Solo to the dark side. And the real Luke has been off in the Unknown Regions exploring it with a couple of Jedi and a Thrawn clone! Yes, my coping is strange.

[PsychoSith]

Mark Hamill is DEFINITELY one of the best actors ever, in the moment I too could understand and feel that brokenness, I have a lot of empathy towards Luke and felt like crying too during that gut wrenching moment. And I tell you what, I spent months trying to love TLJ, I wanted to love it as much as I love all six movies that came before it. But alas, I still can't buy Luke's instincts telling him to murder a child,  much less, the child of his sister and best friend. He was supposed to be better than Anakin, above most atrocities, especially killing kids. (Darn you Anakin) but I can understand your logical thinking! Anyways, I had had other thoughts for why Luke was hiding or had given up. In fact I was just waiting for him to tell Rey that Kylo Ren killed his son, or killed Mara in the assault on the Temple. I can get Luke grieving for a dead family because of his inaction to help Ben Solo, but what happened is still a far cry from what I believe Luke is.
XD I cope by believing Luke Skywalker in TLJ was actually a Clone running the Temple for Original Luke, got a little saber happy and sent Ben Solo to the dark side. And the real Luke has been off in the Unknown Regions exploring it with a couple of Jedi and a Thrawn clone! Yes, my coping is strange.

I'll concede that. Characterization here wasn't perfect, felt it was good enough to be justified though.

[ElvenSkywalker83]

I'll concede that. Characterization here wasn't perfect, felt it was good enough to be justified though.

Indeed it is. I'm glad we got to talk about this and I got to see stuff from a different point of view! Usually people are less than polite. Thank you for the civilized conversation!

[Darth Tepes]

Again that goes into the "Like the idea not the execution".   Luke abandoning the Fight is one thing...abandoning his family is another.  That is where the crux of the dislike of "Jake Skywalker" comes from.  I think a better way to have shown all this would have been to have been for Han and Leia to have already passed.  Luke abandoning everything would have felt more natural to me in that instance, same for Rey having to convince him.  I might just upload my version of TFA at some point...

[PsychoSith]

Indeed it is. I'm glad we got to talk about this and I got to see stuff from a different point of view! Usually people are less than polite. Thank you for the civilized conversation!

Not a problem! No sense in getting angry at people over a movie - besides i enjoy debates / discourse. 

Again that goes into the "Like the idea not the execution".   Luke abandoning the Fight is one thing...abandoning his family is another.  That is where the crux of the dislike of "Jake Skywalker" comes from.  I think a better way to have shown all this would have been to have been for Han and Leia to have already passed.  Luke abandoning everything would have felt more natural to me in that instance, same for Rey having to convince him.  I might just upload my version of TFA at some point...

I get that, the execution of the movie in general is quite divisive, sadly.

[Darth Tepes]

Here is another aspect that can be controversial.  As much flak as the fandom gave Lucas for some of his ideas.... he still got a pass for them.  Because for the majority of Us...we didn't feel he owed us anything.  This was his world...his ideas.  He owned them in everyway one could own something like this.  His responsibility, and we all knew and agreed with this, was to his vision.  Not once during discussions on the Prequels or Special Editions (for me at least) did it not end with "Well, its his story."  But Disney does not and will not get the same slack.  Unlike Uncle George, Their responsibility IS to the fans.  They needed to show us they respected this golden franchise and the fandom that came along with it.  Now I don't mean they have to pay heed to every little fan theory or fan fic.  But get out of their own head and bubbles and think "What will be a good story and not divide the fandom."  Disney thought they could just slap Star Wars on something it would sell...they learned the hard way that isn't true. 

[PsychoSith]

Here is another aspect that can be controversial.  As much flak as the fandom gave Lucas for some of his ideas.... he still got a pass for them.  Because for the majority of Us...we didn't feel he owed us anything.  This was his world...his ideas.  He owned them in everyway one could own something like this.  His responsibility, and we all knew and agreed with this, was to his vision.  Not once during discussions on the Prequels or Special Editions (for me at least) did it not end with "Well, its his story."  But Disney does not and will not get the same slack.  Unlike Uncle George, Their responsibility IS to the fans.  They needed to show us they respected this golden franchise and the fandom that came along with it.  Now I don't mean they have to pay heed to every little fan theory or fan fic.  But get out of their own head and bubbles and think "What will be a good story and not divide the fandom."  Disney thought they could just slap Star Wars on something it would sell...they learned the hard way that isn't true. 

And that boils down to a difference in what fans want. For me, Lucas created a great universe but got very carried away. True, it was his baby, but the more got released i felt my interest starting to wane. With Disney at the helm, I feel like they have a focus on what they want to achieve with the franchise beyond CGI meandering so my interest rose substantially when TFA came out, and I'm still enjoying the new stuff. I just wish people didnt get so overly nasty with the new stuff. I can understand not liking it - i can even understand it impacting your enjoyment of the series (what happened to me the first few seasons of TCW!) But it irks me when the rage and attacking other fans start flying. Star Wars should be a series for everyone but on occasion it feels like some fans feel like it belongs exclusively to them. Not meanin to rant I've just got in some ugly bouts for saying stuff like "I liked this scene" or "I enjoy this character"

[Darth Tepes]

And that boils down to a difference in what fans want. For me, Lucas created a great universe but got very carried away. True, it was his baby, but the more got released i felt my interest starting to wane. With Disney at the helm, I feel like they have a focus on what they want to achieve with the franchise beyond CGI meandering so my interest rose substantially when TFA came out, and I'm still enjoying the new stuff. I just wish people didnt get so overly nasty with the new stuff. I can understand not liking it - i can even understand it impacting your enjoyment of the series (what happened to me the first few seasons of TCW!) But it irks me when the rage and attacking other fans start flying. Star Wars should be a series for everyone but on occasion it feels like some fans feel like it belongs exclusively to them. Not meanin to rant I've just got in some ugly bouts for saying stuff like "I liked this scene" or "I enjoy this character"

Fans attacking fans is not something I condone.  I think Logos and I are two of the biggest opponents of Disney's direction...but we've never attacked anyone for their position.  We don't even attack the actors.  But the Powers that Be at Disney and Lucasfilm...especially KK and RJ.  That is also one the biggest reasons many of us are so angry....the people in charge of Lucasfilm...attacked the fans.  To be labeled a racist, misogynist, basement dwelling man-baby because I don't like their movie doesn't lead to me respecting them. As well they seemed to try everything they could to push old fans out...     We also differ on them having a direction...by all accounts I don't think they had anything more than a passing idea and now are trying to play damaged control.

[PsychoSith]

Fans attacking fans is not something I condone.  I think Logos and I are two of the biggest opponents of Disney's direction...but we've never attacked anyone for their position.  We don't even attack the actors.  But the Powers that Be at Disney and Lucasfilm...especially KK and RJ.  That is also one the biggest reasons many of us are so angry....the people in charge of Lucasfilm...attacked the fans.  To be labeled a racist, misogynist, basement dwelling man-baby because I don't like their movie doesn't lead to me respecting them. As well they seemed to try everything they could to push old fans out...     We also differ on them having a direction...by all accounts I don't think they had anything more than a passing idea and now are trying to play damaged control.

It's why I pretty much keep my SW discussions here at the forum, people are generally pretty decent here and even the angriest of us are pretty respectful. I remember the last time I spoke of TLJ on reddit....that was not pretty.

[TheDutchman]

Fans attacking fans is not something I condone.  I think Logos and I are two of the biggest opponents of Disney's direction...but we've never attacked anyone for their position.  We don't even attack the actors.  But the Powers that Be at Disney and Lucasfilm...especially KK and RJ.  That is also one the biggest reasons many of us are so angry....the people in charge of Lucasfilm...attacked the fans.  To be labeled a racist, misogynist, basement dwelling man-baby because I don't like their movie doesn't lead to me respecting them. As well they seemed to try everything they could to push old fans out...     We also differ on them having a direction...by all accounts I don't think they had anything more than a passing idea and now are trying to play damaged control.

THIS SO MUCH^^

And I have to say: that almost EVERYONE here in the Forums have been NOTHING if not congenial, helpful, and pleasant.  Point of fact: I may disagree with much of PS's points on TLJ BUT I admit that whenever he gives his opinion it is always accompanied with an excellent reason/qualifier as to why I shouldn't outright dismiss many of the decisions done in TLJ story (indeed, it is because of PS that I've made certain concessions regarding some of the characterization surrounding the characters; THAT is called good debating).  Furthermore, we can both have a polite, even cordial disagreement concerning our diametrically opposite views but still respect one another, especially given our shared enthusiasm for SW 

As for Rian Johnson...I do not consider him to be a good writer/director nor does he truly appreciate SW and the attendant fandom surrounding it (anyone who succumbs to such verbal attacks and juvenile actions just because people disagree and have some valid arguments really needs to grow thicker skin and take a LONG hard reflective look at themselves).

Again: I REALLY like this thread 

[PsychoSith]

So I re-watched the movie last night since it had been a hot minute and I've conjured up a few more positive/negative anecdotes. Ill start with the negatives like last time.

1) Finn. I like Finn as a character in these movies overall but his dialogue struck me as even more whiny in this viewing. Kinda gave me some ANH Luke vibes. Seems like everytime he talks hes complaining about something.

2) Hux, again. Everytime I watch this movie, much as I enjoy it, it always hurts to see this potentially really cool character used a ragdoll.

3) The Caretakers. I feel like they were originally supposed to be more important and do something other than scream at Rey twice.

Things I liked this time around:

1) Luke's Death. Never caught this before, but Luke's death was slightly foreshadowed. During the first scene where Rey and Kylo are linked Kylo comments that Rey cant be doing this, as the effort would kill her. Interesting, since she is an unnaturally strong force-user in her prime and actively training. Seeing as that would kill her, I imagine the strain for a Doppelganger technique on a 70 year old out of practice Jedi would be similarly lethal.

2) Kylo's Strength. Kylo gets a bad rep for his outbursts, but TLJ does show his prowess in a subtle way. During the Praetorian fight, Rey and Kylo fight 3 and 5 of the Praetorian Guard, respectively. Where that doesnt sound like a large difference, its how they fight them that shows Kylo's power. Rey fights her three one after the other, staggered so she's rarely dealing with more than one opponent and sustains light injury during her struggle. By comparison Kylo fights his first three at the same time, then the next two simultaneously again, and ultimately receives no injuries. A nice contrast considering a common complaint is that of why Rey could hold her own against Kylo, who has much more training.

3) Rey and Kylo's Connection. This was already a treat for KotoR fans, by re-introducing Force Bonds. In the movie Snoke claims to have bridged the minds of Kylo and Rey, however, we still get one last scene where their minds bridge (while Rey enters the Falcon at the end of the movie), despite this being quite awhile after Snoke's death. I see three possibilities with this. ONE: similair to KotoR, Force Bonds are semi-permanent, which will be very interesting for ep9. TWO: Snoke is alive, not sure how I feel about this one, I don't really see it being true but who knows? THREE: Snoke didnt make the Bond, which lets face it, leaves one very tantalizing option. Epi9 would be very interesting if the good ol' Papa was the one to initiate that.

Neither positive or negative things just anecdotes:

-We only see Phasma go into a fireball, but nothing following, given her reputation for surviving at all costs I have to wonder.
-Rey in the darkside cave sees herself in a vision where she hoped to see her parents. Similar to Luke's vision on Dagobah, which served to foreshadow that Luke's father was Vader. It is again canon that Palpatine influenced the force to create Anakin, so perhaps this could be the force expressing that she was born of the force itself, hinting at a relation to Palpatine,who might have done something similar with Rey, which is obviously a popular theory at the moment.
-I know its been mentioned before but I love Yoda's foreshadowing that Rey took the texts. "That place did not contain anything the girl Rey did not already possess." What a little savage.
-Regarding our earlier conversation with Luke, I drew some mental parallels this viewing with Darth Caedus of the EU, who was convinced what he was doing would prevent suffering and "save the galaxy", which was remarkably close to Luke's justification of "in a moment of hubris I thought I could stop it". Interesting Skywalker family trait I think, to be momentarily overcome by fear leading to bad decisions.

[ElvenSkywalker83]

Nice! For me all the characters were OOC in TLJ, Finn especially disappointed me. I recently watched a YouTube video by Thor Skywalker talking about Finn and how he could have been the most dynamic character of all these new characters. Personally, while Finn used to be a favorite of mine it always struck me odd that a little boy taken from his family (as he says in TFA to Rey) and conditioned and brainwashed to be a soldier, would have a sense of humor, had no trouble leaving the FO and would open fire on his former allies even though on his first mission his free will was apparently triggered when he saw a fellow trooper get killed, by Poe no less XD. He would have been a cooler character if his arc was learning to be human again, learning to love, trust, accept others. And Rey's arc could have been almost the same. These two characters lived alone, forgotten, unappreciated by the galaxy. It would have been a more beautiful friendship if they had been learning to entrust their lives to eachother instead of immediately clicking. Finn in TLJ was definitely an underwhelming character, although I did start to cry when he obviously had plans to blow up the battering ram to save the Resistance and sacrifice himself, proving he was a hero (darn you Rose! She's obviously an FO spy I know it!). But yeah I agree, Finn deserved a better character arc, especially since most fans keep crying out for the POV of a stormtrooper, Finn would've been a near perfect candidate.

As for Rey and Kylo's Force Bond, bonds were introduced in TESB when Vader and Luke's dormant bond was awakened via the parental reveal. There was also a deleted scene in ROTJ where Vader calls out to Luke in hopes of seducing him to his side, and Luke hears him despite being lightyears away. All because of this I had hope Rey and Kylo were somehow related by blood. Because it has already been established Rey is superior to Kylo Ren (or Kylo Ren never fully committed to beating the crap out of her) I think a familial dynamic would have been super cool and climatic. Personally I've always thought that Rey was a toddler at the Jedi school when Ben went crazy, but he didn't want to kill his sister so he rearranged her memories and left her on Jakku for a secured apprentice, he could have had plans to go to Jakku again to pick her up, tell her he was her long lost brother and began indoctrinating innocent, naive and needy Rey with the ways of the Dark Side. It would explain why Kylo got so angry upon hearing about the droid and Finn picking up 'the girl' during their escape. Meanwhile Han and Leia would have thought their daughter was dead, explaining why they never mention her because it's just too painful.

Still hate Luke's death, it was too early. Yes I am stubborn.  Nice review!