Saber Forum

Just wondering, how do you guys finish a duel?

>exhausting your opponent
>out matching him in speed
>Others?

I pretty much get lucky and tap my opponents leg or arm in the midst of blocking and attacking.

I do try, however, to incorporate skill or prior knowledge which sometimes works.  I usually try to match my opponent in their styles.  If they're doing traditional then I will use traditional.  If they're being fast then I'll be fast. If they're trying to role-play then I will most certainly role-play.
I mean, duels only last anywhere from like 8 seconds to possibly 2 minutes.

I'd certainly love to have an epic duel situated 1-2 miles in the air on a catwalk connected to a Death-Ray pointing at the sun while there is a storm going on and a war on the ground and in the air where I ultimately overpower my opponent with the power of friendship or some power of the ancients, unfortunately, that's just not the case.

We're delving into tactics... Essentially you end a duel one of a few ways; Either your blade passes through them, you immobilize them, or one of you surrenders.

Exhausting them is a tactic, outlast, outperform, and outdo them with superior stamina. Now this is a risky tactic unless you know your sparring partner's limits. You might meet the person who either has way more energy than you do or, even worse, you might meet the person who knows they run out of gas quickly so they conserve energy, minimize movement, and seek to end fights quickly... Knowing your weaknesses can help you counter them, by either developing those weaknesses, or developing tactics and techniques that help you counter those weaknesses.

Once again outmatching your opponent with speed requires the risk of your opponent possibly being faster than you. I'm pretty damn fast, but there are people out there who are faster than I am, if that's the tactic I'm relying on completely I'll be destroyed.

Strength is another tactic, one beginners especially like to rely on. When you go for strength you feel powerful, when you feel powerful you feel dangerous and in control. For people who have a lot of experience strength comes in handy because they know when and how to use it. For the beginner strength is as much a danger to themselves as it is to others. I'm fairly strong, but I'm not a very big guy, big guys are way stronger than I am. You don't know how often I hear the laughable myth that braun outdoes brain. If a guy is bigger and stronger and faster than you, you are screwed. This is a falsehood, while strength is an advantage, it is not THE advantage. You don't know how many times I've won duels against bigger guys because when they stepped in for power swings I stopped them with a one handed block, smiled and then quickly riposted for the win. A solid technical foundation, and good tactical knowledge will win the day over brute force any day.

Intercepting incoming attacks, which is catching the incoming strike and placing your blade in the path of their arm or some other mark of contact that will force your opponent to either; break off their attack, or throw themselves into your blade. This is effective, but for someone who has really good blade work you might find yourself on the losing end of the conflict. I like to use intercepts, but when people try to use them on me, I have solid blade work so when they do I'm pretty good at using their attack to my advantage.

These are just a few to start with, note that I'm not saying these strategies are bad. I'm just pointing out some of the misconceptions surrounding them. You've got to prepare for all of these, and work to understand how to use them. Every person you face in a duel is different, there are some people I don't use certain techniques on because they don't work. There are people I can use the same technique on every time because it almost always works, I have to teach them and break them of their bad habits so they can counter that technique.

The point is, none of these strategies are good or bad, they all depend on the person using them, and their ability to adapt these tactics to their own strengths and weaknesses. In essence, and Bruce Lee has been quoted here quite a few times in the last week, be water my friend.

Don't hem yourself into using one thing, remember this, "In the beginners mind, there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are only a few." -Shunryu Suzuki

We should all strive to keep the beginners mind, you have never stopped learning. If you get to a place where you are satisfied and you feel you have mastered the sword, saber, martial art, musical instrument. You are complacent, you have lost your beginner's mind. There is always more to be learned, and to have a beginner's mind means you approach every technique, every lesson as if it were new and untouched. Keep your beginner's mind, and don't be so quick to hem yourself into a particular box.

Hi there from Australia ;D

Rhythm, broken rhythm, interception, leading, pacing, and speed. So many great points here. Master Lucien Kane's post is one of the best I have read so far.

Death and battle are not to be taken lightly; making war practice one must practice as though at war. Courage is often not mentioned but if you are pressed against someone superior that does not mean you cannot win or Sheathe the Sword "Take a sacrificial blow to strike down your enemy."

Often it comes down to the spirit of the battle; if you are fighting for others that is different for fighting for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMXJa_-S3Jw#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMXJa_-S3Jw#ws)

Victory or defeat for me is a lesson. What have I learnt from this? I like to see honor, respect, and even a few encouraging kind words...

