Click here for lightsabers
  • Home
  • Help
  • Login
  • Register
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Author Topic: Big lore inconsistency in The Mandalorian?  (Read 2664 times)
DrVibble
Knight Aspirant
*

Force Alignment: 0
Posts: 13


All roads are long roads. So make your own destiny


« on: August 11, 2020, 09:26:47 AM »

Hello there, Saberforum.

A few weeks ago I finished watching the Mandalorian for the first time. I had a couple problems here and there, but in general I loved it. One of the things I loved most about it was that Rogue One style of a narrower focus that allowed them to lean into the lore and culture, and I loved the way they did Mandalorians.

However, just a few days ago I realised something about the show, specifically about the way it handles Mandalorian culture, that's given me considerable pause. I don't know if there's already an established reason for this, I'm working off continuity established in TCW, Rebels, the Mandalorian, and old ideas about Mandalorian culture from Karen Traviss' Republic Commando trilogy (which is actually still pretty dang consistent).

The big problem is this: since when have Mandalorians not been allowed to take off their helmets???

Again, maybe I missed something in a comic or old game (maybe KOTOR?), or maybe there's been a retroactive explanation (which for SW would be standard fare, in truth), but that one idea, which is kind of huge in the show, is literally blatantly inconsistent with every other representation of Mandalorians in canon.

Pre Viszla, Bo-Katan Kryze, Gar Saxon, Fenn Rau, Sabine Wren and all the rest of her entire family, as well as Jango Fett himself, not to mention Kal Skirata and Walon Vau, all remove their helmets on the regular. Most of these characters, perhaps with the exception of Jango and maybe the traitorous Saxon, are portrayed as some of the truest Mandalorians there are. Mando (I won't use his name because spoilers) is a similarly devoted Mandalorian, and so is The Armorer, and lots of what they do and say is pleasingly consistent with established Mandalorian ways (life based on honour, emphasis on combat, the importance of Beskar, the frequency of adoption), and this all made me very happy.

HOWEVER, it took me a surprisingly long time to realise that the addition of Mandalorians not being allowed to take off their helmets in front of other people is, as far as I know, literally not true in all of the rest of Star Wars canon. Since another very important part of Mandalorian culture is how it basically doesn't ever change, I don't buy that this is a new Mandalorian custom.

Don't get me wrong, I do love The Mandalorian, and maybe I'm missing something, but isn't this an enormous continuity problem? Explanations are very welcome.

But I feel compelled to add: please try and keep any following discussion about the finer aspects of the very complicated SW lore civil and chill, and also please don't find some silly way to drag the ST or 'Disney' into this to deflect the issue. In general this forum is definitely one of the much more civil areas to discuss SW, but not everyone is always obliging. We're discussing The Mandalorian, its writers, and whatever other SW content directly deals with Mandalorians, and that can be discussed amicably. That is all.

Fire away, lore-keepers. I hope this isn't too big a hole to patch up.
Logged

To walk the line between light and dark is not balance, but compromise.

To control the dark side is to be above its control over you, to be above anger, aggression, greed. To confront and master your fear.

True balance is found in virtue, belief, and control. With these, a Jedi can do anything.

Snowkiller
Knight Apprentice
*

Force Alignment: 1
Posts: 23



« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2020, 10:03:11 AM »

I wondered about this too, I googled it a few days ago, without finding a real answer. Someone did say they thought it was a cultural thing within the planet, that so do and some don't. But that was just a theory.
Logged

Cern
Knight Lance Corporal
*

Force Alignment: 12
Posts: 68



« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2020, 10:34:12 AM »

"Our strength was once in our numbers. Now we live in the shadows and only come above ground one at a time. Our world was shattered by the Empire, with whom this coward shares tables."

My theory is that this was a custom put in place after Mandalore was purged. Maybe something akin to wearing black at a funeral?
Logged

"Evil is never the opposite of good, but rather its destroyer."

Darth Tepes
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: -776
Posts: 5182



« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2020, 12:55:09 PM »

The first part of this equation is to disregard the Karen Traviss novels as they were declared Non-Canon (Legends) by Disney in 2014...just like the rest of the EU. But they have skimmed some of the elements now.  So our first introduction to the Mando culture In current Canon is in TCW.  We see the Mando's have become a peaceful people focused on art and diplomacy with those who still follow the old ways (Pre Viszla) being shunned.

 FYI: Karen Traviss was pretty much solely responsible for developing the Mando way of life in the EU...when she saw what Lucas had decided to do with them she made her displeasure known and broke from Lucasfilm.


So...since you've seen TCW you know what happened:  Satine killed, Death Watch takes over, Maul Takes over Death Watch, Separatists attack Mandalore, Warrior Mando's return to help, Order 66.  Then during Rebels it seems pretty clear the only surviving Mando's are those that kept to the warrior culture (Makes sense) but their numbers are small.  By the time of The Mandalorian...about 9 ABY....The Empire had decimated the Mando's further to what they are when we see them.  Small clan's of bounty hunters.  Which is closer to what Karen Traviss had created.  So sometime in-between The Siege of Mandalore and The Mandalorian they either made up a new culture or went back to an earlier one.  It has not yet been established but hey...we are still only one season in.  Season 2 could expand greatly on it.
Logged

Light Side, Dark Side.  I'm the guy with the Saber.
Azure Omen in Adagan Silver
Stunt Initiate in Violet Amethyst
Bellicose in Consular Green
Flamberge SE in Blazing Red
 Emperor's Hand in Guardian Blue
Grand Master in Blazing Red

DrVibble
Knight Aspirant
*

Force Alignment: 0
Posts: 13


All roads are long roads. So make your own destiny


« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2020, 01:02:38 PM »

I'm sure there will be some kind of an explanation; it's very unlike these writers to make such a blinding contradiction, it's just nagging me right now.

Mandalorian culture isn't the type to change or vary, pretty much ever, and Mando himself was inducted into his clan during the Clone Wars and said he hadn't taken off his helmet in front of someone since he "wasn't much older than they are" (when pointing to a group of young children). He grew up during the times of the Empire, in other words during all four seasons of Rebels, when all these other Mandalorian characters existed, freely removing their helmets. Maybe he's just different like that? I don't know, and I do hope it's addressed, as consistency throughout endless retroactive justifications is what makes SW lore so charming.
Logged

To walk the line between light and dark is not balance, but compromise.

To control the dark side is to be above its control over you, to be above anger, aggression, greed. To confront and master your fear.

True balance is found in virtue, belief, and control. With these, a Jedi can do anything.

Darth Tepes
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: -776
Posts: 5182



« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2020, 01:28:07 PM »

I'm sure there will be some kind of an explanation; it's very unlike these writers to make such a blinding contradiction, it's just nagging me right now.

Mandalorian culture isn't the type to change or vary, pretty much ever, and Mando himself was inducted into his clan during the Clone Wars and said he hadn't taken off his helmet in front of someone since he "wasn't much older than they are" (when pointing to a group of young children). He grew up during the times of the Empire, in other words during all four seasons of Rebels, when all these other Mandalorian characters existed, freely removing their helmets. Maybe he's just different like that? I don't know, and I do hope it's addressed, as consistency throughout endless retroactive justifications is what makes SW lore so charming.

I wouldn't call it an inconsistency...its an addition.  After the Siege and then further after The Great Purge the Mando's were scattered into smaller clans.....this may just be "The Way" for this clan.  He may meet other Mando's from other clans and see them operating differently.  As far as Mando culture changing "rarely"..again that was established in the EU which is no longer canon.
Logged

Light Side, Dark Side.  I'm the guy with the Saber.
Azure Omen in Adagan Silver
Stunt Initiate in Violet Amethyst
Bellicose in Consular Green
Flamberge SE in Blazing Red
 Emperor's Hand in Guardian Blue
Grand Master in Blazing Red

DrVibble
Knight Aspirant
*

Force Alignment: 0
Posts: 13


All roads are long roads. So make your own destiny


« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2020, 02:54:26 PM »

That's fair. This little unit of Madalorians does seem pretty isolated; it's far from implausible that they have a different 'Way' to other clans. Hope it's addressed in season 2, as it is we can only speculate.
Logged

To walk the line between light and dark is not balance, but compromise.

To control the dark side is to be above its control over you, to be above anger, aggression, greed. To confront and master your fear.

True balance is found in virtue, belief, and control. With these, a Jedi can do anything.

Darth Tepes
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: -776
Posts: 5182



« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2020, 03:17:45 PM »

That's fair. This little unit of Madalorians does seem pretty isolated; it's far from implausible that they have a different 'Way' to other clans. Hope it's addressed in season 2, as it is we can only speculate.

Yep.  It does seem as if the others in the galaxy are aware of The Way...so I'm assuming the other Mando's may be in hiding and not active like the Group lead by the Armorer.  Intersting that conisdering there is a Viszla in the group and he hasn't vied for power. 
Logged

Light Side, Dark Side.  I'm the guy with the Saber.
Azure Omen in Adagan Silver
Stunt Initiate in Violet Amethyst
Bellicose in Consular Green
Flamberge SE in Blazing Red
 Emperor's Hand in Guardian Blue
Grand Master in Blazing Red

DrVibble
Knight Aspirant
*

Force Alignment: 0
Posts: 13


All roads are long roads. So make your own destiny


« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2020, 04:19:37 PM »

It could actually make for a pretty fun reveal in Season 2 since we know Temuera Morrison is returning as Boba, where Mando meets him and Boba removes his helmet casually and Mando's like WAIT WTF
Logged

To walk the line between light and dark is not balance, but compromise.

To control the dark side is to be above its control over you, to be above anger, aggression, greed. To confront and master your fear.

True balance is found in virtue, belief, and control. With these, a Jedi can do anything.

Saso Is-kor
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: 325
Posts: 1086


On the Side of the Light. Most of the time...


« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2020, 05:00:35 PM »

Like you mentioned I think Season 2 is going to expand on it a bit more. One of the theories I've also come across is that Din and his Mando buddies are part of the "old school" as it were, that is to say they are following some ancient customs of Mandalore that go back pretty far (and of course all of this is new to the Canon universe.) To my mind, all the scenes with the group of Mandos in the show just screams "we are part of an ancient culture with strict rules" and I think that's the flavor the producers were going for. But it isn't without its issues though, if what we are seeing in the show are presented as, like, the "true and pure" Mandalorians following the traditions of their ancestors then it kind of throws some shade on Bo Katan, Pre Vizsla, and that whole gang.

Another thing that caught my attention was the line that "Mandalorians aren't a race." I'm very interested to see where they take that as in Clone Wars the inhabitants of Mandalore are obviously referred to as Mandalorians, even the men, women, and children that had nothing to do with being warriors and were just peaceful civilians suffering at the hands of Vizsla and eventually Maul. Once again it seems like the show is throwing shade  Cheesy  Super curious how they're going to explain this.

Edit: To add more potential confusion into the mix, they still haven't actually confirmed in Canon that Jango Fett was a Mandalorian (though he claims to be). If being a Mandalorian is a creed that is taken and not based on one's ancestry and homeworld than I guess Jango makes the cut, but not entirely because of the whole removing the helmet issue. I guess he might be half-Mando or something. It kind of occurs to me that if they aren't careful with the explanation it might make the whole history of the "Mandalorians" we've seen so far kind of skewed. 
Logged

“You think you know the depths of corruption that plague the Jedi?” Saso hissed. “I’ve seen it, I’ve experienced it, I even embody it. Every breath I take is an affront to their lofty ideals and idle Force worship… and so they seek to exterminate me.” He looked deep into Barriss Offee’s eyes, “they were not successful in purging me from the galaxy, and neither will you be.”

Make Jedi pouches: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=37304.0
Make Jedi food capsules: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=38006.0

Darth Tepes
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: -776
Posts: 5182



« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2020, 05:37:23 PM »

Like you mentioned I think Season 2 is going to expand on it a bit more. One of the theories I've also come across is that Din and his Mando buddies are part of the "old school" as it were, that is to say they are following some ancient customs of Mandalore that go back pretty far (and of course all of this is new to the Canon universe.) To my mind, all the scenes with the group of Mandos in the show just screams "we are part of an ancient culture with strict rules" and I think that's the flavor the producers were going for. But it isn't without its issues though, if what we are seeing in the show are presented as, like, the "true and pure" Mandalorians following the traditions of their ancestors then it kind of throws some shade on Bo Katan, Pre Vizsla, and that whole gang.

Another thing that caught my attention was the line that "Mandalorians aren't a race." I'm very interested to see where they take that as in Clone Wars the inhabitants of Mandalore are obviously referred to as Mandalorians, even the men, women, and children that had nothing to do with being warriors and were just peaceful civilians suffering at the hands of Vizsla and eventually Maul. Once again it seems like the show is throwing shade  Cheesy  Super curious how they're going to explain this.

Edit: To add more potential confusion into the mix, they still haven't actually confirmed in Canon that Jango Fett was a Mandalorian (though he claims to be). If being a Mandalorian is a creed that is taken and not based on one's ancestry and homeworld than I guess Jango makes the cut, but not entirely because of the whole removing the helmet issue. I guess he might be half-Mando or something. It kind of occurs to me that if they aren't careful with the explanation it might make the whole history of the "Mandalorians" we've seen so far kind of skewed. 

I don't think it's throwing shade.  If this is actually an ancient way of doing things then it could just be the Mando's we saw before were not following it to the letter.  Kind of adapting elements of it.  Then this small clan after the Purge decided to adapted the whole ancient way.   OR   It isn't an ancient way and whoever started this Clan made up their own rules.   

Remember, before the Mandalorian Civil they were all warriors...until the New Mandalore Pacifist Movement arose.  Then they pushed those that followed the old Martial Ways out and became the "New" Mandalorians. 
Logged

Light Side, Dark Side.  I'm the guy with the Saber.
Azure Omen in Adagan Silver
Stunt Initiate in Violet Amethyst
Bellicose in Consular Green
Flamberge SE in Blazing Red
 Emperor's Hand in Guardian Blue
Grand Master in Blazing Red

Saso Is-kor
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: 325
Posts: 1086


On the Side of the Light. Most of the time...


« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2020, 08:48:31 PM »

I don't think it's throwing shade.  If this is actually an ancient way of doing things then it could just be the Mando's we saw before were not following it to the letter.

That's exactly my point about throwing shade. Bo Katan, Pre Vizsla, and the gang were portrayed as true warriors and the inheritors of what Mandalore stood for. Pre Vizsla himself said something similar in the Clone Wars series, in fact it was a running plot motivation for his character. If all of the sudden these new Mandalorians hiding underground, never removing masks, etc. are meant to be what being a "true" Mandalorian is, then I think that throws shade. Just my opinion.

I guess it goes to the heart of what retconning really is. I think it'll be interesting if by delving into Mandalorian culture they end up partially disenfranchising parts of the Clone Wars series.
Logged

“You think you know the depths of corruption that plague the Jedi?” Saso hissed. “I’ve seen it, I’ve experienced it, I even embody it. Every breath I take is an affront to their lofty ideals and idle Force worship… and so they seek to exterminate me.” He looked deep into Barriss Offee’s eyes, “they were not successful in purging me from the galaxy, and neither will you be.”

Make Jedi pouches: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=37304.0
Make Jedi food capsules: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=38006.0

Lord_S_Gray
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: 428
Posts: 1903



« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2020, 06:11:14 AM »

Agree with the above points, it was an oddity to see, but Many possibilities for explanation, perhaps the simplest answer is the Mando culture is not a monolith, some do it this was some do it that way...the galaxy is a big place, possible for two different societies to claim the title Mandalorian but have different ways developed apart over years e.g. settled Mandalorians on Mandalore itself diverged from a more nomadic group in the far past. Cultural change is another possibility for sure, if they have the storied history of Crusade then their culture has changed numerous times over the millenia why not once more.
Logged

Lord_S_Gray

Surik: "Kreia, what are you—are you a Jedi, a Sith?"
Kreia: "Does it matter? Of course it does, such titles allow you to break the galaxy into light and dark, categorize it. Perhaps I am neither, and I hold both as what they are, pieces of a whole."

Darth Tepes
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: -776
Posts: 5182



« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2020, 09:01:27 PM »

I'm leaning towards it being made up by this small clan and when The Mando meets others who do not follow "The Way" it might give him a character crisis.
Logged

Light Side, Dark Side.  I'm the guy with the Saber.
Azure Omen in Adagan Silver
Stunt Initiate in Violet Amethyst
Bellicose in Consular Green
Flamberge SE in Blazing Red
 Emperor's Hand in Guardian Blue
Grand Master in Blazing Red

Taegin Roan
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: 2066
Posts: 6245


Lord of the Force


« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2020, 05:27:13 AM »

I'm leaning towards it being made up by this small clan and when The Mando meets others who do not follow "The Way" it might give him a character crisis.

Agreed, either that or it was something implemented after the rise of the Empire. And as for the thing about him not taking it off since he was a child, that could be some sort of induction ritual until you either create your own clan, or join a different one. We shall see. But if I know anything of Filoni and Favreau, they will have an explanation for this. We will just have to wait and see what it is.
Logged

"I am the Outcast's Shadow" - Taegin Roan
"Confronting fear is the Destiny of a Jedi" - Luke Skywalker
"So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause." - Padmé Amidala

Pages: [1]   Go Up
Send this topic | Print
Jump to: