Dooku's Lightsaber

[DarthProdigal]

Shouldn't that be "talk about End of game the BIG BOSS"?

Lol that just makes me think about Metal Gear "Big Boss" with a lightsaber which is also in the "run away if you can" category... But yes all the terms would seem to apply to my initial statement, THE big bad, last level/hidden level boss, the expert fight, etc.

Forgive me for not having watched those fights, also a game I never had the opportunity to enjoy as of yet. That fight video comes from the MMO/online only one correct?

[Hulk10]

In legends though. Dooku's sheer skill with a lightsaber and his unique style make him rather arrogant so he looks down on those who use what are in his opinion, 'unrefined' techniques. And he was very competitive which was what led him to train so hard with Form II. He was perhaps the greatest duelist in the StarWars Universe of his time. And his emphasis on Form II led him to design his famous hilt. But apparently his master Yoda didn't approve of Dooku's hilt design.

[DarthRondoudou]

In legends though. Dooku's sheer skill with a lightsaber and his unique style make him rather arrogant so he looks down on those who use what are in his opinion, 'unrefined' techniques. And he was very competitive which was what led him to train so hard with Form II. He was perhaps the greatest duelist in the StarWars Universe of his time. And his emphasis on Form II led him to design his famous hilt. But apparently his master Yoda didn't approve of Dooku's hilt design.

To be fair, I can understand Yoda's stance on the matter. Sith were nowhere to be seen for a while. So focusing on saber combat and designing your lightsaber for that was... Kinda odd.

[DarthProdigal]

To be fair, I can understand Yoda's stance on the matter. Sith were nowhere to be seen for a while. So focusing on saber combat and designing your lightsaber for that was... Kinda odd.

I'll also agree, up to a point. It seems like you're doomsday prepping for a disaster that is supposedly extinct, so what conceivable options would that leave? Staging a coup, going rogue, turning on the Order to see if/who can stop you... all the options that'd be likely seem worse than the next, but fundamentally refining skills to such a pinnacle will eventually lead so a desire to test them in some manner. So it's reasonable he voiced his concerns since it was his student, and he was a cautious/perceptive one by nature anyway.

On the other side of things legends and even some movie references point out that some of the council were aware that there was growing issues in the galaxy. There were signals, disturbances in the Force, and bad omens that the Dark Side was rising. With hints or (outright confirmations in legends) issues hinting at Sith existence. They had their perceptions of the future blocked eventually, that itself should have been a red flag... So from this perspective it could be reasoned that Dooku was the one being cautious and prepared. In line with "if you want peace prepare for war" by assuming the war would never truly be considered concluded. And always keeping several trained and skilled dedicated Sith hunters being the logical choice. So even if it takes thousands of years, you still have those who keep their skills sharp and themselves ready for the unthinkable. Like a permanent backup plan. So for the arguably greatest duelist you have to always maintain a state of readiness, it may seem paranoid but better to be wrong and prepared than wrong and caught off guard completely. Especially if he's determined to follow the path of increasing skill and efficiency anyway... better to set him to a purpose or condone it within guidance than chastise him, prompting him do look unfavorably upon your wisdom and move further away from control/observation. Trust can blind so easily, but being so naïve borders on willful ignorance. It's like seeing a jr serial killer in the making and just punishing them and sending them to their room, as if everything is solved with condemnation. His skills and thoughts weren't going to diminish from a slap on the wrist. And his techniques and designs were effective, so acknowledgement of at least that much may have been warranted.

[DarthRondoudou]

I'll also agree, up to a point. It seems like you're doomsday prepping for a disaster that is supposedly extinct, so what conceivable options would that leave? Staging a coup, going rogue, turning on the Order to see if/who can stop you... all the options that'd be likely seem worse than the next, but fundamentally refining skills to such a pinnacle will eventually lead so a desire to test them in some manner. So it's reasonable he voiced his concerns since it was his student, and he was a cautious/perceptive one by nature anyway.

