Dooku's Lightsaber

[Hulk10]

I don't see how Dooku's lightsaber is particularly well suited to Makehi. Also I wonder if his Sith saber is the same one as his Jedi one.

[SirLiftaLot]

From the Star Wars Fandom site:

As sometimes occurred in the Jedi Order, Jedi Master Dooku set aside the lightsaber he had used as a Padawan. Dooku wished to create a superior lightsaber, and, after studying Jedi Archives to make the design, the Jedi Master had his personalized design. His lightsaber had no connection to the fashion at the time or to his master, Yoda. This lightsaber was made to suit his technique, and this weapon favored long, elegant moves and deftness of hand.[12] The lightsaber gave off a blue color, and Dooku even dueled Yoda with the lightsaber. However, Dooku would leave the Jedi Order sometime before the Invasion of Naboo, where his former Padawan, Qui-Gon Jinn, was killed.[1]

Studying Jedi Archive records, Dooku based his new weapon design after the curved hilts that were standard during the heyday of Form II lightsaber combat. The curve allowed the hilt to fit better into his hand, allowing for superior finesse and precise blade control.[2]

So he did have a curved-hilt saber at one point as a Jedi, but it wasn't his first lightsaber as a Jedi:

Dooku constructed his lightsaber shortly after becoming a Jedi Master, deliberately using a design that had little connection to the standard lightsaber he had wielded as a Knight.

And apparently it is the same hilt he used as a Sith:

When Dooku left the Jedi Order, he took his lightsaber with him. When he joined the Order of the Sith Lords, Dooku converted the weapon into a Sith lightsaber by replacing the original blue crystal with a scarlet synthetic gem, improving the blade's cutting power at the expense of maneuverability. However, despite renouncing the Jedi way, Dooku would continue to greet opponents with the traditional Makashi salute.[2][5][4]

[Hulk10]

Yeah I'd heard that. But I don't understand why that curved handle helped with Makeshi.

[For Tyeth]

Hi there,

Now some of this may be incorrect as it is mingled with EU/Legends material but as far as I know Dooku has had three hilts. His padawan hilt. a Knight/Master's hilt and his third curved hilt. As Dooku's trust in the Jedi faltered and he became disillusioned he decided to build his curved hilt. His Knight/Master hilt might have looked like this...


This is Dooku as a Jedi with Master Sifo-Dyas from some EU/Legends material btw.

As regards the advantages/disadvantages of the curved hilt I looked into it a while ago and realised that a curved hilt allowed the user to create unusual angles of attack than if using a straight hilt. Imagine the arm, hand and hilt being in line - then as it swings you can follow a predicted arc of movement. However if you have a curved hilt you can modulate how tightly you grip the handle which affects the angle and arc of the blade itself. The mechanics are similar to a Velociraptor arm - it can swing it's arm but then it can flex it's wrist/hand to curl the talon claw too. So if Dooku aimed a strike at your left shoulder you could block that - but at the last moment he tightens his grip which pulls the blade into a tighter arc and would slide under your block (nearer to your midsection). These angles were subtle but very unpredictable.
I am by no means a martial artist or swordsman but it seems feasible.

[Hulk10]

Hmmm I see.

[Darth Tepes]

This  is going to be a hot take for many but you have to remember the Jedi Combat styles were made up of the flashiest bits of Kendo, Wushu and Olympic Fencing.....none of which are actual combat arts.  They are sports based on combat...this is why I have such an issue with the saber combat in the prequels.  All twirling flash and no substance.  As For Tyeth said a curved hilt allows for a control to alter angles and also a tighter grip.  The inspiration came from Filipino weapons as well as the Curved fencing grip.  Christopher Lee being an expert Fencer was familiar and comfortable with this type of grip. 

[Hulk10]

You are not wrong Darth Tepes.  Those lightsaber fights were not practical.

[SirLiftaLot]

This  is going to be a hot take for many but you have to remember the Jedi Combat styles were made up of the flashiest bits of Kendo, Wushu and Olympic Fencing.....none of which are actual combat arts.  They are sports based on combat...this is why I have such an issue with the saber combat in the prequels.  All twirling flash and no substance.  As For Tyeth said a curved hilt allows for a control to alter angles and also a tighter grip.  The inspiration came from Filipino weapons as well as the Curved fencing grip.  Christopher Lee being an expert Fencer was familiar and comfortable with this type of grip. 

Yeah, you have a point. Flashy fight choreography doesn't always make for the most practical combat techniques. Not to mention sometimes IIRC it looked like they were aiming at each others sabers for flashy back and forth fighting, instead of aiming at their opponent's body to try to strike them. For something that feels more realistic and grounded, at least to me, the Obi-Wan vs Maul fight in Rebels may fit the bill. Maul still did some spins and flourishes to get into his fighting stance, and perhaps as a bit of intimidation as well, and then he struck at his opponent, who blocked and countered, and it was over very quickly, but had a ton of weight behind it. That said, the Maul vs Ahsoka fight from Clone Wars also has a TON of flashy moves and acrobatics, but given that Ahsoka and Maul are both very athletic fighters, and that the motion capture for both of them, Park who played Maul in Episode 1, and Kim who played the Armorer in The Mandalorian), have extensive martial arts experience, which I think gives it more of a realistic combat feel than purely actors who, while still great with the lightsabers in the films, may not quite capture some of the nuances that professional stunt-actors and martial artists can. Just my $0.02.

[DarthRondoudou]

Yeah, you have a point. Flashy fight choreography doesn't always make for the most practical combat techniques. Not to mention sometimes IIRC it looked like they were aiming at each others sabers for flashy back and forth fighting, instead of aiming at their opponent's body to try to strike them. For something that feels more realistic and grounded, at least to me, the Obi-Wan vs Maul fight in Rebels may fit the bill. Maul still did some spins and flourishes to get into his fighting stance, and perhaps as a bit of intimidation as well, and then he struck at his opponent, who blocked and countered, and it was over very quickly, but had a ton of weight behind it. That said, the Maul vs Ahsoka fight from Clone Wars also has a TON of flashy moves and acrobatics, but given that Ahsoka and Maul are both very athletic fighters, and that the motion capture for both of them, Park who played Maul in Episode 1, and Kim who played the Armorer in The Mandalorian), have extensive martial arts experience, which I think gives it more of a realistic combat feel than purely actors who, while still great with the lightsabers in the films, may not quite capture some of the nuances that professional stunt-actors and martial artists can. Just my $0.02.

To be fair, realistic fighting will be full of tension and thrilling to practisionners, but it won't hype people. I grew up with the OT already out there but I watched the PT in the theaters. And the fights were fast paced and captivating. Even though I know they are not realistic, I still enjoy them more than those from the OT.
Real fights are often based on a long observation phase, and often end fast. Not much to see for most of the viewers.

I really love Dooku's lightsaber. The curve is also supposed to help breaking locks earlier than expected, wich is used to explain why Obi was discarded quickly in ep2.

[SirLiftaLot]

To be fair, realistic fighting will be full of tension and thrilling to practisionners, but it won't hype people. I grew up with the OT already out there but I watched the PT in the theaters. And the fights were fast paced and captivating. Even though I know they are not realistic, I still enjoy them more than those from the OT.
Real fights are often based on a long observation phase, and often end fast. Not much to see for most of the viewers.

I really love Dooku's lightsaber. The curve is also supposed to help breaking locks earlier than expected, wich is used to explain why Obi was discarded quickly in ep2.

You raise good points. I think the Maul vs Ahsoka fight in Clone Wars was a great example of flashy, fast paced combat that still had a lot of weight behind it. That said, I still love the fights in the prequel trilogy, and I can totally understand why they are how they are. Because it’s great fun to watch, and shows their skill to watchers.

[DarthProdigal]

Stylistically, ever since I saw Count Dooku's lightsaber I always loved the design... It's aesthetically pleasing in some lightly menacing way and minorly exotic. I can't speak to it's actual practicality in use toward it's intended advantages, as I have not had the pleasure of using one to spar or train as of yet. I plan to own at least one more likely 2. And in SW possibly tending more toward Bane's lightsaber in ideology was part of the motivation? I'd back the lore research present though since it seems accurate... I never watched the CW source material, so I can't speak to that either. Maybe one day.

I find it ironic that the sport dueling leagues, competition sports, and styles mentioned by Darth Tepes are as he said, based on prior combat arts. It's like saying (in my mind anyway) "at what point does something cease to be real"? I know that the techniques are somewhat modified, and targets of intent are as well. The overall goal becoming scoring points quickly/efficiently (which is in line with the ideology of Makashi) but adding safety as a paramount concern. Though even in these practices people can become injured, even grievously. Armor does insulate, but does not guarantee safety or an opponent's blade landing where intended either. Unless one is "holding back" and not employing "full force" striking individuals can be bruised, toppled over, lightly-moderately concussed, or otherwise injured in moving/falling. Heck if 2 participants go at one another with "blood lust" or the ideology of "intent to kill" behind strikes, without actually guiding the blows to vital areas or getting around an opponents armor... even that is blurring the line between sport and combat in theory. I mean combatants used to wear armor, and use brute force to batter one another. So while true, these are safer versions of fighting, and most do not wish/attempt to engage at a borderline "real" level; it's hard to say groups of "combat zealots or heretics" don't practice these "sports". Perception is reality as they say.

Though I do not seek to undermine the fact that these are sport versions, that of course the underlying idea behind the choreography in SW was to look stunning and hit the opposite blade not the wielder, and that kendo is not kenjutsu. Those individuals trained extensively prior to or for their roles, so I admire their enthusiasm and dedication to do so. It's hard to say those who were not prior to did not wind up being Martial Artists (at least in spirit) by the end. While I may love landing those blows, it's not terrible that some only enjoy the act of "engaging in swordplay". Also, standard disclaimer of DONT GET CRAZY & TRY HURTING EACHOTHER children or novices... Gosh, feelin like Chef from south park momentarily by having to advise against rash action.

BUT to add a final note to the topic at hand, I feel like in the right hands a curved lightsaber could be used astoundingly. And I will relish the opportunity to be a set of such hands when the chance finally presents itself. Added possibilities and quick adaptations in a fight can make such a drastic difference that I can see the allure of such a weapon when most opponents would use single bladed traditional lightsabers or possibly a few Jar' Kai (dual wielders). I could see it being horrifying in the hands of a Master who is practiced in it's use and nuances.

P.S. Almost forgot that yeah FT hit the nail on the head for terror in putting a lightsaber in Bruce Lee's hands. I want to watch that Death Battle played out VS various Swordsmen/women from SW for sure... Yoda VS Bruce Lee, FIGHT! If only he had made it into the age of motion capture... talk about "end of game boss" status.

[Darth Tepes]

Anyone who has seen my discussions before on saber combat will undoubtedly have heard my thoughts before.  While true that a realistic duel more often than not isn't very exciting for combat laymen that doesn't mean it has to go to the opposite extreme.  Over rehearsed, flashy, cartoonish and emersion breaking "fights".  I myself had worked out a saber fight for a fan film many moons ago (that never got made and I will always be salty about it) that incorporated grounded fighting with the Force elements worked in and it worked splendid.  The best example currently comes from a damn video game.  The Fight between Malgus, Vindican, Satele and Kao Cen Darach was (so far) the best fight (imo) between Jedi and Sith ever shown.  The fantastical elements were there but the fight had weight and felt grounded.  You could tell how each person fought.  Malgus' power, Satele and Vindican utilized their double blades to work the off angles and Kao being a measured fighter.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm4JEZudf0c" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm4JEZudf0c</a>

[SirLiftaLot]

Anyone who has seen my discussions before on saber combat will undoubtedly have heard my thoughts before.  While true that a realistic duel more often than not isn't very exciting for combat laymen that doesn't mean it has to go to the opposite extreme.  Over rehearsed, flashy, cartoonish and emersion breaking "fights".  I myself had worked out a saber fight for a fan film many moons ago (that never got made and I will always be salty about it) that incorporated grounded fighting with the Force elements worked in and it worked splendid.  The best example currently comes from a damn video game.  The Fight between Malgus, Vindican, Satele and Kao Cen Darach was (so far) the best fight (imo) between Jedi and Sith ever shown.  The fantastical elements were there but the fight had weight and felt grounded.  You could tell how each person fought.  Malgus' power, Satele and Vindican utilized their double blades to work the off angles and Kao being a measured fighter.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm4JEZudf0c

I had not seen that fight in a while! It is great! Tons of style and acrobatics and flashiness, but not at the expense of weight. The blows there have impact behind them, and the acrobatics and extreme movements seem to illustrate how people augmenting their physical attributes and abilities with the force would fight. Acrobatics and athletic flair to further the combat, not at the expense of it. Here's a cool video showing what seems to be some of the motion capture for the fight:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGzRI15a_lM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGzRI15a_lM</a>

[DarthRondoudou]

Anyone who has seen my discussions before on saber combat will undoubtedly have heard my thoughts before.  While true that a realistic duel more often than not isn't very exciting for combat laymen that doesn't mean it has to go to the opposite extreme.  Over rehearsed, flashy, cartoonish and emersion breaking "fights".  I myself had worked out a saber fight for a fan film many moons ago (that never got made and I will always be salty about it) that incorporated grounded fighting with the Force elements worked in and it worked splendid.  The best example currently comes from a damn video game.  The Fight between Malgus, Vindican, Satele and Kao Cen Darach was (so far) the best fight (imo) between Jedi and Sith ever shown.  The fantastical elements were there but the fight had weight and felt grounded.  You could tell how each person fought.  Malgus' power, Satele and Vindican utilized their double blades to work the off angles and Kao being a measured fighter.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm4JEZudf0c

Yeah... I agree to some extent. I've seen a breakdown of ep1 fights that made my mini vomit in my mouth. It was so obvious they thought of style before realism. So ep 2 and 3 are still better for me.
And yeah, that fight was insane. I'd say it's probably easier to do a realistic acrobatic fight with animation rather than actors.

[For Tyeth]

P.S. Almost forgot that yeah FT hit the nail on the head for terror in putting a lightsaber in Bruce Lee's hands. I want to watch that Death Battle played out VS various Swordsmen/women from SW for sure... Yoda VS Bruce Lee, FIGHT! If only he had made it into the age of motion capture... talk about "end of game boss" status.

Shouldn't that be "talk about End of game the BIG BOSS"?