I like it even when you watch two people sparring and they shake hands and show respect regardless of outcomes. If you come away from the battle feeling rewarded for your effort; even fatigued, even not winning the day, this for me is what is remembered.

To finish a opponent is not the Jedi way. But if you must strike them down do it to protect and guard peace and justice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ4XMzBjc7o# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ4XMzBjc7o#)

Kind Regards
Bluesky

its impossible to say really although my preferred method is to take a step back and remain on the defensive  see what my opponent does what his skills and weaknesses are then when the moment of opportunity arrises or my opponent starts to tire strike back with a barrage of speed and power attacks and attempt to disarm my opponent :)

Mine Usually end like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AoOa-Fz2kw# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AoOa-Fz2kw#)

With someone yielding or receiving a disabling hit.  ;D

More seriously though, Master Lucien has presented a nice discourse on the question. (for which he gets a point !)

Hi there from Australia ;D

Courage is very important...

When you face within yourself the desire to finish them you are not at peace. Courage is facing your enemy calm and at peace with the moral right on your side. Courage is acting in the presence of fear and doubt. Finishing your opponent often comes to those willing to stand against over whelming odds and do what it takes to defeat them. Victory often comes to the one that knows themselves, the terrain and their enemy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1IjaeWg0n4#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1IjaeWg0n4#ws)

I thought this video shows courage in the face of evil. (And cool music! ;D)

Kind Regards
Bluesky

Tenacity is actually a precept of tactics. A good tactical strategy has audacity. There is a balance though, a thin line if you will between bravery and foolishness. The difference between cockiness and confidence.

Also thanks Master VorNach! I do a lot of contemplation on tactics and techniques.

I feel like this applies:

http://www.amazon.com/Art-War-Sun-Tzu/dp/0195014766 (http://www.amazon.com/Art-War-Sun-Tzu/dp/0195014766)

I need to find my copy.  It's floating around somewhere.

Hi there from Australia ;D

Along with Tenacity; Watchfulness is very important. Great post Master Lucien and good point Oramac. Often an opponent will impale themselves or defeat themselves. Are they a attacker, runner (Someone who runs backwards), counter, or fox (Someone that likes deception) ? Do they move well? Do they favor one side over the other? Do they use combinations? Do they create Tension? (Threats that attack your body) Often times the battle goes to the one that watches.

Tenacity is such an important thing to have; a desire to win, a desire to persist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EuOrY0FWmU#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EuOrY0FWmU#ws)

An important part of Tenacity is Competence and Focus. Competence is the source of confidence and Focus is the source of Accuracy. Many times over the years I would wait for that moment when their eyes and mind lost their intensity and focus and in that moment I knew I have them. Intense sparing is very, very quick but once your in it time can seem to slow. (Maybe because of adrenaline? Does anyone know why time seems to slow?)

Generally I will not allow them to build any chain of attacks, I want them to know my broken rhythm and attacks will interrupt anything they do. I want them in a siege mindset.

I found this gem of a video that really shows the speed and intensity of battle. Finishing often requires a full commitment of all your body and in that you can be defeated. Don't worry about the language difference the video speaks louder then words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4SHWXQBVL4# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4SHWXQBVL4#)

Interesting wasn't it? Anyway thank you Master Lucian your thoughts about this are very interesting and Oramac the Art of war is one of my most treasured books on war.

Kind Regards
Bluesky

Apparently it does not. The perception of slowed time appears to be a product of recall, not an actual in the moment experience.
This is the best article I could find with quick short search of the literature.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001295 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001295)




Nice video.
Finishing commitment does occur, especially in Kendo where there are requirements of movement in order for a strike to count (could someone who studies comment on this?).

Just for the sake of discussion there are times where you don't need a lot of commitment for a finishing move. It's worth remembering not to over commit as well, easy to do until you are used to being committed without over extending.
The fencing stop-thrust is a classic example. For a more historic perspective, are you familiar with the longsword attack scheitelhau, the scalp cut?
http://www.hammaborg.de/bilder/rekonstruktion/langes_schwert/scheitelhau/03_a.jpg (http://www.hammaborg.de/bilder/rekonstruktion/langes_schwert/scheitelhau/03_a.jpg)

And since the bulk of our discussion here is about the lightsaber consider that it does not need a significant amount of impact on a target to do significant damage. Though neither do most swords against an unarmored target.