On the other side of things legends and even some movie references point out that some of the council were aware that there was growing issues in the galaxy. There were signals, disturbances in the Force, and bad omens that the Dark Side was rising. With hints or (outright confirmations in legends) issues hinting at Sith existence. They had their perceptions of the future blocked eventually, that itself should have been a red flag... So from this perspective it could be reasoned that Dooku was the one being cautious and prepared. In line with "if you want peace prepare for war" by assuming the war would never truly be considered concluded. And always keeping several trained and skilled dedicated Sith hunters being the logical choice. So even if it takes thousands of years, you still have those who keep their skills sharp and themselves ready for the unthinkable. Like a permanent backup plan. So for the arguably greatest duelist you have to always maintain a state of readiness, it may seem paranoid but better to be wrong and prepared than wrong and caught off guard completely. Especially if he's determined to follow the path of increasing skill and efficiency anyway... better to set him to a purpose or condone it within guidance than chastise him, prompting him do look unfavorably upon your wisdom and move further away from control/observation. Trust can blind so easily, but being so naïve borders on willful ignorance. It's like seeing a jr serial killer in the making and just punishing them and sending them to their room, as if everything is solved with condemnation. His skills and thoughts weren't going to diminish from a slap on the wrist. And his techniques and designs were effective, so acknowledgement of at least that much may have been warranted.

Exactly! Although I believe the council thought they were fully prepared to battle dark forces should they arrise. (They were wrong, judging by how easily Sidious dispatched 3 jedis in a 4 v 1). So, we do know Dooku was right to train for that.
BUT as you said, his training led him to the dark side. Both by feeling the council was letting him and the galaxy down, and the need to test himself.

[Hulk10]

Furthering one's skills is not the problem. The problem was more Dooku's own nature, his amoral world view, his anger and his arrogance. He was also sociopathic in his lack of regard for sentient life. So in Legends he was always at risk of falling to the Dark Side because he lacked compassion.

[Hulk10]

Furthering one's skills is not the problem. The problem was more Dooku's own nature, his amoral world view, his anger and his arrogance. He was also sociopathic in his lack of regard for sentient life.

[SirLiftaLot]

Furthering one's skills is not the problem. The problem was more Dooku's own nature, his amoral world view, his anger and his arrogance. He was also sociopathic in his lack of regard for sentient life. So in Legends he was always at risk of falling to the Dark Side because he lacked compassion.

I don't know if it is fair to say he totally lacked compassion, at least not before turning to the dark side. His sadness upon the death of Qui-Gon was a key moment in his turning to the dark side. That wasn't an action indicating a total lack of compassion. Perhaps a lack of compassion for strangers and those that he doesn't know or love though.

[DarthProdigal]

Exactly! Although I believe the council thought they were fully prepared to battle dark forces should they arrise. (They were wrong, judging by how easily Sidious dispatched 3 jedis in a 4 v 1). So, we do know Dooku was right to train for that.
BUT as you said, his training led him to the dark side. Both by feeling the council was letting him and the galaxy down, and the need to test himself.

Furthering one's skills is not the problem. The problem was more Dooku's own nature, his amoral world view, his anger and his arrogance. He was also sociopathic in his lack of regard for sentient life.

I don't know if it is fair to say he totally lacked compassion, at least not before turning to the dark side. His sadness upon the death of Qui-Gon was a key moment in his turning to the dark side. That wasn't an action indicating a total lack of compassion. Perhaps a lack of compassion for strangers and those that he doesn't know or love though.

I like the train of thought in many respects, and appreciate that you found merit in this as well Darth Rondoudou. I'm simply of the opinion that it is sometimes foolish to attempt to fight the ineveitable... Assuming the Sith would in one way or another return is the safest bet, and being wary it may be a "threat from within" as was shown in the past is of course disconcerting yet appropriate. So rather than seeking to "stop" this which seems fruitless since it just keeps happening, guide it instead. It's like many instances of parenting or dealing with wayward children. If they "want to" or are tending toward doing something, often "warning them off", punishing them, showing judgements, or denying them outright will have the opposite of the desired effect. Making it MORE tempting, likely, or through driving them away emotionally reinforce that "I'm not wrong, you're the one(s) that have the wrong viewpoint." So trying to stop the motion if an avalanche in progress seems futile, if the blade is being forged anyway then hone the edge for your purposes.

