Thoughts on The Rise of Skywalker - SPOILERS

[PsychoSith]

To sum-up: The world's most boring cinematic car chase. Rey still got no training. A romance that wasn't better than Twilight. The premature death of the big bad. A bunch of failed escape attempts resulting in the absolute decimation of the Resistance.

So you're saying that TLJ was a $#!% story wrapped up in all the hallmarks of good film making and this makes it more tolerable than ATC?

This movie fell apart for me in the first 5min. If you're going to wipe the Resistance out, why....WHY do you even let a ship approach, let alone answer his call and take his $#!% instead of immediately BLOWING HIM INTO DETRITUS?

Officer - "Sir, ship approching."
Hux - "Destroy it."
[Poe gets shot down]


Written and directed by George Lucas meme.

The prequels may have been poorly directed, but they told a story that went far beyond the main character......   Holy crap, I think I just solved it. The sequels sucked because Rey is the only real story point. It took them 3 movies to tell the weak story of a girl finding her place in the galaxy and dealing with it. <zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz>

I never said it was a bad story. I said I get why people didnt like it. Personally, for me TLJ wasnt about the chase - its was about the formation of Kylo and Rey's connection which becomes one of the largest story beats in TRoS. But to handle some of the more specific points

-Of course the FO doesn't immediately shoot Poe down, both the FO and Empire have a long and storied history of arrogance - especially when it comes to a single light fighter. Hux's curiosity and arrogance got the best of him and they paid with a Dreadnought.

-Rey's lack of training also becomes important. Her "raw power" as Luke put it carried her through quite a bit, and the training she gleamed from Kylo's mind only amplified that, this movie wasnt about making Rey the next Luke (that was more TRoS territory), this movie was about Rey as you put it - finding out who she is, for herself. Not who she's related to, but who she herself is. This is why she has to make the judgment call with Kylo. She truly could have turned her back on the resistance, she didnt owe them much truthfully; it was a moment that galvanized her as a good person, as a Jedi at heart.

-There wasnt a premature death of a BBEG, because Snoke wasnt the BBEG. The story had even in the last movie, neglected expanding on Snoke in favor of giving Kylo more depth. And depth he received in spades.

-I couldve done without the Rose/Finn B plot. I saw a pretty good video on it where the reviewer suggested instead of Rose teaching Finn the horros of war (I mean Finn should know this already tbh - child soldier after all), it should have been Finn teaching Poe the horros of war. Would make for an interesting alternate take, but by no means does the Rose/Finn stuff ruin the other 85% of the movie for me.

Im saying TLJ was an average, if highly different SW movie. A good movie, not great, but not bad.

EDIT: and just to poke a little fun (obviously not my 100% authentic thoughts just got a chuckle from the idea):

 The prequels sucked because Anakin is the only real story point. It took them 3 movies to tell the weak story of a boy finding his place in the galaxy and not dealing with it.

 The OT sucked because Luke is the only real story point. It took them 3 movies to tell the weak story of a boy finding his place in the galaxy and dealing with it.

[Cyclops942]

You want Jar Jar fixed? Read the Shakespeare's Star Wars books by Ian Doescher.

First, thanks for the link... now I have more stuff to read. 

Second, I grew up on a farm.  If I wanted Jar-Jar “fixed,” I know exactly how to take care of that, but that would do nothing about his high-pitched voice.

[Darth Logos]

I never said it was a bad story. I said I get why people didnt like it. Personally, for me TLJ wasnt about the chase - its was about the formation of Kylo and Rey's connection which becomes one of the largest story beats in TRoS. But to handle some of the more specific points

It was made moot by the sequel. Snoke said he was responsible for the "connection", Palps said it was a rarity, implied as something that happens naturally through the Force.

-Of course the FO doesn't immediately shoot Poe down, both the FO and Empire have a long and storied history of arrogance - especially when it comes to a single light fighter. Hux's curiosity and arrogance got the best of him and they paid with a Dreadnought.

Yeah.....no.

-Rey's lack of training also becomes important. Her "raw power" as Luke put it carried her through quite a bit, and the training she gleaned from Kylo's mind only amplified that, this movie wasnt about making Rey the next Luke (that was more TRoS territory), this movie was about Rey as you put it - finding out who she is, for herself. Not who she's related to, but who she herself is. This is why she has to make the judgment call with Kylo. She truly could have turned her back on the resistance, she didnt owe them much truthfully; it was a moment that galvanized her as a good person, as a Jedi at heart.

Ok. Let's put a teenager with a fresh license in an Indy car and see how far raw power and no training gets them. -_- Also, same thing applies to knowledge without practice. Simply watching a boxing match let's me know how to throw a punch, but doesn't mean I'll instantly be able to contend with a heavy weight champ. Anakin had the highest midichlorian count of any Jedi in history, implying that he was more powerful, and yet, he was defeated by a "lesser" opponent with greater skill. Also, who she was related to was an after thought.

-There wasnt a premature death of a BBEG, because Snoke wasnt the BBEG. The story had even in the last movie, neglected expanding on Snoke in favor of giving Kylo more depth. And depth he received in spades.

Snoke was a mystery guest on the holo. I honestly thought he would be the size of Maz; small but powerful. Then he turns out to be normal sized and just butt ugly. What's his beef with the Jedi and the Republic? Who knows, he's dead. Why does he come out of hiding to chase down a handful of Resistance ships? Who knows, he's dead. How did he find Ren and the other members of the emo boy band? Who knows, he's dead. How is he that powerful in the DS and not Sith? Who knows, HE'S DEAD. Keep in mind that Sidious creating Snoke is a retcon
In the first 2 trilogies, we already knew who was pulling the strings. In the OT, he was Emperor. Doesn't need much explanation. In the PT, he's merely a Sith Master plotting to become the unchallenged authority in the galaxy (aka: Emperor). But who the hell was Snoke in TFA and TLJ?

As for Kyle's so-called "depth": "I wanna kill my parents to grow stronger in the Dark Side. (zzzzzzzzzzzz) I wanna hook up with this cute hunnie that also happens to be strong in the Force, then I can ditch this ugly ass old.....whatever he is. The most that was really done with the character was in TROS. Now, don't get me wrong, Adam's performance was great, but the story of the character was what failed. "I'm all evil, cuz my lame uncle tried to kill me and whatever. Now I'm going to throw away every good thing in the galaxy so I can be even more bad-guy evil and do really mean things." I mean, seriously, the only aspect they got right with the character in TLJ is that he's nothing more than a whipped dog.

-I couldve done without the Rose/Finn B plot. I saw a pretty good video on it where the reviewer suggested instead of Rose teaching Finn the horrors of war (I mean Finn should know this already tbh - child soldier after all), it should have been Finn teaching Poe the horrors of war. Would make for an interesting alternate take, but by no means does the Rose/Finn stuff ruin the other 85% of the movie for me.

Everyone and their dead great grandmother could have done without B plot. When the hell does Rose teach Finn anything? Also....don't you mean child janitor? You're partly right,....the other 50% of the movie. They put way too much focus on Finn and Rose, but hey...we have to copy the budding romance of Han and Leia.

Im saying TLJ was an average, if highly different SW movie. A good movie, not great, but not bad.

I won't deny that this trilogy was well filmed. I'd have given a nut to the cause, had the prequels been filmed that well. BUT, per usual, the prequels were George doing George: pushing the edge of what's possible. When was a time before Ep.I that most of the film was shot on a green screen sound stage, requiring actors that could consistently interact with things that weren't there? I can't remember one, so I'll welcome a memory jog.

EDIT: and just to poke a little fun (obviously not my 100% authentic thoughts just got a chuckle from the idea):

The prequels sucked because Anakin is the only real story point. It took them 3 movies to tell the weak story of a boy finding his place in the galaxy and not dealing with it.

Doesn't really deal with it, that's why he secretly marries, and ends up becoming instrumental in the destruction of the Jedi and the fall of the Republic, and becomes a Sith Lord. (Living the good life.)
The prequels sucked because a) George is a horrible director, and b) an even worse romance writer. But screw it, we got podracing out of 'em.

The OT sucked because Luke is the only real story point. It took them 3 movies to tell the weak story of a boy finding his place in the galaxy and dealing with it.

YOU TAKE IT BACK! YOU TAKE IT BACK RIGHT NOW! 

The OT was really about Luke dealing with his dad (So let's copy it, but not too much, so we'll make it grandpa), the Rebels struggle against a fascist Empire, and the budding romance of Han and Leia.

[Bob Loblaw]

The prequels may have been poorly directed, but they told a story that went far beyond the main character......   Holy crap, I think I just solved it. The sequels sucked because Rey is the only real story point.

100% This ^. Case closed in my opinion.
That is EXACTLY what fails the most about the ST: No meaningful connections between characters aside from last names.   

They should have called the trilogy, REY: a SOLO story, Chapters 1,2 and3.

i used to defend and like TFA and TLJ, but I can't deal with where they ended up. I don't know why I had any hope that they could fix what I eventually saw was so wrong with TLJ.
I rarely weigh in on these topics despite reading every bit of them. Thank you guys for providing insight and entertainment while remaining civil.
 

[PsychoSith]

It was made moot by the sequel. Snoke said he was responsible for the "connection", Palps said it was a rarity, implied as something that happens naturally through the Force.
Yeah.....no.
Ok. Let's put a teenager with a fresh license in an Indy car and see how far raw power and no training gets them. -_- Also, same thing applies to knowledge without practice. Simply watching a boxing match let's me know how to throw a punch, but doesn't mean I'll instantly be able to contend with a heavy weight champ. Anakin had the highest midichlorian count of any Jedi in history, implying that he was more powerful, and yet, he was defeated by a "lesser" opponent with greater skill. Also, who she was related to was an after thought.
Snoke was a mystery guest on the holo. I honestly thought he would be the size of Maz; small but powerful. Then he turns out to be normal sized and just butt ugly. What's his beef with the Jedi and the Republic? Who knows, he's dead. Why does he come out of hiding to chase down a handful of Resistance ships? Who knows, he's dead. How did he find Ren and the other members of the emo boy band? Who knows, he's dead. How is he that powerful in the DS and not Sith? Who knows, HE'S DEAD. Keep in mind that Sidious creating Snoke is a retcon
In the first 2 trilogies, we already knew who was pulling the strings. In the OT, he was Emperor. Doesn't need much explanation. In the PT, he's merely a Sith Master plotting to become the unchallenged authority in the galaxy (aka: Emperor). But who the hell was Snoke in TFA and TLJ?

As for Kyle's so-called "depth": "I wanna kill my parents to grow stronger in the Dark Side. (zzzzzzzzzzzz) I wanna hook up with this cute hunnie that also happens to be strong in the Force, then I can ditch this ugly ass old.....whatever he is. The most that was really done with the character was in TROS. Now, don't get me wrong, Adam's performance was great, but the story of the character was what failed. "I'm all evil, cuz my lame uncle tried to kill me and whatever. Now I'm going to throw away every good thing in the galaxy so I can be even more bad-guy evil and do really mean things." I mean, seriously, the only aspect they got right with the character in TLJ is that he's nothing more than a whipped dog.
Everyone and their dead great grandmother could have done without B plot. When the hell does Rose teach Finn anything? Also....don't you mean child janitor? You're partly right,....the other 50% of the movie. They put way too much focus on Finn and Rose, but hey...we have to copy the budding romance of Han and Leia.
I won't deny that this trilogy was well filmed. I'd have given a nut to the cause, had the prequels been filmed that well. BUT, per usual, the prequels were George doing George: pushing the edge of what's possible. When was a time before Ep.I that most of the film was shot on a green screen sound stage, requiring actors that could consistently interact with things that weren't there? I can't remember one, so I'll welcome a memory jog.


Doesn't really deal with it, that's why he secretly marries, and ends up becoming instrumental in the destruction of the Jedi and the fall of the Republic, and becomes a Sith Lord. (Living the good life.)
The prequels sucked because a) George is a horrible director, and b) an even worse romance writer. But screw it, we got podracing out of 'em.
YOU TAKE IT BACK! YOU TAKE IT BACK RIGHT NOW! 

The OT was really about Luke dealing with his dad (So let's copy it, but not too much, so we'll make it grandpa), the Rebels struggle against a fascist Empire, and the budding romance of Han and Leia.

- I do believe Snoke believed he caused their connection, and I'll go so far as to say he even strengthened it and awakened some of the latent potential present.

- Darth Vader himself tried to 1v1 Luke during the battle of Yavin instead of letting the AAA take care of things and the whole Death Star got destroyed because of it. The Imperials and FO have always treated individual fighters as harmless to a capital ship.

- But a fight is much different than racing. A novice can beat a professional in the heat of a chaotic moment since you cant control extraneous factors. Case-in-point, Kylo's grievous injury during that fight. You try taking a magnum round to the gut and then engaging in a swordfight (x2) and seeing how that goes. More than that, Rey's lack of training does bite her later in TRoS: without Leia connecting to Kylo's mind, he had Rey dead to rights: what happens when the trained fighter fights the untrained fighter on even ground. I'm also not convinced her lineage was an afterthought, JJ would not have set her parentage up the way he did in TFA unless he had a good idea of where his "headcanon" went. Happened to be that he got the opportunity to direct the last movie and bring that to fruition.

- Snoke had just as much explanation in TLJ than Palps did in ESB. He was the evil ruler of the galaxy - where did he come from? Who knows, never explained. We had to get a whole trilogy to explain Palpatine's origins. But even with that Kylo has more development than Palpatine - or *any* movie villain! Dont believe me? To wit; the motives of all major SW movie villains as explained by the movies they appear in:
-Palpatine: EEEVIIIIIIIL
-Dooku: Doesnt like the Jedi - who knows why.
-Grievous: Idk I get pretty mad during as asthma attack too, I guess.
-Vader: Was told the dark side could save his wife. It didnt. (to be 100% fair he also did butt heads with the Jedi council a lot; Vader has okay reasoning if we ignore the shark-jump of "my wife might die time to kill some kids")
-Snoke: EEEVIIIIIIL *now with 50% less calories*
-Kylo Ren: Was set-up to be the next coming of a Jedi he never met, was betrayed by his Uncle (who was a legendary Jedi in his own right), and had a powerful Dark Sider whispering into his head as a child.

100% This ^. Case closed in my opinion.
That is EXACTLY what fails the most about the ST: No meaningful connections between characters aside from last names.   

They should have called the trilogy, REY: a SOLO story, Chapters 1,2 and3.

i used to defend and like TFA and TLJ, but I can't deal with where they ended up. I don't know why I had any hope that they could fix what I eventually saw was so wrong with TLJ.
I rarely weigh in on these topics despite reading every bit of them. Thank you guys for providing insight and entertainment while remaining civil.
 

Rey is the main character. And even if you didnt like the conclusion of the trilogy I'd argue that shouldnt interrupt your opinion of the previous two. I'd also argue there's a *massively* important connection between Rey and Kylo. That is kind of a huge part of the trilogy. As well as good character connections between Kylo and Luke, as their interaction at the end of TLJ was fairly emblematic for how the Jedi act on Luke's part.

[Bob Loblaw]

Rey is the main character. And even if you didnt like the conclusion of the trilogy I'd argue that shouldnt interrupt your opinion of the previous two. I'd also argue there's a *massively* important connection between Rey and Kylo. That is kind of a huge part of the trilogy. As well as good character connections between Kylo and Luke, as their interaction at the end of TLJ was fairly emblematic for how the Jedi act on Luke's part.

I understand what you are saying about the Rey/Kylo, Kylo/Luke connections. I personally feel like these connections, and many other POSSIBLE connections in this trilogy are lacking ANY depth, but that's just my opinion.

No need for argument, for I am a SW nerd! I will probably watch TFA, TLJ AND TRoS another hundred or so times each... just to be sure.

[Darth Tepes]

I will probably watch TFA, TLJ AND TRoS another hundred or so times each... just to be sure.

huh...more patience than I have.  I've watched TFA maybe 10 times in and out of the theater.  TLJ....twice.   TROS..... haven't seen it yet...that'll be a redbox weekend.  Once will be enough I'm sure.

[Darth Logos]

- I do believe Snoke believed he caused their connection, and I'll go so far as to say he even strengthened it and awakened some of the latent potential present.

Meh, I thought the whole connection thing was a weak point anyway.

- Darth Vader himself tried to 1v1 Luke during the battle of Yavin instead of letting the AAA take care of things and the whole Death Star got destroyed because of it. The Imperials and FO have always treated individual fighters as harmless to a capital ship.

Ahem....as it was in the Clone Wars, Vader (formerly known as Anakin) was undoubtedly the best pilot on the DS. But Vader's objective wasn't ship-to-ship combat, it was taking out the splinter group that was up to no good in the trench. He only encountered Luke on his trench run.

- But a fight is much different than racing. A novice can beat a professional in the heat of a chaotic moment since you cant control extraneous factors. Case-in-point, Kylo's grievous injury during that fight. You try taking a magnum round to the gut and then engaging in a swordfight (x2) and seeing how that goes. More than that, Rey's lack of training does bite her later in TRoS: without Leia connecting to Kylo's mind, he had Rey dead to rights: what happens when the trained fighter fights the untrained fighter on even ground. I'm also not convinced her lineage was an afterthought, JJ would not have set her parentage up the way he did in TFA unless he had a good idea of where his "headcanon" went. Happened to be that he got the opportunity to direct the last movie and bring that to fruition.

I'm not talking about racing, just driving it. You have to agree that a racecar is a highly specialized work of automotive engineering; you don't just put anyone in the cockpit and they drive like Mario Andretti. Same thing with the Force. That's why a Jedi starts at childhood and spends many many years to reach knight let alone Master. I was also more hinting at that abysmal throne room scene. I know she has help, but she's up against highly trained and hardened zealots. Raw power and a plucky can-do attitude aren't going to win the day. However, I'll tell you what had a greater chance of happening: Dark Side. Fear and anger, along with lack of training and will to survive is a formula for DS smackdown. Been watching SWR again. The scene where Ezra is faced with the Inq on the asteroid; he surrenders to the Force......but more specifically the Dark Side. He was afraid and angry and oh look untrained. And what he did even had a DS adept crapping his pants.

I'll concede that JJ may have had Rey's lineage in mind from the beginning before the putz wrecked it. But then, that in itself is another lame copy-paste from the OT. Hero has ties to a main villain. <monotone> Ooooo how original.

- Snoke had just as much explanation in TLJ than Palps did in ESB. He was the evil ruler of the galaxy - where did he come from? Who knows, never explained. We had to get a whole trilogy to explain Palpatine's origins. But even with that Kylo has more development than Palpatine - or *any* movie villain! Dont believe me? To wit; the motives of all major SW movie villains as explained by the movies they appear in:

Palps didn't need explanation in ESB. He was the corrupt evil ruler of the Galaxy. Simple yet effective. Kyle has about as much development as Anakin and Vader.

-Palpatine: EEEVIIIIIIIL

Pretty much, but you have to remember when the character was written. Back then, 2D was good enough. However, the character's motives were fleshed out better over time.

-Dooku: Doesnt like the Jedi - who knows why.

Dooku was a political idealist. He had grown weary of the corruption and bureaucracy, so when Sidious offered him a chance to make a better system, he took it. I think this is the reason I always liked Dooku as a villain: he actually did want to make the galaxy a better place.

-Grievous: Idk I get pretty mad during an asthma attack too, I guess.

What I've gleaned of Grievous is that he sought to be the ultimate warrior. In his quest for power through augmentation, he allowed his will to be stripped. Look up in the visual dictionary; he has cybernetic implants that actually allow him to be controlled.

-Vader: Was told the dark side could save his wife. It didnt. (to be 100% fair he also did butt heads with the Jedi council a lot; Vader has okay reasoning if we ignore the shark-jump of "my wife might die time to kill some kids")

To be fair, when you eliminate an opposing ideology, you don't want survivors seeking revenge. Vader was more truly lost than evil. This was further explained in the PT. He sacrificed everything he had to protect his woman, then ends up killing her via broken heart. But as was established in Ep. 2, Anakin didn't trust the system. Solution: TELL people how things are going to be, and MAKE them agree.

-Snoke: EEEVIIIIIIL *now with 50% less calories*

Points for that. But you're not wrong. He's a ripoff of the Emperor, but he required more explanation. He wasn't the "heir to the Empire" , he wasn't an authority of any kind. So where did he come from and why is he established?

-Kylo Ren: Was set-up to be the next coming of a Jedi he never met, was betrayed by his Uncle (who was a legendary Jedi in his own right), and had a powerful Dark Sider whispering into his head as a child.

As much as I hate to admit, and despite being a pale shadow of Darth Caedus, Ren for the most part had his own original agenda. He was powerful and arrogant, and felt entitled. Where Luke feared what would become of this, Snoke nurtured and manipulated it. As time progressed, Ren felt that his only option was to stay on his dark path.

Rey is the main character. And even if you didnt like the conclusion of the trilogy I'd argue that shouldnt interrupt your opinion of the previous two. I'd also argue there's a *massively* important connection between Rey and Kylo. That is kind of a huge part of the trilogy. As well as good character connections between Kylo and Luke, as their interaction at the end of TLJ was fairly emblematic for how the Jedi act on Luke's part.

I think he's referring as to how contrived this so-called connection is. It goes from

Kyle: "I dig you. Join me and we'll rule."
Rey: "I hate you, I hate you, I hate you. You hurt my friends and made my life hell."

to

Kyle: "I can't go back."
Rey: "OMG I'm totes going to fix you and bring you back to the light."

As if THAT hasn't already been played out 35 years ago.


Also, further thoughts on this "spirit collection" Galef brought up. Anybody ever had an issue with the multi-voice reverb effect Sidious took on when inducting Vader? This theory is beginning to alleviate my issues.

[PsychoSith]

Palps didn't need explanation in ESB. He was the corrupt evil ruler of the Galaxy. Simple yet effective. Kyle has about as much development as Anakin and Vader.
Pretty much, but you have to remember when the character was written. Back then, 2D was good enough. However, the character's motives were fleshed out better over time.
Dooku was a political idealist. He had grown weary of the corruption and bureaucracy, so when Sidious offered him a chance to make a better system, he took it. I think this is the reason I always liked Dooku as a villain: he actually did want to make the galaxy a better place.
What I've gleaned of Grievous is that he sought to be the ultimate warrior. In his quest for power through augmentation, he allowed his will to be stripped. Look up in the visual dictionary; he has cybernetic implants that actually allow him to be controlled.
To be fair, when you eliminate an opposing ideology, you don't want survivors seeking revenge. Vader was more truly lost than evil. This was further explained in the PT. He sacrificed everything he had to protect his woman, then ends up killing her via broken heart. But as was established in Ep. 2, Anakin didn't trust the system. Solution: TELL people how things are going to be, and MAKE them agree.
Points for that. But you're not wrong. He's a ripoff of the Emperor, but he required more explanation. He wasn't the "heir to the Empire" , he wasn't an authority of any kind. So where did he come from and why is he established?
As much as I hate to admit, and despite being a pale shadow of Darth Caedus, Ren for the most part had his own original agenda. He was powerful and arrogant, and felt entitled. Where Luke feared what would become of this, Snoke nurtured and manipulated it. As time progressed, Ren felt that his only option was to stay on his dark path.

As I said, those were the motives as the movies themselves explained. Cut out all the secondary content and there's really only two 3-dimensional villains of the main saga; Kylo and Vader. Including secondary content however, yes many of these character did indeed get the depth they deserved.

Dooku is especially apparent in this: in TCW he was, as you said, a political idealist but also still locked in the mindset of a noble: I distinctly remember the episode where he used a farming village for weapons testing, right after an episode with him speaking publicly on the Confederacy and I think thats just brilliant character building. One episode he's preaching how the confederacy is this utopia beyond the corruption of the Republic, and the next he shows downright contempt for anyone not willing/able to throw political or monetary backing his way. Such a conceited slimeball that really does believe in the message he's preaching, but also that the weak and poor are nothing but fodder. For comparison, you have movie Dooku who feels like like a cardboard cutout of the TCW version, despite Sir Christopher Lee's best efforts to make him interesting. Makes me angry everytime I see the movies they wasted an actor of his caliber on such a lame villain, to only turn around and give him actual depth without Lee heading the role.

[Darth Logos]

As I said, those were the motives as the movies themselves explained. Cut out all the secondary content and there's really only two 3-dimensional villains of the main saga; Kylo and Vader. Including secondary content however, yes many of these character did indeed get the depth they deserved.

Dooku is especially apparent in this: in TCW he was, as you said, a political idealist but also still locked in the mindset of a noble: I distinctly remember the episode where he used a farming village for weapons testing, right after an episode with him speaking publicly on the Confederacy and I think thats just brilliant character building. One episode he's preaching how the confederacy is this utopia beyond the corruption of the Republic, and the next he shows downright contempt for anyone not willing/able to throw political or monetary backing his way. Such a conceited slimeball that really does believe in the message he's preaching, but also that the weak and poor are nothing but fodder. For comparison, you have movie Dooku who feels like like a cardboard cutout of the TCW version, despite Sir Christopher Lee's best efforts to make him interesting. Makes me angry everytime I see the movies they wasted an actor of his caliber on such a lame villain, to only turn around and give him actual depth without Lee heading the role.

Dude, the movies have wasted supreme amounts of acting talent ever since Ep.I.

[phantom1592]

Kyle: "I can't go back."
Rey: "OMG I'm totes going to fix you and bring you back to the light."

As if THAT hasn't already been played out 35 years ago.

I will say that I actually did BELIEVE that Ben came back to the light side. His fall and redemption arc was handled MUCH better than Vaders ever was. I honestly NEVER believed that Vadar turned 'good' again.  He told Luke that together they'd overthrow the emperor.... and while Emperor was killing Luke, He literally overthrew him.  Killing the Emperor was ALWAYS the end goal and in true Sith fashion he got the job done. All with one hand no less. Lucas tried to push the idea of redemption... but it always feels REALLY hollow.

Ben? Between killing Han and the influences that battered him... you could see him getting torn between two extremes and finally choosing the light.  I can't say I forgive him for the Han death... but I do beleive that he abandoned the dark and came back.

[phantom1592]

- But a fight is much different than racing. A novice can beat a professional in the heat of a chaotic moment since you cant control extraneous factors. Case-in-point, Kylo's grievous injury during that fight. You try taking a magnum round to the gut and then engaging in a swordfight (x2) and seeing how that goes. More than that, Rey's lack of training does bite her later in TRoS: without Leia connecting to Kylo's mind, he had Rey dead to rights: what happens when the trained fighter fights the untrained fighter on even ground. I'm also not convinced her lineage was an afterthought, JJ would not have set her parentage up the way he did in TFA unless he had a good idea of where his "headcanon" went. Happened to be that he got the opportunity to direct the last movie and bring that to fruition.

Honestly I really feel that WAY too much is focused on 'training'.  Anakin used the Force to fly podracers that 'no human could'.... Luke was blocking blaster bolts form the training droid the VERY FIRST time ObiWan put the visor down. The moment these characters opened themselves up to the force... it would guide and control them... Decades of Training was never necessary. You can see that by the way Luke develops with his short time on Dagobah as the ONLY training he gets in 3 movies...

A Jedi's training was more about emotional control and how NOT to fall to the dark side. not how to move a rock.... but more WHEN to move a rock... and how not to get angry and hurl that rock through a person. Power is a temptation... and Jedi need to resist that constant temptation. So get those kids when they're young and teach them to control their emotions before they have a tantrum and kill their parents...

Rey was bit Mary Sueish... but nothing bothered me TOO much about it. The idea that she was 'right' and 'awesome' bugged me, because EVERYTHING she was doing was through anger and fear... so having her heading straight to evil actually fixed a lot of my complaints about the earlier movies.

Remember... the Dark side is "quicker... easier... but not stronger, and all her 'practice' was immediately based on the Dark Side.

- Snoke had just as much explanation in TLJ than Palps did in ESB. He was the evil ruler of the galaxy - where did he come from? Who knows, never explained. We had to get a whole trilogy to explain Palpatine's origins. But even with that Kylo has more development than Palpatine - or *any* movie villain! Dont believe me? To wit; the motives of all major SW movie villains as explained by the movies they appear in:
-Palpatine: EEEVIIIIIIIL
-Dooku: Doesnt like the Jedi - who knows why.
-Grievous: Idk I get pretty mad during as asthma attack too, I guess.
-Vader: Was told the dark side could save his wife. It didnt. (to be 100% fair he also did butt heads with the Jedi council a lot; Vader has okay reasoning if we ignore the shark-jump of "my wife might die time to kill some kids")
-Snoke: EEEVIIIIIIL *now with 50% less calories*
-Kylo Ren: Was set-up to be the next coming of a Jedi he never met, was betrayed by his Uncle (who was a legendary Jedi in his own right), and had a powerful Dark Sider whispering into his head as a child.

I would argue Snoke got MORE explanation than Palpatine. For starters... he got a NAME!! in the OT, it was just 'The Emperor'. I dont' remember Palpatine being mentioned till the later novels and the Prequels. Even the toys were just 'The Emperor'...  with zero explanation of anything about him.

[Darth Logos]

I will say that I actually did BELIEVE that Ben came back to the light side. His fall and redemption arc was handled MUCH better than Vaders ever was. I honestly NEVER believed that Vadar turned 'good' again.  He told Luke that together they'd overthrow the emperor.... and while Emperor was killing Luke, He literally overthrew him.  Killing the Emperor was ALWAYS the end goal and in true Sith fashion he got the job done. All with one hand no less. Lucas tried to push the idea of redemption... but it always feels REALLY hollow.

Ben? Between killing Han and the influences that battered him... you could see him getting torn between two extremes and finally choosing the light.  I can't say I forgive him for the Han death... but I do beleive that he abandoned the dark and came back.

I will grant that TROS did have a better redemption arc as far as the antagonist actually showing his struggle. That may be in large part to the fact that we saw it on his face. Vader was kinda stuck in perma-scowl as a means of survival. Plus we would have never had J.E.J. killing it if we had to deal with helmet on and helmet off voices.

And as for the traditional "kill your jerk boss" arc, well...some chode jumped the gun on that one.

Honestly I really feel that WAY too much is focused on 'training'.  Anakin used the Force to fly podracers that 'no human could'.... Luke was blocking blaster bolts form the training droid the VERY FIRST time ObiWan put the visor down. The moment these characters opened themselves up to the force... it would guide and control them... Decades of Training was never necessary. You can see that by the way Luke develops with his short time on Dagobah as the ONLY training he gets in 3 movies...

A Jedi's training was more about emotional control and how NOT to fall to the dark side. not how to move a rock.... but more WHEN to move a rock... and how not to get angry and hurl that rock through a person. Power is a temptation... and Jedi need to resist that constant temptation. So get those kids when they're young and teach them to control their emotions before they have a tantrum and kill their parents...

Rey was bit Mary Sueish... but nothing bothered me TOO much about it. The idea that she was 'right' and 'awesome' bugged me, because EVERYTHING she was doing was through anger and fear... so having her heading straight to evil actually fixed a lot of my complaints about the earlier movies.

Remember... the Dark side is "quicker... easier... but not stronger, and all her 'practice' was immediately based on the Dark Side.

I would argue Snoke got MORE explanation than Palpatine. For starters... he got a NAME!! in the OT, it was just 'The Emperor'. I dont' remember Palpatine being mentioned till the later novels and the Prequels. Even the toys were just 'The Emperor'...  with zero explanation of anything about him.

Actually, Anakin's use of the Force was unconscious and more on par with survival instincts. Remember that up until that fateful Boonta Eve race, he had never even finished a race. Then, after Qui Gon told him to basically follow those gut instinct impulses you feel BOOM he not only finished but won.

Luke was being instructed by Obi Wan RIGHT THERE telling him how this thing is done.

Decades of training may not be necessary for skill, but could be necessary for strength in said skill. It wasn't just about moving a rock, it was about controlling the movement of the rock. For instance (and I can't believe I'm using this reference), when Rey tried to grab her saber back from Snoke, he not only snatches it out of her Force grip, but swings it wide and then bops her head with it as he brings it back to him. The whole crux of the sequels was that Rey and Kyle were the most powerful things EVER. And yet Snoke's display of power makes them both look like children. His downfall came per usual in his hubris. His whipped dog had finally learned how to mask his intent. Now that I think about it, I actually liked how they handled that part, despite not actually liking what happened.

I can attest in my own training as drafter. I was easily capable of working AutoCAD my freshman year of college, but my ability and speed were nowhere near what they are today. Rey went into almost every situation completely clueless as to what she's doing and BOOM "Look at me I'm so badass with the Force thanks to my XX chromosome."

Don't spout your misguided Jedi rhetoric to me. The Dark Side is a means to an end, much like a power tool (no pun intended), and if not handled with proper care, can and will maim or destroy you.