Thoughts on The Rise of Skywalker - SPOILERS

[Cyclops942]

^ This!! We all respect different opinions, and everybody has the right to think different of the movies.
Like I said, it's my opinion, and you can agree or disagree. I'm fine with that - as long as it's a discussion with objective arguments. However, I do not accept things like "Well, it's the PT/ST" or "The PT has Jar Jar" or such things.

I don’t pitch the whole Prequel Trilogy because of Jar-Jar, but man... that character was REALLY annoying!

[Racona Nova]

I know, I didn't mean to say you did that But I've read other comments that were mostly based around him making the trilogy appear ridiculous just because of his appearance, which I found a bit too much. He was a part of it - often a funny, sometimes an annoying part.

But we forget one thing: he might've been annoying in Ep I, but he then played a pivotal role in Ep II, more or less leading the galaxy into war with his speech in the Senate regarding Palpatine giving emergency powers...that wasn't funny, nor annyoing, it was a critical part of the story determining the future of the Republic and the whole galaxy.

[Darth Logos]

^ This!! We all respect different opinions, and everybody has the right to think different of the movies. I wrote that in another thread: It's Star Wars, it doesn't necessarily need to fit our logic. It's science-fiction, which normally follows its own logic. Personally, I like how they did the new movies. Yes, there are parts that could have been done better, and yes, much of its potential went unappreciated, but bashing the whole trilogy just for some mistakes that have been made? Or because it shows something that hasn't been explained in detail before? That's a bit over the top (actually, that's what I think about the bashing of the PT as well). There were many things in the OT that weren't explained either! Example: the use of the Force. Luke Force Pulls his saber into his hand in that Wampa cave in Ep IV. No one ever  explained where and when he learned that. Was it through Obi-Wan's spirit? His papers on Tatooine? Does anyone critizise that? No. So why do we do that with the PT and ST?

Like I said, it's my opinion, and you can agree or disagree. I'm fine with that - as long as it's a discussion with objective arguments. However, I do not accept things like "Well, it's the PT/ST" or "The PT has Jar Jar" or such things.

And we must not forget: although we all like Star Wars (be it old canon, new canon, the EU), and we all have our own ideas how to make this or that - those who actually write, direct, act, may have different ideas and different way to get that on screen, paper or into games. We have to accept that. But to abandon the whole universe just because it doesn't match our own imagination of the Star Wars world...I think that's the wrong way.

My 2c on this...over and out and MTFBY

I'm sorry, even with Jar Jar, the prequels were better.

Observe

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=11019.msg746062#msg746062

[PsychoSith]

I'm sorry, even with Jar Jar, the prequels were better.

Observe

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=11019.msg746062#msg746062

Hard disagree there, personally. I like every episodic film on some level except II. It was my "TLJ" so to speak. But I also recognize a lot of people are just now beginning to appreciate the prequels more, which is fine; I'm glad they're enjoying something I personally struggle to.

[Darth Logos]

Hard disagree there, personally. I like every episodic film on some level except II. It was my "TLJ" so to speak. But I also recognize a lot of people are just now beginning to appreciate the prequels more, which is fine; I'm glad they're enjoying something I personally struggle to.

There's a reason for this trend.

Pop Quiz:

What, in your own words, is the over plot of episodes II and VIII?

[Cyclops942]

I know, I didn't mean to say you did that But I've read other comments that were mostly based around him making the trilogy appear ridiculous just because of his appearance, which I found a bit too much. He was a part of it - often a funny, sometimes an annoying part.

But we forget one thing: he might've been annoying in Ep I, but he then played a pivotal role in Ep II, more or less leading the galaxy into war with his speech in the Senate regarding Palpatine giving emergency powers...that wasn't funny, nor annyoing, it was a critical part of the story determining the future of the Republic and the whole galaxy.

First, I didn’t mean to suggest that I felt that my opinion was being attacked.  In the words of Lady Jessica Atreides, you cut a loose garment, and I claimed it fit me perfectly.

Second, no matter how necessary his speech in the Senate was to the plot, I still find him, his speech patterns, and his behavior patterns to be incredibly annoying.  Lucas could easily have had a non-annoying character fill Jar-Jar’s place, simply by having the character speak Galactic Standard without that ***-awful “me-sa, you-sa, red-sa, blue-sa” nonsense, and making the voice a bit lower on the scale, instead of being that high-pitched, grating whine.  With those changes, I could easily have enjoyed the rest of the character.

