LED Saber Safety

[Darth Nonymous]

I dunno, I'm no science major or biologist, doctor, martial master, or anything like that.... and I don't weigh much either, but I've had a guy hit me hard enough to knock me 4 feet sideways and he didn't manage to break my arm. He did say if he hit me any harder he would have though, so there's that, but still. If I can be knocked that far with one punch.... not saying a blade won't break my bones, but I'm betting it would take a serious hit with some intent behind it to manage it. Again, this should not be taken as any kind of expert opinion. I dunno hardly anything about this stuff, that's just all IMHO and experience there.

The blades flex and bend so much combined with the low density and hollow tube, not much force actually goes into the target but distributed through out the blade. They can how ever hurt and cause soft tissue damage . If the hit is directed to the face can require stitches, eye surgery or dental reconstruction. Another reason to pad yourself and not the weapon.

Also, the fact that it moved you protected you from the injury you would have sustained if he had done it while you were pressed up a brick wall. In cutting practice the unsupported target is always more advanced because it is very difficult to cleanly cut an unsupported target or soft target (like a rope).

Correct me if I am wrong, but I remember reading once that it only take 9 lbs of pressure per square inch to break bone. I'm sure with a heavy grade blade, and enough force, you could easily break a bone.

I also believe that, for reference, nunchaku generate 90 pounds of pressure if used correctly. Imagine a heavy grade being swung and control being lost and coming in contact with your face or neck.... ouch!! 

Not really. It's a myth that uses inappropriate language to describe what it means. Force is calculated by mass times acceleration. So the claim that it takes ___ amount of lbs to break such and such is an incomplete statement. You need the mass of the object (not the weight) and it's acceleration to calculate the force. PSI is a measure of pressure not force. you also have to take into account which bone (your clavicle will break far easier than your femur) and if that area is braced or free. Compound all of this with the fat that you body is not a passive system but made of reactive tissue which allow it to withstand far more force and abuse than would a solid object or inanimate target.


This is an important piece, because there are two thing which are counter-intuitive; Inury mechanism in the body does not have to be of a type that is perceived as dangerous and even with padding on the weapon you are adding mass and acceleration to the object. The first one means that when you are goofing off, are surprised or loose your focus, you can sustain injuries from things that normally you would not be injured by. When folks use the foam sword, they tend to respect it less and are more careless with the weapon. This reduction in perceived danger lowers one's guard and their tolerance of stress on the body drops dramatically.

The second part. essentially takes the object and adds force to it because it is being accelerated, padding the weapon will damage the foam more reducing it's effectiveness.

[Solinus]

Learning something new every day. That's awesome to know! Point to you.

Now, if I can just find that thread that had all of those links to gear, I could add it in here. Will have to look later tonight.

[Manroon]

That was a good thread.

My conclusion here folks? I agree with Nonymous, pad the person, not the weapon, and above all respect what you are doing, who you are doing it to, and what you are doing it with. You can't duel if you aren't fully aware of and respecting what it means to hit each other with swords.


Another good tip I might share, which does not negate the possibility of injury but certainly decreases it, is something my sparring partner and I developed back in Jr High. We call it fighting saber-saber, which simply put, means we just aim for each others weapons instead of actually trying to hit each other. A more intense version of this style does allow for hand strikes, but typically, it doesn't involve any contact. Accidents can and do happen, of course, but by and large this style is usually good for giving a demo or putting on a spontaneous show with your sabers and not actually risking any hurt. Great when passersby ask to see you fight. If you get good at it, you can do a pretty convincing show battle for them.

[Darth Nonymous]

That was a good thread.

My conclusion here folks? I agree with Nonymous, pad the person, not the weapon, and above all respect what you are doing, who you are doing it to, and what you are doing it with. You can't duel if you aren't fully aware of and respecting what it means to hit each other with swords.


Another good tip I might share, which does not negate the possibility of injury but certainly decreases it, is something my sparring partner and I developed back in Jr High. We call it fighting saber-saber, which simply put, means we just aim for each others weapons instead of actually trying to hit each other. A more intense version of this style does allow for hand strikes, but typically, it doesn't involve any contact. Accidents can and do happen, of course, but by and large this style is usually good for giving a demo or putting on a spontaneous show with your sabers and not actually risking any hurt. Great when passersby ask to see you fight. If you get good at it, you can do a pretty convincing show battle for them.

Respect is key. And it is the beginning of safety. Respect these things as if they were real weapons capable of killing you. Point for you!

Now, at the risk of sounding like too much of a wet blanket....
As a martial arts instructor there is little I spend more time on than trying to stop beginners from hitting each other's blades instead of targeting the body. There are myriad problems with this approach compounded by the intuitive sense that it is a viable alternative. Unfortunately in real martial arts this is not the case. Trying to hit the blade is targeting a smaller target, with less landmarks to judge distance, and that is moving by the will of  a person. This is the #1 no no in traditional sword play and it is derisively referred to as "clubbing" or "bashing" by some. I will spare you a list of it's detriments.

Here is what I suggest as an alternative to the "saber to saber" method you talk about. Simply target the normal areas on the body but stay one pace out of range. You blade will be able to parry normally (admittedly more toward the foible) and the strikes can target the appropriate areas and not target the blade. You must go slower and more precisely than free sparring, so it's far more methodical.

Like i said, sorry if it seems too stern or disapproving, It is not intended as such. It s a VERY common thing.

[Manroon]

Oh, no offense taken at all. I've heard much the same thing from a good and more well trained than I friend of mine. Our saber-saber, though rarely used anymore, is usually somewhere between what I said and what you said. I'm just bad at describing it. lol

The aforementioned friend actually had a great saying I can't quite remember that went something akin to this: If your sword hits your opponent's blade, you're dishonoring your weapon. Damaging it. It's a failure as a warrior. Your sword is meant as a weapon, not a shield. It's supposed to hit your enemy, not block his blade. You want to block his attack? Get out of the way.

I've since tried to take it to heart, and it's VASTLY improved my technique. Gets me hit a lot less too. lol

[Darth Nonymous]

"Your sword is meant as a weapon, not a shield." I want to get this framed. Fantastic.

[Master VorNach]

Master Nonymous has said everything I would have said, and a lot of extra information thanks to his extensive professional training and experience.

Now, if I can just find that thread that had all of those links to gear, I could add it in here. Will have to look later tonight.

This thread has links to all the safety and safety gear related threads I could find in the forums:
http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=6957.msg92846#msg92846

It also has close ups pics of the gear I use in our sparring sessions.

Now, this is a bit overkill for what we're talking about here (and it would be a bit harsh on saber blades)


however if you replace all the metal bits you see here with a fencing mask and some decent sport padding you would be able to play pretty hard and not have not have to worry over much.
This is armor for Society for Creative Anachronism armored combat. To consider the value of safety from another perspective, in the SCA, when the rules are followed, according to a couple decades of insurance actuarial data armored combat is safer than softball.


And just to drive the point home a little more visually, remember, safety first:
http://youtu.be/5bqWvHgnQjs

[Darth Nonymous]

I thought I would post a pic of me in the gear I use for sparring. I am also still in costume, but It serves as a nice illustration that it can look pretty cool for dress-up as well.

One of the things I always loved about swords growing up was armor.

[Darth Nonymous]

This needs to be bumped. Here is why:
http://www.annarbor.com/news/boy-stabbed-in-the-eye-with-sword-at-ann-arbor-theatrical-stunt-camp/

Kid gets it in the eye with a sword. Total accident. they were not wearing eye protection.

[Master VorNach]

.

Kid gets it in the eye with a sword. Total accident. they were not wearing eye protection.

They were not even practicing fighting, just choreographed sequences.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Yeah I can't believe they weren't wearing eye pro

even just safety glasses could have prevented a serious injury.

I've been both struck and stabbed in the eye with lightsabers... It isn't fun. Even if you have extreme experience, you may not catch that strike. Both times I was hit in the eye was after I scored a winning hit. My opponent was merely following through, and I was there.

Even getting struck on the side of the eye, near the temple is pretty dangerous without some type of protection. That was what happened to me the second time, and that would have hit me in the eye but I turned to keep that from happening. My vision still went dark for a bit.

Master Nonymous is dead on with eye protection or face protection, it really is a must.

[Solinus]

Thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention Master Nonymous. It really can't be stated enough. Wear some sort of protection. Even with the best training, accidents happen. And I don't want to see any of us get hurt, or cause an accident.

[Ander]

In Italy that's how we do it:

- midgrade blades only (I use the US term, but actually our central school has blades that are even more bendy)
- hand protection compulsory for all
- cup protection compulsory for males
- eye protection compulsory in tournaments
- safety and control are the first things that are taught to students

So far, in six years of practice with a hundred practicioners or so, the worse accident was a chipped tooth.

[Veldryne]

Thats a pretty good track record so far.

[Darth Nonymous]

In Italy that's how we do it:

- midgrade blades only (I use the US term, but actually our central school has blades that are even more bendy)
- hand protection compulsory for all
- cup protection compulsory for males
- eye protection compulsory in tournaments
- safety and control are the first things that are taught to students

So far, in six years of practice with a hundred practicioners or so, the worse accident was a chipped tooth.

Forgive me, but I am the opinion that that is not nearly enough to ensure safety. Eye protection should be worn at all times by novices and by experts when not performing. Even boxers wear head gear when working with their sparring partners.  

I have noticed in the videos you posted that the hand protection most are wearing is of the "driving glove" or motocross glove type.  I have never found those to be very useful for protecting against this type of thing. But, that the hand would take precedence over the eye in protective gear seems a bit backwards. Protect the eyes even when you are not fighting because what can happen is what happened in the above article.

People will get hurt in this endeavor. That it hasn't happened yet (I consider a chipped tooth to be a serious injury) is less important than the fact that these injuries are almost 100% preventable by simply wearing the appropriate gear. Even when the accidents happen it results in a bruise or sting rather than loosing an eye,or having to get dental work. Not to mention that isn't a very long time or a lot of people to give any useful information about how safe it is.

Especially insight of the fact that most of these people are doing this by themselves without supervision, I feel very strongly against unprotected sparring of any kind.