Fencing (and Makashi) concepts

[Master Nero Attoru]

Hello Saberforum!

This was something I had intended to do for a while now, especially once I was appointed Resident Master.  You see, while I have indeed been fencing a long time, I consider this position to be a great honor... one which I seek to live up to.  As such, I want to contribute in whatever way I can to discussion about LED lightsaber combat.

In order to do this, I decided to start with what I know best - fencing.  From here I can show the basics, then move onto how they are applied in lightsaber combat (most notably in Form II: Makashi).  So here we go!

For those of you without knowledge of fencing, there are three weapons - foil, epee, and saber.  Each weapon has a different construction as well as different target area.  Foil (which is my specialty) has the thinnest, lightest blade.  Touches are scored with the tip of the weapon only (no cutting), and target area includes only the torso.  Epee has a much thicker blade, with a triangular cross section.  In addition, the hand guard (called a bell guard) is much more prominent, which has to do with target area.  You see, target area for epee is the entire body... from your head to your toes.  As with foil, however, touches can only be scored with the tip.  Finally, we have saber... which is popular due to its ability to cut as well as its aggressive nature.  Target area for this weapon includes everything from the waist up.

To help you visualize these ideas, here's a pic I found:



As you can imagine, the differing target areas results in a much different style of combat for each weapon.  In general, epee is the most careful and controlled, with saber being the most "fast and furious".  Foil lies somewhere in between.

Of course lightsaber combat is rather different - a combination of all these different concepts.  As with real combat, no area is safe... so target area is much like epee.  However, cutting with the blade is possible, so there is some similarity with saber.  So how does one pull all these ideas together?

Let's start with target zones.  Being a foil guy, I'll just use my own as a base to work off of.



As you can see, there are four main target areas in foil, covering the torso.  Upper right chest, lower right chest, upper left chest, lower left chest.  As such, there are parries to cover attacks to each of these areas (in fact there are multiple for each zone!).

Here is where I (finally) bring it back to lightsaber combat - by expanding these target areas to the whole body.  As some of you undoubtedly were thinking, foil target area doesn't doo much good when the whole body is fair game... which I answer with simple extraplolation!  Rather than covering merely the right upper chest, think of the parry as protecting the right upper body, and make it larger if needed.  In fact, this image pretty accurately describes the ideas I'm talking about:



As you can see, one additional detail is the head - which I answer by adding in the high parry used in saber fencing (parry 5, or 6).  This results in five main target areas to defend or attack.

Anyway, I do hope this helps some of you, especially those interested in Makashi.  If you have any questions please feel free to let me know, and certainly tell me if there's anything else you'd like to see.  There will definitely be more to come!

[Darth Nonymous]

Very nice. And Well needed, there is lots of talk about fencing concepts in this community but no one ever takes the time to expand on them to further understanding.

Looking at your target zones, the obvious similarities lead me to  believe this may be the true origin of the Cannon target zones and Marks of Contact. The most interesting thing, which has always confused me, is that the sword arm is the only real limb that is targeted, just as it is in the MoC.

In the Chinese system we do it a bit differently so that definitely clears some concepts up for me as I am looking at this. Kudos!

[Master Nero Attoru]

Very nice. And Well needed, there is lots of talk about fencing concepts in this community but no one ever takes the time to expand on them to further understanding.

Looking at your target zones, the obvious similarities lead me to  believe this may be the true origin of the Cannon target zones and Marks of Contact. The most interesting thing, which has always confused me, is that the sword arm is the only real limb that is targeted, just as it is in the MoC.

In the Chinese system we do it a bit differently so that definitely clears some concepts up for me as I am looking at this. Kudos!

Thanks!  That's totally what I was hoping to do, give a bit more in depth look at how I apply my fencing knowledge to lightsaber combat.  That way any fellow fencers can perhaps pick up some ideas, while people without sword training can get an idea of how a real world style of swordplay is translated into this fictional setting.  I find it actually works quite well.

My only question to you is concerning your comment about the arm being targeted.  Personally, I target the most exposed areas, which effectively translates to whichever side is closer to me.  While the sword arm is the obvious example of it (especially when the opponent is attacking), I also find it quite beneficial to target the front leg.  Of course, this is presuming a non-squared stance, which may be different in the Chinese martial arts you practice.  I'm interested to discuss these differences though!

[Veldryne]

Great post Master Nero, this should definately help any makashi users out there, I know you dont have time to do tons of videos, but posts like this I think are going to go a long way.

Not that you need them, but more points added.

[Darth Nonymous]

Thanks!  That's totally what I was hoping to do, give a bit more in depth look at how I apply my fencing knowledge to lightsaber combat.  That way any fellow fencers can perhaps pick up some ideas, while people without sword training can get an idea of how a real world style of swordplay is translated into this fictional setting.  I find it actually works quite well.

My only question to you is concerning your comment about the arm being targeted.  Personally, I target the most exposed areas, which effectively translates to whichever side is closer to me.  While the sword arm is the obvious example of it (especially when the opponent is attacking), I also find it quite beneficial to target the front leg.  Of course, this is presuming a non-squared stance, which may be different in the Chinese martial arts you practice.  I'm interested to discuss these differences though!

What I meant was in your target areas the sword arm is highlighted. While I understand in the other events target areas are expanded, and during free play anything goes, but I was talking formally.

The front leg is of course the favorite target, and one of the most difficult to score without being brained but it will totally disable the threat.

We do not differentiate between weapon arm and non weapon arm in Chinese sword. We do concentrate on the weapon(disarms etc.), but when targeting we use a system of quadrants we call "men" or doors. When you open one door another closes and vise versa, you try to attack open doors or height to closed doors to prompt an opening. Combinations are usually thought to be ways of getting certain doors to open while keeping yours closed or inaccessible.

The single joan is very close to fencing, historical as there are no constraints on techniques for scoring, and the body position is the same. Turn so you are small a target as possible and keep your weapon between you and our opponent. The square turn usually only comes into play during a stab through someone rather than a lunge which is almost identical to western fencing "ballestra".

[Master Nero Attoru]

Very interesting, Master Nonymous.  I can see how this "door" concept has some parallels with fencing as well - our target lines work much the same way.  The standard en garde position has the fencer closing off six line, or the upper chest closer to the sword arm.  In parrying to another line, you open up another line, allowing for a great deal of deception in attacks.  It's the part of the sport where strategy comes greatly into play - using feints and what we call disengages to score touches.

[Master Rel]

Very nice start to a quality thread!

The static display with explanations goes far for me as well as others I am sure.  Videos are great but the displayed page can offer a bit of focus lost to the movement/music/etc.

Good stuff...looking forward to seeing more.

Inspires one to consider the other techniques 

[Master Lucien Kane]

wonderful information and illustrations.

[Master Nero Attoru]

Thanks guys.  I'm a visual learner myself, so I appreciate the value of a good illustration in teaching these kinds of concepts.  You can explain it all day long to me... or you can just show me a pic lol

One more idea for now, specifically concerning parries.  The idea with this particular style is smaller circlular parries out in front of you, keeping the point in the general direction of your opponent.  In fencing this is an important concept, as it allows for better precision (since the tip remains close to the target) as well as speed (as you have less distance to travel to the target).  Both are extremely important concepts in such a sport, and they do carry over here as well.  The best way to achieve this is to use as much of the fingers and wrist as possible, rather than the arm.

Of course, I'll continue to update this as I think of things to express... and as a matter of fact I have a video to post, that I'll have to get from Artorius next time I get a chance...

[Darth Nonymous]

Very interesting, Master Nonymous.  I can see how this "door" concept has some parallels with fencing as well - our target lines work much the same way.  The standard en garde position has the fencer closing off six line, or the upper chest closer to the sword arm.  In parrying to another line, you open up another line, allowing for a great deal of deception in attacks.  It's the part of the sport where strategy comes greatly into play - using feints and what we call disengages to score touches.

See?  This is what I mean by in the end, all weapon systems are universal. I think it's because of the interaction with the physics of the weapon and our own body mechanics that limit the number of useful combinations. Terminology is the different, but a thrust based hilt weapon is not that much different between say, Italy, China, or Bali.

One more idea for now, specifically concerning parries.  The idea with this particular style is smaller circlular parries out in front of you, keeping the point in the general direction of your opponent.  In fencing this is an important concept, as it allows for better precision (since the tip remains close to the target) as well as speed (as you have less distance to travel to the target).  Both are extremely important concepts in such a sport, and they do carry over here as well.  The best way to achieve this is to use as much of the fingers and wrist as possible, rather than the arm.

I would like to highlight this for all the Makashi aspirants out there. This is a KEY concept that cannot be understated. Keeping the tip pointed toward you opponent is critical for a thrust dominant style. All the reason above are true, but here are other advantages when you remove it from the sporting arena.

In the stye of Wudang Jian that I practice and teach, this concept is called "Three rings encircle the moon". The three rings are the tip, the blade (somewhere on the body) and the hilt. Each one represents one level of engagement with the opponents weapon. The closest Western an along I have to this is the Italian Debile, Mezzo, and Forte use. Keeping these rings in line is the way we train this concept. The idea is that the opponent must always be force to pass your tip first. This allows you to change the angle of the blade to redirect the incoming attack with very little motion, like a wedge. We also learn to wield the sword from each of these three rings. Keeping the tip in the opponents face is a great distraction and psychological effect especially with lightsabers! A nice bright light in their eyes.

The technique you mention  Nero, about keeping the work in the hand, for us, is the 3rd ring or wielding it close to the hilt. This gives extremely fast flicking strikes and parries, as well as intimidation moves. It moves the blade the most amount of area for the amount of movement you produced in the wrist or hand. (one little caveat: if you have trouble with this and are getting pain in the wrist or hand from it, work on strengthening the grip, wrist and shoulder rather than trying to increase flexibility. You want good strength, which will give you good range of motion.)

I would say as for a principle of Makashi "Keep the tip pointed toward your opponent" is a sound axiom. 

[BenPass]

This is a wonderful tool Master Nero! I've been wanting to learn some fencing and Makashi since you always say that they're so closely related and this really helps! I'm definitely going to try this next time I'm sparring.

[KashiAtaru]

Great job Nero! I love the comparisons and info! Definitely be sharing this with others.-Kashi

[Master Artorius Vidnyl]

Love it man. I have to get that video off my phone so you can throw a link up!

[Master VorNach]

Master Nero,
Thank you for bringing this great collection of material to the forum.
The first sword I picked up (aside from the tree branches my brothers and I used to play "knights in armor" and tried to hit each other with as children) was the fencing foil in high school. I have done very little sport fencing since college but reading over what you have presented here really highlights just how much that early training has influenced much of what I do even to this day.

An old quote that seems quite appropriate at this time: "...an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
I don't know about a more civilized age but elegance is certainly a term that can be applied to the art of fencing and can easily transfer over to lightsaber play.

...keeping the point in the general direction of your opponent.  In fencing this is an important concept, as it allows for better precision (since the tip remains close to the target) as well as speed (as you have less distance to travel to the target).

Of course it's almost impossible for me to post without mentioning the longsword but in those teachings it is also a common practice to keep your point in line with your opponent to maintain the threat and encourage them to not charge in on you.


I found these images to add some additional visualization to the topic.
If you look at the differences in blade position between, for example, tierce (3rd) and quarte (4th) the concept of the open and closed lines or doors that Masters Nero and Nonymous have been discussing start to become more apparent.


and the concept is really visible here if you look at what happens when the guard moves between 3rd and 4th.

[KashiAtaru]

Master Nero,
Thank you for bringing this great collection of material to the forum.
The first sword I picked up (aside from the tree branches my brothers and I used to play "knights in armor" and tried to hit each other with as children) was the fencing foil in high school. I have done very little sport fencing since college but reading over what you have presented here really highlights just how much that early training has influenced much of what I do even to this day.

An old quote that seems quite appropriate at this time: "...an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
I don't know about a more civilized age but elegance is certainly a term that can be applied to the art of fencing and can easily transfer over to lightsaber play.

 Of course it's almost impossible for me to post without mentioning the longsword but in those teachings it is also a common practice to keep your point in line with your opponent to maintain the threat and encourage them to not charge in on you.


I found these images to add some additional visualization to the topic.
If you look at the differences in blade position between, for example, tierce (3rd) and quarte (4th) the concept of the open and closed lines or doors that Masters Nero and Nonymous have been discussing start to become more apparent.


and the concept is really visible here if you look at what happens when the guard moves between 3rd and 4th.

Very nice images VorNach,  This helps me visualize the parries I'm not familiar with. Another thing is interceptions, tricking your opponnent with a parry feint and doing the opposite mid lunge.-Kashi