Click here for lightsabers
  • Home
  • Help
  • Login
  • Register
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down
Author Topic: Ahsoka Series Discussion *SPOILERS*  (Read 5654 times)
Darth Logos
Sith Legend
Knight Commander
OVER 9000!!
*********

Force Alignment: -2772
Posts: 17215


Peace is a lie...


« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2024, 07:13:04 PM »

Ok, I agree with 1. But Baylan is just such a charismatic character that it was just a joy to watch his performance.
After some thought, I can concede that the characteristic does add to his mystique.

Quote
as for 2, I want to agree with you, but even within the movies, we have contradictions, going all the way back to ANH when Han is talking about needing to calculate the jump correctly (although he's talking about supernovas and such). But if you look at R1, we see several ships attempt to jump into hyperspace, but run into the recently emerged SD. Sticking with R1 for a second here, they jump from within the atmosphere of Jedha, which should cause all sorts of issues, but it didn't (maybe because the atmosphere was already messed up due to the DS test, and maybe it couldn't cause anything to happen to the planet itself because it was already so broken). And then we go to Rebels. I believe it's S5 that Hera jumps through a space station. And then in TLJ, the Holdo maneuver causes all sorts of devastation (as you mentioned), and was supposedly 1 in a million or something like that (though then shown not to be the case at the end of TROS 🤦🏼‍♂️). So it's hard to really know what would actually happen with that. But I think it's safe to say that it depends on how far away from the object you are when you initiate the jump. The closer it gets to hyperspace, the more damage it will do. Or something along those lines. Who really knows for certain.
I'm having a slightly hard time following. In ANH, Han is worried about literally flying through an object at light speed. Unlike the the Halo universe (and various other sci-fi), hyperspace in SW is not a different plane of existence, it's merely the view as you travel at the speed of light. I don't know where you get that the Holdo (Force I hate even saying the name) maneuver was a long shot. It was a one-way trip for sure, but not a long shot. And I did a bit of research; the Supremacy made the the Executor look tiny. (Which in and of itself is ridiculous because where tf is the ragtag FO getting all these resources to build their war machine?) I didn't remember the instances in R1, but they shouldn't have been able to. Atmospheric friction should have ripped the ship apart. And any reference to erratically jumping to HS should just be scrubbed because anything less than what Han did in ANH is Russian roulette that you'll make it to your destination. As for TROS (read: TRASH Roll Eyes) I assume you're talking about <UGH> lightspeed skipping? That was a bad plot point to reinforce an even worse plot point. You can't track a jump without a tracker. So the TIEs wouldn't be able to follow the Falcon. More to the point, all of these examples are from standard jumps. The jump in question is intergalactic (planetary); meaning it has to have way more push to make the distance. And considering the way that Morgan ordered the jump despite the numerous obstruction.....she was counting on the shock of the launch to annihilate the NR ships.

Quote
Alright, now to the good stuff!
Yes, Anakin. All the Anakin. Just utter perfection. The lightsaber truly looks like it belongs to him, and that he's been wielding it all his life. TCW flashbacks were utterly brilliant (no surprise), and young Ahsoka was perfect (far better than Rosario has ever been). And it absolutely is the nuanced performance of Anakin that we've been looking for. I always knew Hayden was great as Anakin. I'm just glad everyone else can see it now too. But also if you watch the BTS stuff about this show, Hayden is heavily involved in the process of bringing Anakin to life. And the way he thinks about the roll and the suggestions he has, it's abundantly clear that he knows this character (and how Lucas wanted him to be) so well. It's just great to see.
Hayden's post-Anakin work surprised many. It was the end-all-be-all argument that a good actor cannot trump bad direction. And as has been said before: if you want to know what he was actually able to bring to the character, pay attention to his unspoken lines; particularly when Anakin is very troubled or hurting.

I think you appreciated young Ahsoka more than you're letting on. The version that was still hopeful; that hadn't been jaded by a literal lifetime of fighting. Name one period of Ahsoka's life (pre-Anakin excluded) that she wasn't in the thick of it. That kind of life is going to result in the type of person that Rosario is depicting. (IMO)

Quote
As for the unsettling nature of the Lekku without the foreheadlace, yeah, that was weird. Didn't like it, and didn't need to see it. But you are right in that it makes sense design-wise. I do believe that we have seen examples once or twice of other Togruta withought the thing though. Tales of the Jedi, maybe, and maybe even TCW once.
I like when lekku go smooth.
Logged

Sig by For Tyeth
...the Force shall set me free.