The military used to (and throughout the history of many countries like France) take those facing criminal charges, prison sentences, or showing a potential for violence and choose to "put them to better use" rather than attempt to reform them in therapeutic ways. Keep them under close guard and face them toward the enemy with purpose in essence. Also removing them from the greater influencing ability/potential damage within the society itself. (While I'm not encouraging this practice or condoning it in a real world sense so much as using the template as an example that in SW) Dooku obviously had it within him, and even his Master (who would arguably know him best) saw the signs. So rather than trying to redirect it completely, adjust the trajectory to make it more favorable. Something of use, utility, a sense of doing something with those talents possibly. It simultaneously validates his study, training, and designs into something to better serve the order in theory. Lightly reinforcing the views while guiding them and watching it closely... Bringing him and his efforts back into the fold rather than seemingly being of completely differing views that led to irreconcilable differences. I'm not saying there aren't ways this could have also failed spectacularly, but the "pat on the back" and showing him that his knowledge, skill, and lightsaber designs weren't going unacknowledged or to waste could have made the difference. And instead readied him to outright slay any Sith he'd encounter, almost brainwashing him lightly against them in ideology by making the purpose of all his training seem like it's "the fruits of your efforts shall be defeating them if they ever reemerge, and this will be your legacy if not in your lifetime."

He's already made the weapon, he's going to want to use it, so make him a potential asset instead of liability. That's my logic there in a nutshell.

[Hulk10]

I like the train of thought in many respects, and appreciate that you found merit in this as well Darth Rondoudou. I'm simply of the opinion that it is sometimes foolish to attempt to fight the ineveitable... Assuming the Sith would in one way or another return is the safest bet, and being wary it may be a "threat from within" as was shown in the past is of course disconcerting yet appropriate. So rather than seeking to "stop" this which seems fruitless since it just keeps happening, guide it instead. It's like many instances of parenting or dealing with wayward children. If they "want to" or are tending toward doing something, often "warning them off", punishing them, showing judgements, or denying them outright will have the opposite of the desired effect. Making it MORE tempting, likely, or through driving them away emotionally reinforce that "I'm not wrong, you're the one(s) that have the wrong viewpoint." So trying to stop the motion if an avalanche in progress seems futile, if the blade is being forged anyway then hone the edge for your purposes.

The military used to (and throughout the history of many countries like France) take those facing criminal charges, prison sentences, or showing a potential for violence and choose to "put them to better use" rather than attempt to reform them in therapeutic ways. Keep them under close guard and face them toward the enemy with purpose in essence. Also removing them from the greater influencing ability/potential damage within the society itself. (While I'm not encouraging this practice or condoning it in a real world sense so much as using the template as an example that in SW) Dooku obviously had it within him, and even his Master (who would arguably know him best) saw the signs. So rather than trying to redirect it completely, adjust the trajectory to make it more favorable. Something of use, utility, a sense of doing something with those talents possibly. It simultaneously validates his study, training, and designs into something to better serve the order in theory. Lightly reinforcing the views while guiding them and watching it closely... Bringing him and his efforts back into the fold rather than seemingly being of completely differing views that led to irreconcilable differences. I'm not saying there aren't ways this could have also failed spectacularly, but the "pat on the back" and showing him that his knowledge, skill, and lightsaber designs weren't going unacknowledged or to waste could have made the difference. And instead readied him to outright slay any Sith he'd encounter, almost brainwashing him lightly against them in ideology by making the purpose of all his training seem like it's "the fruits of your efforts shall be defeating them if they ever reemerge, and this will be your legacy if not in your lifetime."

He's already made the weapon, he's going to want to use it, so make him a potential asset instead of liability. That's my logic there in a nutshell.

Making use of talents is logical in some way but it does have the potential to backfire. But the Jedi dogma wouldn't allow such things. And that dogma is in part what doomed them. They didn't change at all. While the Sith changed.