[Taegin Roan]

Jumping back for a second to the "Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack" thing, I believe it was somewhere in the Jedi Apprentice series (though I may be wrong), it talks about how the Jedi should never initiate the fight. Never be the first to make the first move. That is for the opponent (Sith). As soon as your opponent tries to do something, you are free to defend yourself in any means necessary. This includes a strong offense. However, as a Jedi, you should never be the first to attack. In that Yoda vs. Red Guards scene, they clearly acted in aggression first, to which Yoda did not kill them, but took them out of the picture instantly so he could immediately face the greater threat without distraction.

[Darth Tepes]

First, I didn’t mean to suggest that I felt that my opinion was being attacked.  In the words of Lady Jessica Atreides, you cut a loose garment, and I claimed it fit me perfectly.

Second, no matter how necessary his speech in the Senate was to the plot, I still find him, his speech patterns, and his behavior patterns to be incredibly annoying.  Lucas could easily have had a non-annoying character fill Jar-Jar’s place, simply by having the character speak Galactic Standard without that ***-awful “me-sa, you-sa, red-sa, blue-sa” nonsense, and making the voice a bit lower on the scale, instead of being that high-pitched, grating whine.  With those changes, I could easily have enjoyed the rest of the character.

Here's always been my thing.... why did Jar Jar have to be an idiot?  We see the Gungans as a whole were not stupid and in fact a proud Warrior Race.  If you'll allow the indulgence, here's how I would have had his character.  Instead of him hindering Qui-Gon in his initial appearance he actually aids him by ambushing some droids from the water...but goes a bit overboard with their destruction.  You find out he is exiled because he disobeyed orders by refusing to attack a couple of Naboo people fishing to close to Gungan waters.  The rest of the film would barely be altered by this I believe.  Through the story you the main take away is his quick to fight mentality.  Fast Forward to Ep. II he has been made a representative and voices to Anakin his displeasure at not being able to do much more than talk...something Anakin can very much relate to.
         Once he has Padme's Vote in the Senate his eagerness and willingness to fight could just as easily be manipulated by Palpatine.

[PsychoSith]

There's a reason for this trend.

Pop Quiz:

What, in your own words, is the over plot of episodes II and VIII?

The plot was quite good, I'll be the first to admit: a civil war igniting after the republic gains access to a large army of clones taken from an untrustworthy source all being orchestrated by Palpatine whilst chronicling the downfall of the Chosen One himself as the future emperor pulls the strings? Great concept! And i personally enjoy episode III a good bit.

But episode II my issues arent the plot. My issue is we spend 50% of the time chronicling one of the single most awkward and creepy romance ever put to the screen combined with legendarily bad dialogue, suffering from major pacing whiplash from the pacing of jumping from frolicking in a field to fighting a jetpack ninja in no-time, a (in the context of the film) flimsy villain who deserved more backstory, seeing bizarre CGI choices that looked horrifically out of place, the fact we have to see Yoda; a cerebral, wise, mentor character, doing ninja flips and hopping everywhere like a small child on sugar in a lightsaber fight. And I'm sorry but Ewan McGregor and Sir Christopher Lee cant make up for every other actor in this movie not understanding how human(/alien?) emotion works. And Christopher Lee was such a waste of potential on Dooku, a character who was criminally underused.

I try not to rant about these movies much and please dont let my opnion affect anyone's enjoyment of AotC. I just really did not like it and I struggle with people saying "but its so much better than the sequels." Might be I just look for different things in movies, but at least I can believe the cast of TRoS are real people 

[Darth Logos]

Jumping back for a second to the "Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack" thing, I believe it was somewhere in the Jedi Apprentice series (though I may be wrong), it talks about how the Jedi should never initiate the fight. Never be the first to make the first move. That is for the opponent (Sith). As soon as your opponent tries to do something, you are free to defend yourself in any means necessary. This includes a strong offense. However, as a Jedi, you should never be the first to attack. In that Yoda vs. Red Guards scene, they clearly acted in aggression first, to which Yoda did not kill them, but took them out of the picture instantly so he could immediately face the greater threat without distraction.

We actually don't know what they were about to do. All we know is that they were getting into a stance. We never got to see if it was offensive or defensive. You assume it was offensive simply because they work for the bad guy. ô¿o

Second, no matter how necessary his speech in the Senate was to the plot, I still find him, his speech patterns, and his behavior patterns to be incredibly annoying.  Lucas could easily have had a non-annoying character fill Jar-Jar’s place, simply by having the character speak Galactic Standard without that ***-awful “me-sa, you-sa, red-sa, blue-sa” nonsense, and making the voice a bit lower on the scale, instead of being that high-pitched, grating whine.  With those changes, I could easily have enjoyed the rest of the character.

You want Jar Jar fixed? Read the Shakespeare's Star Wars books by Ian Doescher.

[Racona Nova]

Anyway, I like the movies, be it PT, OT or ST ^^ Okay, VIII was *odd* in some points, I agree on that, but I wouldn't say it was bad just because of that. All movies had some odd points, but none of them were critical enough to spoil the whole movie - at least for me

[PsychoSith]

Anyway, I like the movies, be it PT, OT or ST ^^ Okay, VIII was *odd* in some points, I agree on that, but I wouldn't say it was bad just because of that. All movies had some odd points, but none of them were critical enough to spoil the whole movie - at least for me

I largely agree! (obviously like I said I have on sticking point in the franchise - but I'll admit there were a couple cool sequences)

[Darth Logos]

Tried to mod my last post, but timed out.

I think that there's the difference. You want to use the power as a deterrent. To say "you cant fight me, don't even try". I think Palpatine is more a long the lines of straight sadism. He wants them to fight him, so he can demonstrate in their last moments of life that they didnt have a chance. Its a cruel logic, but within his character i think.

Not just a deterrent for the immediate battle, but also one against future attacks. Survivors would be able to spread the word that I can't be fought. However, I must concede that Papls has a well documented history of arrogance and toying with his enemies.

Here's always been my thing.... why did Jar Jar have to be an idiot?  We see the Gungans as a whole were not stupid and in fact a proud Warrior Race.  If you'll allow the indulgence, here's how I would have had his character.  Instead of him hindering Qui-Gon in his initial appearance he actually aids him by ambushing some droids from the water...but goes a bit overboard with their destruction.  You find out he is exiled because he disobeyed orders by refusing to attack a couple of Naboo people fishing to close to Gungan waters.  The rest of the film would barely be altered by this I believe.  Through the story you the main take away is his quick to fight mentality.  Fast Forward to Ep. II he has been made a representative and voices to Anakin his displeasure at not being able to do much more than talk...something Anakin can very much relate to.
Once he has Padme's Vote in the Senate his eagerness and willingness to fight could just as easily be manipulated by Palpatine.

WOW that took a few readings to get what you were saying. I have issues with the idea of the Gungans, a secretive and secluded people, directly attacking over an incident on the surface.

I think the biggest reason that Jar Jar was made to be the fool was because it then defies the logic of expectation. The audience doesn't foreshadow anything useful coming from the character....kinda like Finn. Then when something good does happen as a result, it's a complete surprise. The thing is though, despite him having the most sincere intentions, he's still a klutz. Palpatine baited him hardcore into his proposal of Emergency Powers. I feel he truly wanted to help, but a fool is easily manipulated.

But episode II my issues arent the plot. My issue is we spend 50% of the time chronicling one of the single most awkward and creepy romance ever put to the screen combined with legendarily bad dialogue, suffering from major pacing whiplash from the pacing of jumping from frolicking in a field to fighting a jetpack ninja in no-time, a (in the context of the film) flimsy villain who deserved more backstory, seeing bizarre CGI choices that looked horrifically out of place, the fact we have to see Yoda; a cerebral, wise, mentor character, doing ninja flips and hopping everywhere like a small child on sugar in a lightsaber fight. And I'm sorry but Ewan McGregor and Sir Christopher Lee cant make up for every other actor in this movie not understanding how human(/alien?) emotion works. And Christopher Lee was such a waste of potential on Dooku, a character who was criminally underused.

I try not to rant about these movies much and please dont let my opnion affect anyone's enjoyment of AotC. I just really did not like it and I struggle with people saying "but its so much better than the sequels." Might be I just look for different things in movies, but at least I can believe the cast of TRoS are real people 

I can't argue with any of these points. Again, I'll advocate watching the Nostalgia Critic's Top 11 Good Things from the prequels. He has some very good insights. This is where I learned that a great actor cannot trump a bad director. Lucas may be a visionary story teller, but a director he is not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5uf1bkQQ-s&t=1s

The plot was quite good, I'll be the first to admit: a civil war igniting after the republic gains access to a large army of clones taken from an untrustworthy source all being orchestrated by Palpatine whilst chronicling the downfall of the Chosen One himself as the future emperor pulls the strings? Great concept! And i personally enjoy episode III a good bit.

Alright, you answered....half my question. Albeit your causality is reversed. The Military Creation Act came about as a result of the Separatists. Honestly, we really needed a movie that fleshed out Dooku's rise and the formation of the CIS, not just a blurb in the crawl. The only shadowy aspect of it was that the clones had been in production for 10 years already, and Obi Wan only stumbled upon it while hunting Jango.

Now what about the plot of TLJ?

[PsychoSith]

Now what about the plot of TLJ?

A-ha, and here we approach my point as well.

TLJ has a simplistic plot; The Resistance on the run from a First Order that (logically) spun its still enormous naval power around on the rebels to wipe them out fully in retaliation for SKB. The FO tracks them down, and the Resistance needs to eliminate the tracker. Finn and Rose attempt to sort this whilst Admiral Holdo attempts to formulate an escape option that doesnt rely on hyperspace.