Arsenal: (* w/ sound)
Scorpion*(BR)  Emerald Mantis CE* Chosen One*(BR)  Shock LE*(FO)  Archon V2.1*(CG)  Dk Prophecy(BR){Thanks Qui-Lar}  Menace CE staff*(BH) Flamberge CE*(BR)  Initiate LE V2(BR)
Dk Initiate V3(CG)  Manticore CE*(SY)  Dominix LE V3(AB)  Bellicose*(GB)  Dk Arbiter*(VA)  Dominix V4(BR)  Emperor's Hand*(DVA)  Aeon V4(GB)  Dk Initiate V4 (HP)  Project:BOOYA!

Taegin Roan
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: 2066
Posts: 6256


Lord of the Force


« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2024, 08:33:05 PM »

I'm having a slightly hard time following. In ANH, Han is worried about literally flying through an object at light speed. Unlike the the Halo universe (and various other sci-fi), hyperspace in SW is not a different plane of existence, it's merely the view as you travel at the speed of light. I don't know where you get that the Holdo (Force I hate even saying the name) maneuver was a long shot. It was a one-way trip for sure, but not a long shot. And I did a bit of research; the Supremacy made the the Executor look tiny. (Which in and of itself is ridiculous because where tf is the ragtag FO getting all these resources to build their war machine?) I didn't remember the instances in R1, but they shouldn't have been able to. Atmospheric friction should have ripped the ship apart. And any reference to erratically jumping to HS should just be scrubbed because anything less than what Han did in ANH is Russian roulette that you'll make it to your destination. As for TROS (read: TRASH Roll Eyes) I assume you're talking about <UGH> lightspeed skipping? That was a bad plot point to reinforce an even worse plot point. You can't track a jump without a tracker. So the TIEs wouldn't be able to follow the Falcon. More to the point, all of these examples are from standard jumps. The jump in question is intergalactic (planetary); meaning it has to have way more push to make the distance. And considering the way that Morgan ordered the jump despite the numerous obstruction.....she was counting on the shock of the launch to annihilate the NR ships.

Oh, I forgot about the lightspeed skipping thing. 🤦🏼‍♂️
I think it's in TROS that Poe says something about how the Holdo Maneuver was not likely to work again. But rewatch R1, because it was calculated, just very dangerous. I have so many issues with the Sequels, so not going to rehash that here and now. But suffice it to say, there's enough evidence from various movies and shows to show that the whole Lightspeed thing doesn't quite have any set rules.

Hayden's post-Anakin work surprised many. It was the end-all-be-all argument that a good actor cannot trump bad direction. And as has been said before: if you want to know what he was actually able to bring to the character, pay attention to his unspoken lines; particularly when Anakin is very troubled or hurting.

I'll freely admit that I don't think I've ever watched something else with Hayden in it. But I've always appreciated his performance as Anakin, even if it was a little rough at times. And that's only grown as I've continued studying acting and filmmaking.

I think you appreciated young Ahsoka more than you're letting on. The version that was still hopeful; that hadn't been jaded by a literal lifetime of fighting. Name one period of Ahsoka's life (pre-Anakin excluded) that she wasn't in the thick of it. That kind of life is going to result in the type of person that Rosario is depicting. (IMO)

I don't think I can appreciate Young Ahsoka anymore than I do. Animated, or Live-Action. But Old Ahsoka (Rosario's) doesn't work for me at all. There's times where I don't hate what she's doing, but most the time, I feel like even for an older, more jaded and hardened Ahsoka, the way she's playing her doesn't make sense. It's not just hard, it's just straight up bland. And it's not that I dislike Rosario. I think she's great it other things. I've just never seen Ahsoka past the Rosario. If you go back and read my comments when I was watching the show the first time, and I explain my thoughts a bit clearer.

EDIT:
So how are we all feeling? Since we first found out that Ahsoka was going to be played in Live-Action by Rosario Dawson it's been my opinion that she's not the perfect choice for Ahsoka. I was willing to give her a chance though, because she's a great actress. However, after seeing her in Mando and Boba, and now the first 2 episodes of Ahsoka, I'm still not convinced. Part of the issue is I don't see Ahsoka, I see Rosario. The other part is that I currently see her trying to act like how she thinks Ahsoka should act, and not truly, fully, embodying Ahsoka. That could come with more time spent as the character though.

However, even with that, I'm able to listen to the words she's actually saying, and see that yes, the writing is that of Ahsoka. If Ashley Eckstein was saying these words, I would believe that it was Ahsoka. So at the moment, I can't criticize that area of the writing.
^^^ Here is the start of the conversation (first post in the thread).
Logged

"I am the Outcast's Shadow" - Taegin Roan
"Confronting fear is the Destiny of a Jedi" - Luke Skywalker
"So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause." - Padmé Amidala

Darth Logos
Sith Legend
Knight Commander
OVER 9000!!
*********

Force Alignment: -2772
Posts: 17215


Peace is a lie...


« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2024, 03:40:27 PM »

Oh, I forgot about the lightspeed skipping thing. 🤦🏼‍♂️
I think it's in TROS that Poe says something about how the Holdo Maneuver was not likely to work again. But rewatch R1, because it was calculated, just very dangerous. I have so many issues with the Sequels, so not going to rehash that here and now. But suffice it to say, there's enough evidence from various movies and shows to show that the whole Lightspeed thing doesn't quite have any set rules.
Well Poe was an idiot written by a bigger idiot. I think the bigger reason most jumps take place out of atmo is because it offers a greater panorama of trajectories. Theoretically, shields might be able to negate the effects of atmospheric friction considering that there are very few examples of things burning up during reentry in SW. In ESB, the probe droid pods most likely weren't shielded because they are disposable. And in ROTS, the Invisible Hand was beyond wrecked......however I don't think the ship was critically damaged before reentry Undecided. Unless Grievous shut down the shields and locked them before setting a collision course. IDK.

Quote
I'll freely admit that I don't think I've ever watched something else with Hayden in it. But I've always appreciated his performance as Anakin, even if it was a little rough at times. And that's only grown as I've continued studying acting and filmmaking.
I've seen a couple of things with him in it, but I can't remember them well enough to comment on his performance, beyond that he's not bad.

Quote
I don't think I can appreciate Young Ahsoka anymore than I do. Animated, or Live-Action. But Old Ahsoka (Rosario's) doesn't work for me at all. There's times where I don't hate what she's doing, but most the time, I feel like even for an older, more jaded and hardened Ahsoka, the way she's playing her doesn't make sense. It's not just hard, it's just straight up bland. And it's not that I dislike Rosario. I think she's great it other things. I've just never seen Ahsoka past the Rosario. If you go back and read my comments when I was watching the show the first time, and I explain my thoughts a bit clearer.
And that's fine. One thing that I hate about how they do her and young Luke post-Empire is that all of a sudden they're all calm and sagely as "masters". I think teachers would be more to the point, but regardless, their personalities just kinda dried up when they take on the role. Unlike Luke though, Ahsoka I think has had far more dealings with seedy characters and has learned just to stay cool and collected. She may have also heeded the anti-lesson of Anakin and not prone to show her emotions.
Logged

Sig by For Tyeth
...the Force shall set me free.

Arsenal: (* w/ sound)
Scorpion*(BR)  Emerald Mantis CE* Chosen One*(BR)  Shock LE*(FO)  Archon V2.1*(CG)  Dk Prophecy(BR){Thanks Qui-Lar}  Menace CE staff*(BH) Flamberge CE*(BR)  Initiate LE V2(BR)
Dk Initiate V3(CG)  Manticore CE*(SY)  Dominix LE V3(AB)  Bellicose*(GB)  Dk Arbiter*(VA)  Dominix V4(BR)  Emperor's Hand*(DVA)  Aeon V4(GB)  Dk Initiate V4 (HP)  Project:BOOYA!

Taegin Roan
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: 2066
Posts: 6256


Lord of the Force


« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2024, 11:09:48 PM »

And that's fine. One thing that I hate about how they do her and young Luke post-Empire is that all of a sudden they're all calm and sagely as "masters". I think teachers would be more to the point, but regardless, their personalities just kinda dried up when they take on the role. Unlike Luke though, Ahsoka I think has had far more dealings with seedy characters and has learned just to stay cool and collected. She may have also heeded the anti-lesson of Anakin and not prone to show her emotions.

In case it wasn't clear, I'm saying that Ahsoka (animated, and live-action young) is one of my favorite characters of all time. Probably #2 in Star Wars. 👍🏻
Logged

"I am the Outcast's Shadow" - Taegin Roan
"Confronting fear is the Destiny of a Jedi" - Luke Skywalker
"So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause." - Padmé Amidala

Darth Logos
Sith Legend
Knight Commander
OVER 9000!!
*********

Force Alignment: -2772
Posts: 17215


Peace is a lie...


« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2024, 02:17:55 PM »

In case it wasn't clear, I'm saying that Ahsoka (animated, and live-action young) is one of my favorite characters of all time. Probably #2 in Star Wars. 👍🏻
She is something. But that is because they gave her actual character growth. We literally got to see her grow up over 7 seasons of TCW, and they did it exceptionally well. So yeah, what's not to get attached to? However, there was a large divide between that character and what we got in SWR. Which then goes back to what I said about so many years in conflict jading her. Case in point, I always thought Vader was a great villain from just the OT. But I have to admit, despite pushing bull$#!% crystal canon and dumbass Force ideals, the Vader comics, and subsequently changes to the character in the DC productions......not gonna lie, they've been an improvement. Anakin was a textbook example of a closet rageaholic, but Vader from the OT was very calm and measured; which does kinda add to his sinister nature. But this newer nuance that his rage is always ready to boiler over lends itself to a better yin-yang dynamic between him and the emperor. But I digress, we can all agree the little Ani sucked.
Logged

Sig by For Tyeth
...the Force shall set me free.

Arsenal: (* w/ sound)
Scorpion*(BR)  Emerald Mantis CE* Chosen One*(BR)  Shock LE*(FO)  Archon V2.1*(CG)  Dk Prophecy(BR){Thanks Qui-Lar}  Menace CE staff*(BH) Flamberge CE*(BR)  Initiate LE V2(BR)
Dk Initiate V3(CG)  Manticore CE*(SY)  Dominix LE V3(AB)  Bellicose*(GB)  Dk Arbiter*(VA)  Dominix V4(BR)  Emperor's Hand*(DVA)  Aeon V4(GB)  Dk Initiate V4 (HP)  Project:BOOYA!

Darth Logos
Sith Legend
Knight Commander
OVER 9000!!
*********

Force Alignment: -2772
Posts: 17215


Peace is a lie...


« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2024, 02:24:21 PM »

Ep. 6 pros/cons: (Take 2, because the site crashed and lost my last review. Fortunately I still have my notes.)

1.) Such a nice beginning to Huyang's story. Usually I am fervently opposed to such reckless and blatant use of nostalgic kitsch......but this was well placed and used. <golf clap>
2.) Awesome work on the galactic reentry. Though it does raise the question how you slow an object moving so fast without crashing into something. #ThingsthatmakeyougoHmmmm
3.) Ok, the Dathomiri came from Peridea in Galaxy X, and the purrgil "come to Peridea to die", then how did they get over to Galaxy 1? (I use X and 1 since intergalactic travel has only rarely been achieved, and name's are usually not given.....like Milky Way Roll Eyes)
4.) How the hell does Baylan know every "left out" detail in any conversation? It's been kind of a major irk since the beginning of the series.
5.) Seeing the Sisters move in unison really ups the creep factor. Nice nails btw.
6.) The Sisters said Sabine "wreaked of Jedi." Are we to infer that they know what a Jedi from dealing with Ezra? Cuz these biddies come from a galaxy devoid of Jedi. Or am I completely mistaken about their origins?
7.) I completely forgot that the purrgil took the SD at the end of SWR. (Rewatched on YT.) But HOW did anyone survive on that bridge with the busted windows? I can only assume that it's in such rough shape because it wasn't designed to deal with the stresses of intergalactic travel.
8.) WTELF is with the trooper armor? Is the red ribbon supposed to be some sorta show of loyalty to the Sisters? The troopers should be loyal to Thrawn only, and his word would then be good enough for the Sisters. DUMB!
9.) No instructions how to ride the dog except "lay down"? Really? I guess 'hyah!' is a universal for any mount. Undecided
10.) The dog scene was cute but dumb. She's all pissy cuz she lost her scanner, but all of her other gear (probably including water and rations) is on the dog, and she wants it to go? Dumb.
11.) Not entirely sure how I feel about Ezra's friends.
Logged

Sig by For Tyeth
...the Force shall set me free.

Arsenal: (* w/ sound)
Scorpion*(BR)  Emerald Mantis CE* Chosen One*(BR)  Shock LE*(FO)  Archon V2.1*(CG)  Dk Prophecy(BR){Thanks Qui-Lar}  Menace CE staff*(BH) Flamberge CE*(BR)  Initiate LE V2(BR)
Dk Initiate V3(CG)  Manticore CE*(SY)  Dominix LE V3(AB)  Bellicose*(GB)  Dk Arbiter*(VA)  Dominix V4(BR)  Emperor's Hand*(DVA)  Aeon V4(GB)  Dk Initiate V4 (HP)  Project:BOOYA!

Taegin Roan
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: 2066
Posts: 6256


Lord of the Force


« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2024, 04:46:35 PM »

Not gonna repost my reply, because I don't remember what I said.😅
Logged

"I am the Outcast's Shadow" - Taegin Roan
"Confronting fear is the Destiny of a Jedi" - Luke Skywalker
"So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause." - Padmé Amidala

Darth Logos
Sith Legend
Knight Commander
OVER 9000!!
*********

Force Alignment: -2772
Posts: 17215


Peace is a lie...


« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2024, 05:17:36 PM »

I only did it so there wouldn't be a gap in my reviews.
Logged

Sig by For Tyeth
...the Force shall set me free.

Arsenal: (* w/ sound)
Scorpion*(BR)  Emerald Mantis CE* Chosen One*(BR)  Shock LE*(FO)  Archon V2.1*(CG)  Dk Prophecy(BR){Thanks Qui-Lar}  Menace CE staff*(BH) Flamberge CE*(BR)  Initiate LE V2(BR)
Dk Initiate V3(CG)  Manticore CE*(SY)  Dominix LE V3(AB)  Bellicose*(GB)  Dk Arbiter*(VA)  Dominix V4(BR)  Emperor's Hand*(DVA)  Aeon V4(GB)  Dk Initiate V4 (HP)  Project:BOOYA!

Darth Logos
Sith Legend
Knight Commander
OVER 9000!!
*********

Force Alignment: -2772
Posts: 17215


Peace is a lie...


« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2024, 07:18:50 PM »

Ep. 7 pros/cons:

1.) Ok, that senator has the punch-face. Seriously needs some back handing to put him in his place. I'm a bit surprised Hera didn't simply hit him with "Do you have any military experience fighting Thrawn? 'Cause I have more than I want. And any leads that indicate his possible return should indicate a credible threat."
2.) Ugh! 3PO. But I have to admit it was good to hear him try to pull off Obi Wan; "You don't need to see my identifiation."\
3.) And the most UGH! I HAAAAAAAATTTTTTEEEEEEE the NR security uniforms. They are just so 1970's B-rated sci-fi bad fugly.
4.) Why all of a sudden is Ahsoka running short blades on both sabers? I sincerely doubt that she just randomly decided to go double shoto, Unless it just makes it easier not to slice up the ship while running drills. Undecided
5.) HOLY FRIKKIN MINE FIELD!!!!!!!!!! It was beautiful to see, but not believable. The combined weight of that much ordinance would most likely rival the tonnage of the SD itself. But my OCD is telling me to shut up and enjoy the precision of that grid spacing. Grin Grin Grin "Un ne passe pas."
6.) They did a fantastic job casting Ezra. Not only the look, but the voice as well. The only thing I'm not sold on is the curly hair. He always had straight hair in SWR. Beyond that, it is a pure case of life imitating art.
7.) Now comes the chase......WTF? I'm sorry, I know it's the American way not to hurt dogs, but if they're carrying the guys who want to kill you, YOU SHOOT THE DOGS.
8.) UGH! I have not missed those ugly troop carriers. Just....<barf>
9.) It was kinda neat seeing Ezra be a Force monk. (No saber required.) I haven't seen something like this since Windu stoop alone in the Clone Wars microseries. But again...........LEAVE OUT THE @#$%ING SABER BLOCK. So tired of seeing that lame manuever.
Logged

Sig by For Tyeth
...the Force shall set me free.

Arsenal: (* w/ sound)
Scorpion*(BR)  Emerald Mantis CE* Chosen One*(BR)  Shock LE*(FO)  Archon V2.1*(CG)  Dk Prophecy(BR){Thanks Qui-Lar}  Menace CE staff*(BH) Flamberge CE*(BR)  Initiate LE V2(BR)
Dk Initiate V3(CG)  Manticore CE*(SY)  Dominix LE V3(AB)  Bellicose*(GB)  Dk Arbiter*(VA)  Dominix V4(BR)  Emperor's Hand*(DVA)  Aeon V4(GB)  Dk Initiate V4 (HP)  Project:BOOYA!

Darth Logos
Sith Legend
Knight Commander
OVER 9000!!
*********

Force Alignment: -2772
Posts: 17215


Peace is a lie...


« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2024, 02:26:17 PM »

Ep.8 pros/cons:

Alright let's wrap this up with a bow till next season.

1.) I loved the title of this episode: "The Jedi, the Witch, and the Warlord." It's a clear homage to The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. Classy and clever.
2.) The Nightsister ritual in Morgan's ascension was pretty cool. Great use of effects.
3.) The TIEs immediately taking off after.....DUMB! There's a frikkin tower parked in the middle of the docking bay. And let's face it, TIE pilots in tight spaces are about as reliable as stormtroopers at long range.
4.) I would say it's nice to see that the competence of the pre-rebellion era imps remains consistent in exile, but.......I hated the incompetence of the imps in SWR.
5.) OK, so now zombie troopers is a thing......again. Kinda cool, and a sound tactic. However, if Disney would just use a saber properly, ZOMBIES WOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM. Angry
6.) I'm gonna go ahead and call BIG BS. It defied belief, in the last episode, that they were able to deploy a (beautiful) mine field that should have taken days, if not weeks, in what seems like a few hours. But then, in an even shorter amount of time, the system is completely cleaned up just in time for the SD to get gone.
7.) I did like that they finally explained why Morgan's intergalactic "ship" was so enigmatically large: it's a hyperspace ring for a SD. This really tickled my engineering bones. Not entirely sold that this was structurally sound, but......I'll allow it.
8.) Way to phone it in Force-wise. Sabine made one Force pull and now she has full confidence in her tk.
9.) What a lame ending. No Ezra saving the day by stealing the ship. No explanation of what the "cargo" was. (I believe it is a great number of Nightsisters in stasis, waiting to unleash a reign of chaotic terror the likes of which the Empire could never match. But Disney ain't that malevolently creative.) No explanation of what Baylan was trying to accomplish (and now Ray's passed. Cry) No explanation of where tf Shin is going? NOTHING!!!!!!! Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry

But I said I was going to wrap this up with a bow.

10.) Can we just take a moment and appreciate how good those Mando pants make Sabine's butt look? Grin Grin Grin Well done wardrobe dept. <golf clap>
Logged

Sig by For Tyeth
...the Force shall set me free.

Arsenal: (* w/ sound)
Scorpion*(BR)  Emerald Mantis CE* Chosen One*(BR)  Shock LE*(FO)  Archon V2.1*(CG)  Dk Prophecy(BR){Thanks Qui-Lar}  Menace CE staff*(BH) Flamberge CE*(BR)  Initiate LE V2(BR)
Dk Initiate V3(CG)  Manticore CE*(SY)  Dominix LE V3(AB)  Bellicose*(GB)  Dk Arbiter*(VA)  Dominix V4(BR)  Emperor's Hand*(DVA)  Aeon V4(GB)  Dk Initiate V4 (HP)  Project:BOOYA!

Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up
Send this topic | Print
Jump to: