Dueling with Three Blades

[Hulk10]

Ok I see what you mean but what I find curious is that it strikes me as this sort of style seems to be more trouble than it is worth as carrying a double saber and a single saber would be carrying two very different weapons. If you really wanted to use such a fighting style wouldn't it be more practical to just use a pike saber instead of a double saber since the second blade of the double saber would not be used as much and might get in the way?

[SirLiftaLot]

Ok I see what you mean but what I find curious is that it strikes me as this sort of style seems to be more trouble than it is worth as carrying a double saber and a single saber would be carrying two very different weapons. If you really wanted to use such a fighting style wouldn't it be more practical to just use a pike saber instead of a double saber since the second blade of the double saber would not be used as much and might get in the way?

Funnily enough, I can actually do this, as I have two blades and some extensions, so I either use a pike and a standard saber, or even two pikes.

But yes, if we are replicating the Medieval photos I posted earlier, then having a saber pike and a standard saber would more closely replicate what they were doing, although it wouldn't be the three blades that OP was asking about. I will agree that if the staff is going to be used primarily for defending and also for stabbing more than striking, which is again pretty much the "sword and spear" concept demonstrated in the video earlier ITT, then you don't need the second blade on the staff/pike, but if you were for some reason going to do more strikes and one-handed spins with the longer saber, then the staff with two blades could provide you with more offensive capabilities at the expense of it potentially hitting yourself. So long as your hilt is lightsaber-proof in-universe, then a saberpike would provide all the defensive utility that the saberstaff would provide, as it still serves the "spear" role in the "spear and sword" strategy.

Edit: interestingly, Saber Legion has some strict rules on dueling with two sabers:

Max combined length of 84"
Max blade length for each blade: 39"
Min blade length of each blade: 8"
Max hilt lengths: 16"

Which means that a saber pike would not be allowed to be used for dual wielding under their rules, as its hilt is well over 16". But a saberstaff could be used here, if it's a short-hilted single-hand staff like Exar Kun's. You could have 2x 24" blades with a 16" hilt, but then that takes up 64 of your 84 inches, leaving you only 20" total for the other saber between the  blade and hilt. 2x 16" blades with a 16" hilt (so a 4' staff) would leave you with 36" for the single saber, which could work with 10" hilt and a 24" blade.

But finding a 16" hilt for a saberstaff would likely be a challenge, as even shoto hilts I've seen are 8.25" each, so coupled they'd be half an inch too long, although I guess if you trimmed 0.25" off each emitter it would pass. And all the single-piece staff hilts I've seen are at least 17", which means more modifications to make it work than the shoto ideas.

[TheCharlax]

Ok I see what you mean but what I find curious is that it strikes me as this sort of style seems to be more trouble than it is worth as carrying a double saber and a single saber would be carrying two very different weapons. If you really wanted to use such a fighting style wouldn't it be more practical to just use a pike saber instead of a double saber since the second blade of the double saber would not be used as much and might get in the way?

A pike has a greater hilt:blade ratio and would be heavier and more difficult to use with one hand, compared to a saber staff with a short hilt.  When it comes to defensive coverage  (and the occasional offensive swipe), a single-hand saberstaff is more effective than a single-hand pike.

[Hulk10]

Still seems unnecessary. Just as I learned that drawing a longer sword from a back mounted scabbard is hard. A double saber paired with a single saber seems overkill.

[SirLiftaLot]

A pike has a greater hilt:blade ratio and would be heavier and more difficult to use with one hand, compared to a saber staff with a short hilt.  When it comes to defensive coverage  (and the occasional offensive swipe), a single-hand saberstaff is more effective than a single-hand pike.

I had not thought of weight. Good catch!

US lists their 15" Yari pike extension at 0.75 pounds, and 0.15 pounds for a coupler, or 0.9 pounds total, or ~14.4 ounces. I read in a different thread here that a heavy grade 36" blade weighs 9 oz (which would be ~0.56 pounds). So running 2x pike extensions would bring you up to 1.8 pounds at 30" length added, while a 36" blade would add less than a third of that, saving over a pound!

[SirLiftaLot]

Still seems unnecessary. Just as I learned that drawing a longer sword from a back mounted scabbard is hard. A double saber paired with a single saber seems overkill.

What is necessary and what is unique or doable are not inherently the same though. If someone can be proficient with an over-the-top or exotic setup, it can catch people who are not prepared or trained against it off-guard, which can itself be advantageous. In-universe we've even seen Pong Krell use two saberstaffs, or four blades:

[Hulk10]

True dat.  However to my mind Pong Krell's ability makes more sense since he has four arms, he can use both ends of his two lightsabers. It makes for a really cool display though. And a rather terrifying oppenent.

[TheCharlax]

A double saber paired with a single saber seems overkill.

There Is No Kill Like Overkill.

But finding a 16" hilt for a saberstaff would likely be a challenge, as even shoto hilts I've seen are 8.25" each, so coupled they'd be half an inch too long, although I guess if you trimmed 0.25" off each emitter it would pass. And all the single-piece staff hilts I've seen are at least 17", which means more modifications to make it work than the shoto ideas.

I am wondering if there is a way to cut down Initiate v2 pommels to make that possible, before coupling them together. 

Although failing that, I think this would be my go-to solution, lol.

[SirLiftaLot]

True dat.  However to my mind Pong Krell's ability makes more sense since he has four arms, he can use both ends of his two lightsabers. It makes for a really cool display though. And a rather terrifying oppenent.

Does Pong ever actually use two hands/arms per saber though? In-universe, when you're blocking blaster bolts, having more blades means the ability to block more incoming fire. Pong blocked a lot of fire with his four blades from the Clones. I watched the first part of that fight in 1/4 speed, and never saw him have two hands on either saber at any time. So he was functionally only really using two arms, like a typical person would. Just a very big, strong, agile, skilled, force-using person.

There Is No Kill Like Overkill.

I am wondering if there is a way to cut down Initiate v2 pommels to make that possible, before coupling them together. 

Although failing that, I think this would be my go-to solution, lol.

Great, now I'm going to be stuck in a TV Tropes rabbit hole all night. But that's a cool design. How does it actually handle? I don't know if you could cut down Initiate V2s enough or not. I don't even honestly know the minimum length to house all the internals and still have some area for threads for a pommel. A hollow coupler would perhaps save a tiny bit of length to be saved, as you're not "giving up" any internal space for the coupler, since internals could fit inside of it as well.

[TheCharlax]

These parts are all for my gauntlet, so I can't commit to making this a permanent build, but from some light practice, it works surprisingly well.  When holding it by the upper hilt as one would a normal lightsaber, the downward-facing blade naturally rests further out.  This gives it a slight speed advantage over a normal saberstaff when it comes to blocking low attacks.

[DarthProdigal]

What is necessary and what is unique or doable are not inherently the same though. If someone can be proficient with an over-the-top or exotic setup, it can catch people who are not prepared or trained against it off-guard, which can itself be advantageous.

Exactly, the initial idea was posed as a "can I manage this, as a technique?" basically. Since the OP had successfully implemented a similar style without lightsabers. And as those great videos Sir found illustrate, similar weapon styles exist without lightsabers involved. So really we're just seeking to further adapt or build upon those principles as a basis for a style of lightsaber combat. I agree wholly with SirLiftaLot's assertion, it's doing it because it can be done. Pursuing something that will confuse, confound, and possibly overwhelm opponents. Giving them something they haven't trained for, and options they are therefore unprepared to face.

In the history of combat, new innovations or adaptations are often odd or confusing at first glance. Someone trained in single sword probably looked confusedly at the first person they saw wielding two simultaneously. But the distinct advantages make it worth it if used properly.

A pike has a greater hilt:blade ratio and would be heavier and more difficult to use with one hand, compared to a saber staff with a short hilt.  When it comes to defensive coverage  (and the occasional offensive swipe), a single-hand saberstaff is more effective than a single-hand pike.

I trust Charlax's experience and assertion. From stamina and mobility standpoints this makes sense. Also as stated I like this, for reasons I first signed on to the idea and had considered it previously myself. I'd rather have more offensive options available than less. You can't transform a pike or spear into a double blade mid combat, and it takes having to worry as much about/reorienting the dangerous end as needed less of an issue. From a Sith perspective in combat, having more damage dealing potential is worth added risks or extra training. Let alone the shock and awe effect of "this is intense, never seen someone do something like that before" if you become rather proficient. It's part intimidation, part hyper offensive options, and really just fundamentally cool. In MA sometimes the less practical weapons seemingly or exotic setups are just amazingly fun to use. The challenge in part being it's own reward, or the process we're collaborating in to design viable weapons types. One could argue it is unnecessary fundamentally to make a plasma blade to use for combat, and inherently dangerous, why not just stick with swords or sticks. It's just a terribly good time, that's my reasoning more often than not, and agreeing that Overkill is favorable more often than not. I suppose I simply want to be hyper offensive one day with an off hand saber staff. It just is a concept that calls to my inner warrior, and the call is irresistible. If you want, call it the call of the Dark Side.


@ TheCharlax  P.S. That is a very cool setup to address the design ideas and issues that had been floated around earlier in topic, I think it just looks wicked too. I could see several advantages from that type of setup already. As you said, that bottom blade (in the way you held it) wound up being further forward. So blocking with the top blade leaves it closer to your opponent. Meaning that if you kept it outside, and sidestep that direction while simultaneously rotating it in you're way past your opponent's guard and weapon already. It'd conceivably (similar to the curve of a curved lightsaber) throw off what someone trained to fight a saberstaff might expect just enough to land some serious blows. I like it, might have to ask exactly how it was done if I want to mess around with a variant.

[Hulk10]

I personally think that two single sabers, one in each hand is more my speed. Especially since mine are 32" inches long.

[TheCharlax]

@ TheCharlax  P.S. That is a very cool setup to address the design ideas and issues that had been floated around earlier in topic, I think it just looks wicked too. I could see several advantages from that type of setup already. As you said, that bottom blade (in the way you held it) wound up being further forward. So blocking with the top blade leaves it closer to your opponent. Meaning that if you kept it outside, and sidestep that direction while simultaneously rotating it in you're way past your opponent's guard and weapon already. It'd conceivably (similar to the curve of a curved lightsaber) throw off what someone trained to fight a saberstaff might expect just enough to land some serious blows. I like it, might have to ask exactly how it was done if I want to mess around with a variant.

Thank you very much!  If you want to try it, I cut a ring of vinyl tubing with a 1.25 inch inner-diameter.  It slides snugly over the pommel end of an Initiate v2, and also fits snugly into the 1.5 inch opening of a PVC Tee-shape coupler.  Once the coupler is attached, I add an additional vinyl ring of the same size to lock it in place, and then repeat the process on a second Initiate before joining them via a piece of PVC.  

Naturally, gluing all of it together would make it secure for hard-core dueling, but for just practicing and getting a feel, I think the vinyl and PVC hold together surprisingly well.  Hope that helps ^_^

[SirLiftaLot]

Thank you very much!  If you want to try it, I cut a ring of vinyl tubing with a 1.25 inch inner-diameter.  It slides snugly over the pommel end of an Initiate v2, and also fits snugly into the 1.5 inch opening of a PVC Tee-shape coupler.  Once the coupler is attached, I add an additional vinyl ring of the same size to lock it in place, and then repeat the process on a second Initiate before joining them via a piece of PVC.  

Naturally, gluing all of it together would make it secure for hard-core dueling, but for just practicing and getting a feel, I think the vinyl and PVC hold together surprisingly well.  Hope that helps ^_^

Very cool. Could you glue some spare pommels into the "holder" and then screw the sabers into place for a duel-ready setup?

[DarthProdigal]

Thank you very much!  If you want to try it, I cut a ring of vinyl tubing with a 1.25 inch inner-diameter.  It slides snugly over the pommel end of an Initiate v2, and also fits snugly into the 1.5 inch opening of a PVC Tee-shape coupler.  Once the coupler is attached, I add an additional vinyl ring of the same size to lock it in place, and then repeat the process on a second Initiate before joining them via a piece of PVC.  

Naturally, gluing all of it together would make it secure for hard-core dueling, but for just practicing and getting a feel, I think the vinyl and PVC hold together surprisingly well.  Hope that helps ^_^

Awesome! Thanks for sharing the info! It's appreciated and I very likely will cobble something together in the future for fun. I'm sure I'll make some purchases with some Free Initiates eventually that I might be able to work with or possibly a specific order because I love the "older model" initiates in appearance anyway. Now that I know there is a V2 coupler for saberstaff creation as well... It's on the agenda eventually, this makes for a more options to work with. I love so heavily exotic looking or functioning weaponry across the board, but lightsabers just have that extra WOW factor.

Very cool. Could you glue some spare pommels into the "holder" and then screw the sabers into place for a duel-ready setup?

I like this idea, I'm not sure how they screw together since I don't own a V2 but possibly? If so I see the utility in doing what you're saying: then they are very firmly joined together and even though the Z or S shaped coupler is more permanent/solid you can still remove the majority of your hilt/lightsaber for single use or a traditional saberstaff. 4 unique weapons setups with 2 different couplers, and all for the price of some additional pommels and some PVC. So possibly less than $50-60 ballpark depending on what you already have on hand.

Anyway, it'll be cool to see your true project upon completion eventually. This is just stupid amounts of fun more often than not.