Meanwhile Rey convinces an old and embittered Luke to train her if nothing else to prove the Jedi wrong. Rey discovers her connection to Kylo and leaves to confront him.

This all comes to a head when Kylo kills Snoke, attempts to turn Rey, and Finn and Rose are captured. Holdo does her thing to cover the rebel escape, everyone makes it to Crait and are able to slip away while Luke uses Kylo's rage to distract him.

I went into more detail here than in my description of TCW simply because TCW you could go on for hours with how convoluted it gets. TLJ has a simpler plot but Star Wars movies dont need a complex plot to work - A New Hope taught us this. TLJ certainly does have its issues - questionable pacing, a bad side-quest B plot, and it ripped the fandom apart with its controversial portrayal of Luke.

However, what I can give this movie that I cant extend to AotC is that The dialogue and acting was good. Adam Driver delivers as he does throughout the new trilogy, and Rey effectively conveys the "confused apprentice" vibes. Mark Hamill, (whether you like the character decisions or not) absolutely rocks his role. Poe goes through a fitting character arc where he actually grows beyond an explosive obsessed frat boy. Finn's arc was admittedly rehashed, but John Boyega nonetheless did his due diligence and made it believable, even if we would have liked to see more growth. The only truly bad dialogue for me came from Rose, and her acting was fine, the writing limited what her actress could do. TLJ also had (and I'll fight people on this) the best visuals of the whole franchise. Color and lighting was used to terrific effect here. I can always enjoy watching TLJ, which is just something I cant say for AotC. Not to say people who dislike TLJ are wrong, but I do think it should be given more credit.

[Darth Logos]

A-ha, and here we approach my point as well.

TLJ has a simplistic plot; The Resistance on the run from a First Order that (logically) spun its still enormous naval power around on the rebels to wipe them out fully in retaliation for SKB. The FO tracks them down, and the Resistance needs to eliminate the tracker. Finn and Rose attempt to sort this whilst Admiral Holdo attempts to formulate an escape option that doesnt rely on hyperspace.

Meanwhile Rey convinces an old and embittered Luke to train her if nothing else to prove the Jedi wrong. Rey discovers her connection to Kylo and leaves to confront him.

This all comes to a head when Kylo kills Snoke, attempts to turn Rey, and Finn and Rose are captured. Holdo does her thing to cover the rebel escape, everyone makes it to Crait and are able to slip away while Luke uses Kylo's rage to distract him.

I went into more detail here than in my description of TCW simply because TCW you could go on for hours with how convoluted it gets. TLJ has a simpler plot but Star Wars movies dont need a complex plot to work - A New Hope taught us this. TLJ certainly does have its issues - questionable pacing, a bad side-quest B plot, and it ripped the fandom apart with its controversial portrayal of Luke.

However, what I can give this movie that I cant extend to AotC is that The dialogue and acting was good. Adam Driver delivers as he does throughout the new trilogy, and Rey effectively conveys the "confused apprentice" vibes. Mark Hamill, (whether you like the character decisions or not) absolutely rocks his role. Poe goes through a fitting character arc where he actually grows beyond an explosive obsessed frat boy. Finn's arc was admittedly rehashed, but John Boyega nonetheless did his due diligence and made it believable, even if we would have liked to see more growth. The only truly bad dialogue for me came from Rose, and her acting was fine, the writing limited what her actress could do. TLJ also had (and I'll fight people on this) the best visuals of the whole franchise. Color and lighting was used to terrific effect here. I can always enjoy watching TLJ, which is just something I cant say for AotC. Not to say people who dislike TLJ are wrong, but I do think it should be given more credit.

To sum-up: The world's most boring cinematic car chase. Rey still got no training. A romance that wasn't better than Twilight. The premature death of the big bad. A bunch of failed escape attempts resulting in the absolute decimation of the Resistance.

So you're saying that TLJ was a $#!% story wrapped up in all the hallmarks of good film making and this makes it more tolerable than ATC?

This movie fell apart for me in the first 5min. If you're going to wipe the Resistance out, why....WHY do you even let a ship approach, let alone answer his call and take his $#!% instead of immediately BLOWING HIM INTO DETRITUS?

Officer - "Sir, ship approching."
Hux - "Destroy it."
[Poe gets shot down]


Written and directed by George Lucas meme.

The prequels may have been poorly directed, but they told a story that went far beyond the main character......   Holy crap, I think I just solved it. The sequels sucked because Rey is the only real story point. It took them 3 movies to tell the weak story of a girl finding her place in the galaxy and dealing with it. <zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz>