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Author Topic: Is the lightsaber being taken seriously?  (Read 2422 times)
jessifer
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« on: January 21, 2020, 08:37:27 AM »

Okay, I am a huge SW fan and love everything about it. Despite some bad flaws I have still enjoyed every movie to some degree or another, but, does anyone else notice they seem to be trivializing lightsabers, as well as downright getting it wrong as to the workings of lightsabers?

Case in point, in TFA, Kylo slices Finn across the back and it...puts him in a coma?! Last I checked, a full on slice across the back would cut you in half. And then a few minutes later, Rey slices Kylo in the face and it doesn’t just cut his head in half? Since when? Darth Maul should be pretty upset right now as he got a raw deal.

Second, It is NOT the case that all lightsabers used kaiburr (original spelling) crystals. You could make a saber with any high-quality crystal. In Legends timeline, Jacen Solo used a Corusca gem, Jaina Solo grew a crystal, Lowbacca used a crystal out of an old computer system an Tenel Ka originally used a flawed crystal from a volcano, which caused her lightsaber to fail resulting in the loss of her hand. Her second saber used a rainbow gem from Gallinore out of her tiara as a Hapan princess. In fact, the kaiburr crystal originally made red blades specifically. It was sought out by Sith as it made a stronger blade that could sometimes break through a blade not using a kaiburr, however, they tended to be unstable and were at risk of blowing up. Thus they were also a symbol of the Sith’s love for power even when dangerous.

Then, if the saber Rey and Kylo fight over and destroy in TLJ blew up, unleashing enough force to throw them both across the room, there is no way she could, essentially, “tape” it back together. For one, an explosion of that magnitude would have destroyed the casing (says every grenade ever detonated), but also, seriously!? She jury rigs it back together using steampunk duct tape?

Like I said, huge fan, love sabers, but not happy with some decisions about the lightsaber since Disney took over.

Let me know your thoughts!


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superpetros
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2020, 10:12:00 AM »

Hello.

From a general point of view i think we should not invest too much in why/how lightsabers in star wars work, since most of things make no sence.
Considering lightsaber, the very first time obiwan uses one in the cantina it seems to cut like a regular sword (the cut arm bleeds) then it's more depicted as the cauterizing effect that is the most aknowledged. But then in the phantome menace, it is used to melt doors suggesting the lightsaber radiates a huge amout of heat.

To go more in details:
1) Considering Kylo slice on FInn, i would say that this is related to kylo saber which is clearly different, its blade seems to be kinda electrical but also solid in its aspect. This is even more the case in TROS, it does appear in the trailer where he uses hiw lightsaber to lift up a guy with the strange hat.

2) Rey slice on kylo: that's probably the harder to explain, but by watching the duel on youtube, you dont see much of the strike itself, so i guess we can just say it's just the extreme of the tip that touches him.
But i think the point is mostly for Kylo to get the scar from Rey, which leads to ressentment not because of the scar itslef but the fact she defeated him and the scar reminds him of that. Plus there is a physical connection doubling their force connection.
As a roleplayer i guess you can sommarize it as a Rule of cool (which can be more or less justified in universe, here because we dont see much of the strike) > Rule as intended (Lightsaber are awesome space wizard sword that can cut throug most things) > Rule as written (confliction between episodes).

3) Considering the reparation of the saber, rewatching the scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWbrStoCKzU ; the lightsaber is clearly cut "cleanly" in two pieces. So yeah i don't see why she could not repair it.
Link to the official prop saber toy of TROS: https://fsmedia.imgix.net/dc/57/04/ec/5f43/42ed/ac16/ccfdcb733bf5/reys-saber-repaired.png?auto=format%2Ccompress&dpr=2&w=650. So it appeared she repaired it.
 Don't know if we see it clearly in the movie though, would need to go image by image when it's availabile on dvd.


COnsidering the crystals themselves, i think the EU while some parts are great lacked some supervision and the autors were sometimes free to do kinda what they wanted so relying on it for sources is hard i think. (Personally the fact you can use part of a computer for a lightsaber is kinda mehhh).
From a more meta point of view the old EU is not canon and i don't think the new canon explains that much about how a lightsaber work. And i don't think the crystals to be a plot point of the disney movies so..... Well in fact i guess i didn't really understood what you meant in that part of your post.

Sorry if some things are poorly worded, i am not a native english speaker.
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Darth Tepes
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2020, 03:08:40 PM »

Okay, I am a huge SW fan and love everything about it. Despite some bad flaws I have still enjoyed every movie to some degree or another, but, does anyone else notice they seem to be trivializing lightsabers, as well as downright getting it wrong as to the workings of lightsabers?

Case in point, in TFA, Kylo slices Finn across the back and it...puts him in a coma?! Last I checked, a full on slice across the back would cut you in half. And then a few minutes later, Rey slices Kylo in the face and it doesn’t just cut his head in half? Since when? Darth Maul should be pretty upset right now as he got a raw deal.

Second, It is NOT the case that all lightsabers used kaiburr (original spelling) crystals. You could make a saber with any high-quality crystal. In Legends timeline, Jacen Solo used a Corusca gem, Jaina Solo grew a crystal, Lowbacca used a crystal out of an old computer system an Tenel Ka originally used a flawed crystal from a volcano, which caused her lightsaber to fail resulting in the loss of her hand. Her second saber used a rainbow gem from Gallinore out of her tiara as a Hapan princess. In fact, the kaiburr crystal originally made red blades specifically. It was sought out by Sith as it made a stronger blade that could sometimes break through a blade not using a kaiburr, however, they tended to be unstable and were at risk of blowing up. Thus they were also a symbol of the Sith’s love for power even when dangerous.

Then, if the saber Rey and Kylo fight over and destroy in TLJ blew up, unleashing enough force to throw them both across the room, there is no way she could, essentially, “tape” it back together. For one, an explosion of that magnitude would have destroyed the casing (says every grenade ever detonated), but also, seriously!? She jury rigs it back together using steampunk duct tape?

Like I said, huge fan, love sabers, but not happy with some decisions about the lightsaber since Disney took over.

Let me know your thoughts!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In terms of the fights:  Kylo ran the saber up Finn's spine...it wasn't a full cut.  It wasn't really meant to kill but incapacitate and hurt...a lot.  In fact the original plan seemed to be it damaged Finn's spine and he had to have a cybernetic replacement.  But that idea was scrapped by Rian Johnson most likely.   In terms of Rey, she got Kylo with the Tip of the saber and his wound was supposed to be much worse...but again Rian Johnson decided to change its position and lessen it.


In terms of the Crystals they decided to make the Sabers much more "mystical" and unique.  Which if you go back and see the back and forths between Logos and myself, I am a fan of...the idea at least.  Its execution however isn't the greatest.  The list of what is considered a Kyber Crystal is actually pretty long within new canon.
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2020, 05:19:00 PM »

I think I remember reading somewhere that the Kyber Crystal that Kylo Ren uses in his lightsaber is cracked, thus the instability of the blade when it's ignited.  This might mean that the blade is significantly weaker in power than what a normal lightsaber with a proper Kyber Crystal will be.

But then you go back to the Maul/Obi-Wan fight in Rebels and if you notice, while Obi-Wan did slice through Maul's lightsaber, it didn't look like he did any damage to him (this might be because they didn't want to show such a significant amount of damage because there might be kiddies watching).

There is also the argument that the shock of the blade going across Finn's back caused him to go into shock from the pain.  And while I don't think it would be enough to send him into a coma, it could be said that perhaps they put him in a coma-like state somehow while his back was being healed in order to keep him from moving the muscles in that area and damaging himself further.

But really, it all comes down to semantics and we could argue over every little detail if we were to go over every little bit of the movies.
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2020, 05:27:16 PM »

I like this guy's take on sequel saber tech.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c85KaDSMIRM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c85KaDSMIRM</a>
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phantom1592
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2020, 06:35:29 PM »

Anakin's eye scar was supposed to come from a lightsaber battle too.

Also, sometimes the force users can do the whole 'Absorb/Dissipate' force power to lessen the damage or block energy. Like when Vader blocks Han's shots with his hand.... that can instinctively 'lessen' a lightsaber's damage...

in theory… Wink
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2020, 02:21:23 AM »

Anakin's eye scar was supposed to come from a lightsaber battle too.

Also, sometimes the force users can do the whole 'Absorb/Dissipate' force power to lessen the damage or block energy. Like when Vader blocks Han's shots with his hand.... that can instinctively 'lessen' a lightsaber's damage...

in theory… Wink

Well, in theory, there are some Jedi who can stop the blade of a lightsaber with their hand.  I can only surmise that they are surrounding their hand in some kind of Force bubble to sort of lightly push the blade away from their hand and because of this, it looks like they are holding the tip in their hand.

As for Anakin's scar, I think I remember that in the Clone Wars cartoon (not the one with Ahsoka), that he got that scar from a duel with Asajj Ventress.  I can't attest to how he walked away with just a scar for that. 

As for Han's shots and Vader blocking them with his hands, they were robotic, so it probably wouldn't have bothered him if they had hit.  I also don't know what the gloves covering them were made of, so they may have lessened the impact of the bolts considerably to the point that they weren't even a bother to him.  I mean, Luke in Empire struck Vader's shoulder pad with his lightsaber and it didn't look like it did any damage, other than the sparks that came off it.  The yell he made on the contact might have just been one of surprise that he was actually hit instead of any sort of pain.

But, like I said previously, we could argue semantics over every little thing in every Star Wars movie and show and still be going at it years from now.
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phantom1592
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2020, 07:16:08 AM »

Well, in theory, there are some Jedi who can stop the blade of a lightsaber with their hand.  I can only surmise that they are surrounding their hand in some kind of Force bubble to sort of lightly push the blade away from their hand and because of this, it looks like they are holding the tip in their hand.

As for Anakin's scar, I think I remember that in the Clone Wars cartoon (not the one with Ahsoka), that he got that scar from a duel with Asajj Ventress.  I can't attest to how he walked away with just a scar for that. 

As for Han's shots and Vader blocking them with his hands, they were robotic, so it probably wouldn't have bothered him if they had hit.  I also don't know what the gloves covering them were made of, so they may have lessened the impact of the bolts considerably to the point that they weren't even a bother to him.  I mean, Luke in Empire struck Vader's shoulder pad with his lightsaber and it didn't look like it did any damage, other than the sparks that came off it.  The yell he made on the contact might have just been one of surprise that he was actually hit instead of any sort of pain.

But, like I said previously, we could argue semantics over every little thing in every Star Wars movie and show and still be going at it years from now.

Truth about Semantics. I personally believe that Han has a pretty powerful Hand Cannon there... a direct hit should be able to blow up a robot hand. But I remember the West End sourcebooks directly relating that a force power.

I personally believe it'll all come down to the force. The same way the force guides and directs your lightsaber to block a blaster bolt... it'll move you out of harm. Jedi vs. normal guy... The force protects  REALLY well. Jedi vs. Jedi... you have dueling forces and it can 'almost' get you to safety. Either you dodged 'almost' out of the way... or you absorbed some of the energy... or some other crazy space wizard jazz. I personally don't get too bent out of shape when weird crap like that happens in the movies, because just based on various lores, I can come up with a dozen ways that work within the lore even if they don't spell it out for us.


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superpetros
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2020, 07:23:46 AM »

Well i watched return of the jedi yesterday at work (yes i do have a bullshell job) and during the battle of the sarlaac pit, (when luke is not doing useless swings) nobody seems to be cut when touched by lightsaber but rather pushed by it into the sarlaac pit.
It's obviously due to the limit of special effects at that time, but in this scene the lightsaber seems to work like a regular sword except it can throw back laser bolts too.

On a side note but i just thought about it, but so in this scene luke does not just kill his ennemies, but purposefully throw them in a place to be digested for 1000 years..... and three weeks later the guy is just like "i will never join the dark side"......

On a more serious side, and this applies not only to lightsaber, but Star Wars is fundamentally a space opera for famillies to see with their kids, and entairtainment has always been prioritized over technical or realistic aspects and consistency.  (Especially regarding technology, space and military organisations).
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jessifer
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2020, 08:19:39 AM »

Well, in theory, there are some Jedi who can stop the blade of a lightsaber with their hand.  I can only surmise that they are surrounding their hand in some kind of Force bubble to sort of lightly push the blade away from their hand and because of this, it looks like they are holding the tip in their hand.

All true, but Finn is not a Jedi or even Force sensitive from what we’ve seen.

I do seem to remember something in Legends timeline about Jacen absorbing energy like that, but not during a lightsaber duel.

In all, I think they have made some decisions based on their needs for that particular film without really thinking through or paying attention to what they have said/done in past films, etc. It’s kind of bad continuity (film term) like having someone left handed in one film and right handed in another. Plus, I don’t know how many people are SW scholars like some of us, versus just moderate fans (or worshippers of the almighty dollar).
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Arendsdale
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2020, 12:18:08 PM »

***TROS Spoilers***

It may not be cannon but JJ did confirm that Finn was going to tell Rey that he’s force sensitive when they were in the quicksand...this was mildly backed up when he just “knew” which ship was the command ship and how he also felt when Rey originally died
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2020, 03:49:57 PM »

As for Anakin's scar, I think I remember that in the Clone Wars cartoon (not the one with Ahsoka), that he got that scar from a duel with Asajj Ventress.  I can't attest to how he walked away with just a scar for that. 
You are referring to the micro-series? The origins of this scar are unknown. He reveals it to Padme after returning another campaign. But it took place in the 2nd part, after his fight with Ventress.





Quote
As for Han's shots and Vader blocking them with his hands, they were robotic, so it probably wouldn't have bothered him if they had hit.  I also don't know what the gloves covering them were made of, so they may have lessened the impact of the bolts considerably to the point that they weren't even a bother to him.  I mean, Luke in Empire struck Vader's shoulder pad with his lightsaber and it didn't look like it did any damage, other than the sparks that came off it.  The yell he made on the contact might have just been one of surprise that he was actually hit instead of any sort of pain.
I'm a bigger fan of Vader using Tuteminus to absorb the blasts, in a similar fashion to how Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning. As for the armor, I was of the understanding that it was Sith armor. Basically strengthened against saber attacks through alchemey.

Quote
But, like I said previously, we could argue semantics over every little thing in every Star Wars movie and show and still be going at it years from now.
And that's part of the fun of being a SW fan. Grin

***TROS Spoilers***

It may not be cannon but JJ did confirm that Finn was going to tell Rey that he’s force sensitive when they were in the quicksand...this was mildly backed up when he just “knew” which ship was the command ship and how he also felt when Rey originally died
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SpartanGrey117
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2020, 07:25:45 PM »

Truth about Semantics. I personally believe that Han has a pretty powerful Hand Cannon there... a direct hit should be able to blow up a robot hand. But I remember the West End sourcebooks directly relating that a force power.


In RotJ, while Luke is rescuing Han, he get shot in his robotic hand by a blaster bolt, and while it seems to burn through the glove and his synthetic skin, his hand seems to be fine afterwards.
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