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Author Topic: Why we can't have Gray Jedi - a YouTuber's perspective  (Read 4852 times)
Karmack
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« on: October 18, 2019, 05:23:54 PM »

This is from a site called Spacedock, which is usually more about the hardware, but I thought this was a very insightful and interesting look at the nature of "Gray Jedi" and whether they can even really work in Canon.

Enjoy and feel free to discuss, but keep is civil!   Many of us consider ourselves to be "Gray" in one way or another.   This is not an attack or refutation of anyone's ideas or persona.   Just a very interesting look at what is probably going on in Canon and why we likely won't get any "Gray" Jedi characters in the sense of them being amoral.

Enjoy!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4azz0ujlY4M&amp;list=WL&amp;index=38&amp;t=0s" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4azz0ujlY4M&amp;list=WL&amp;index=38&amp;t=0s</a>
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StoryDtechtive
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2020, 01:38:05 AM »

It’s a theory that works, actually...and not entirely different than my own. In fact, a couple of things here have given me food for thought. Because there’s always a struggle between the light and dark...in fiction and reality. And that’s essentially what the force in Star Wars represents.

I’m not entirely sure that doesn’t mean you can never have grey Jedi. But like this guy states, the struggle is definitely more interesting. To find that balance within an individual force wielder may be a possibility, but what exactly does that mean? Do they seek to teach others and bring about balance? Yes, but that balance wouldn't last forever. Much like after Vader killed the Emperor, I believe balance is only a temporary state.

Why? Because once you build a group, or society, no matter how good it may seem for a time, the nature of life—or the force—is going to divide and subdivide as every culture does. And therefore, the balance will always be in flux. The Sith ruled for a while and became more dominant, Luke brought about a greater influx of the light side for a time, and great Jedi could only hope to bring about balance fore a time because force users will always tip that balance in favor of their personal nature and desires for control, or freedom...and what that means to the next individual and their ability to lead, or mislead others.
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2020, 07:50:01 PM »

Pablo Hidalgo...the guy who has the final say on who and what is Canon...has said there isn't such thing as a "Grey" Jedi.  To paraphrase...You are Jedi, Sith or Grey.  It makes sense when you think about it.  Jedi and Sith are both Religions in that they have specific doctrines they follow.  Of course some followers deviate but not to the extant they turn their back.  Qui-Gon defied the council more than once but still believed in the Jedi Code...he just didn't always agree on the councils interpretation of it.  Then you have Ahsoka and Assajj.  Both left their "Religions" (Jedi and Sith) because they could no longer reconcile their own morality with that of the respective dogma.  IMO Ahsoka and Assajj are the wo truest examples of "Grey".
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2020, 08:55:23 PM »

"What does God want with a starship?"

Oh wait, wrong setting.

What does the Force want with good and evil? Why would it even comprehend things in that framework? 
Wouldn't compassion and empathy vs. survival of the fittest make more sense?
Or love vs. hate?
Or red vs. blue?

And why balance?  Why does it care that there's too much blue, time to add some more red?  The actual universe doesn't care if there's more water on one side than the other. It's not taking steps to move it back, either.

From a storytelling standpoint, setting up conflict is the goal.  Blue vs. Red is easy.  Making a Blue person struggle with choices that risk moving them to Red, is juicier, more complex material.  Blue people turning Red is the second oldest story which is power corrupts.  Getting Red to turn back is harder still, if nothing else because the weight of your crimes makes it hard to get the opportunity to do good again. You're either in jail, still wanted, or nobody will trust you. It's probably why the bad guy usually dies after their heel turn.


As for Gray within Star Wars' tendency toward absolutist moralism (you gotta be all good or you're gonna corrupt and go all evil), let's ignore part of the video for a second.  You are Gray.  True neutral.  I come up to you to ask for help saving some orphans. 

You say no.

Why?  First, you'd be choosing blue over red.  Second, each blue-ish act would lead to more blue.  Third, only an object at rest is likely to remain at rest. Or neutral.  You cannot help me and remain as you are.

Same thing I asked you to help me burn down an orphanage.

So you are stuck, not acting in order to keep your balance.

But here's the kicker.  Somebody's going to realize that evil wins when good stands by and does nothing.  Which means every time I burn down an orphanage and you had the opportunity to stop me, you are making red stronger.  You just took a side.

There is nothing truly at rest in our universe. Only in relation to something else. The Grey can only be that, or appear to be that for a limited time, before the universe, which is moving around them will dispel that illusion.
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2020, 11:28:34 PM »

These are my thoughts about the subject:

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=42837.msg732701#msg732701

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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2020, 01:41:21 AM »

Same thing I asked you to help me burn down an orphanage.

So you are stuck, not acting in order to keep your balance.

But here's the kicker.  Somebody's going to realize that evil wins when good stands by and does nothing.  Which means every time I burn down an orphanage and you had the opportunity to stop me, you are making red stronger.  You just took a side.

When I read that I immediately thought of "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". 

In my opinion, being a "Grey Jedi" is about as close to being atheist or agnostic as a force wielder can get in the SW universe.  If the Jedi and Sith are religions then a "Grey Jedi" is someone who just doesn't follow the order of the Jedi or Sith.  That doesn't mean they cannot choose a side or perform good or bad acts when the time or need arrises; it just means they don't follow the principals or dogma of those "religions".  To me, a Grey Jedi is entirely possible.
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2020, 07:23:04 PM »

When I read that I immediately thought of "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice".  

In my opinion, being a "Grey Jedi" is about as close to being atheist or agnostic as a force wielder can get in the SW universe.  If the Jedi and Sith are religions then a "Grey Jedi" is someone who just doesn't follow the order of the Jedi or Sith.  That doesn't mean they cannot choose a side or perform good or bad acts when the time or need arrises; it just means they don't follow the principals or dogma of those "religions".  To me, a Grey Jedi is entirely possible.

This is pretty close to my thinking. Although I see the grey as more elevated, not so much neutral. You would have to be a step above a Jedi Master—or an enlightened master at the very least to maintain that balance. And what does balance mean anywaY?

The Jedi are attempting emotional detachment in hopes of allowing logic and intuition to rule their decisions. Being guided by the force instead of emotional decisions based on angst, or personal feelings. But while striving for separation from emotion, they are a fairly emotional lot if you watch their expressions and even a lot of their decisions are swayed by the passion of others...even one another at times. So there’s always a struggle, through which they’ve allowed themselves to become dupes of the Republic and do their bidding—so long as it comes under the heading of “Keeping the peace.” But where’s the logic or force intuition when these orders are handed out?

The Sith do the opposite and allow emotion to rule. They feel emotion is the core of their strength. However, they’ve turned to anger and greed, possibly the easiest path when seeking to adrenaline their emotions. Anger doesn’t always lead to wise decision making. In fact, they kill one another in their quest for power because there’s really only one throne and to question it, or covet it, or fail it on any level means you aren’t to be trusted and death is usually the end result. So the dragon is always sprouting new heads and cutting them off, feeding on itself in an ongoing attempt to find THE most powerful ruler of the universe.

A grey, in my opinion, would see the strengths and fallacies of both. It would likely be a very small number of force wielders because both Sith and Jedi would see them as a potential threat to their order...probably enemies looking to corrupt, or taint them because they dabble with their enemy’s philosophy. The story possibilities would be interesting because they would find themselves in the middle of the war while striving to bring about balance and convince force users to join them. I do not believe they would be like “Dr. Manhattan” and feel above it all, not get involved. Because if they truly were guided by the force—and the force strives for balance—they would seek to abolish the threat which sought to destroy the galaxy and keeps it out of balance. Which would have them at times standing against the stupidity of both sides.

At least that’s what I would do.
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