Based on concepts of how a lightsaber works, I like a hilt intercept for the finish. Clean in technical execution, merciful in that no harm is done to the opponent. Very Jedi. It requires a very controlled and measured approach to how you duel, too, making you master the self first. Once you master the self, you don't really even care about winning or losing, really.

Adrenaline helps us deal with threats, so there's a few things that happen. Debateably, Your reflexes are heightened, and your cognitive skills speed up. This makes things seem to happen in slow motion. Your body increases muscle respiration, increasing strength. Your body also releases dopamine and endorphins that can help mitigate pain. I have an amateur understanding mind you, I'm sure Master Nonymous could expand on this. Anyways learning to react in a desirable manner when faced with an adrenaline rush goes back to my first post about muscle memory and training your body to react the way you want to react.

Hi there from Australia ;D

Very interesting points here, nice link Master VorNach. Adrenaline can make us jittery and tense and has a down side. The times things seem to slow always were when I was being tested by my partner.

Nice example with the scalp cut ;D

Many finishing moves are cuts to critical targets requiring little actual follow through. I was taught to separate commitment from follow through but your point is well made.

Often the finishing move requires their assistance. Take for instance the example given of the scalp cut; the victor shortened his stance to allow the exhaustion and misfire of his opponent. http://www.hammaborg.de/bilder/rekonstruktion/langes_schwert/scheitelhau/03_a.jpg (http://www.hammaborg.de/bilder/rekonstruktion/langes_schwert/scheitelhau/03_a.jpg)

The lightsaber and most sharpened blade cut us without much hindrance.

As for cutting I am a big believer in training against resistance with full commitment. This video really reflects my personal experience...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae7XwIE6cWw#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae7XwIE6cWw#ws)

Intensity and commitment I think should be in all attacks and defenses. Milk toast movements are over run and deceived. Still in the end the sword is a life long passion ;D

For your pure enjoyment :D I love this video, every time I come back from a hard day it just cheers me up!!! :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I_aXeSAw-I# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I_aXeSAw-I#)

What was Favorite blooper? I have so many! Often finishing them only requires you to wait!

Kind Regards
Bluesky

for me whenever i start a duel i always keep my distance and let the opponent make the first move and then try to judge skill based on movements, and if i know that they are way more skilled then me. i make a tactical  retreat aka running away. then try to find terrain that gives me an advantage.  

[Pedantic]
Adrenaline (epinephrine) is released during times of danger or other high stress events.
There are a host of other hormones that are released during times like these and they produce a variety of effects physically and cognitively; reduced fine motor control, impaired long term memory processing, increased blood flow to major muscle groups, changes in perception, turning down digestion, the immune system and reproductive system, among others.  You don't actually get any stronger and changes in the perception of time are not happening the way we usually think about it (see my previous post**). However your body is ready to move in some fashion (fight or flight) and more resources are available than when you're sitting in your easy chair eating chips.

These responses vary based on how significant the stressor is to the person being subjected to the situation. Experience/exposure can change how strong the impact is and some people are more resilient to the effects than others. High levels of stress or even moderate levels, where the situation is not resolved can lead to longer term problems. If the problem is resolved (charging lion is shot, car misses hitting you, you miss hitting the other car, you don't forget your lines, you don't fail the test, etc) means everything goes back to normal.

I think what we here are going to deal with more often in our pursuit is a lower level of stress, often a level that is sometimes called "healthy stress". It's the kind of thing people experience when the danger is minimal but the situation is still exciting (watching a really good horror film, sky diving, sword fighting, double overtime in the finals and you have the ball). At this level you get some of the effects that heighten/focus your senses, provide you with extra energy, etc; all the feelings that make you "feel alive". And when the event is over you weren't in any real danger (you did have a spare chute right? You're wearing proper safety gear for sparring, correct?) and the come down from the event.



http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/190049/epinephrine-and-norepinephrine
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Zebras-Dont-Ulcers-Third/dp/0805073698
**http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001295 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001295)
[/Pedantic][/b]

As a side note I'll be talking about more of this sort of thing when TPLA begins the roll out of our information and training for Form "0".

To get back on topic...
And as Master Lucian said. if you're subjecting yourself to the "healthy stress" level activities (sparring, rehearsing your speech, taking drivers ed) as part of a regular training program you can then also train yourself to respond more in the way you want to when the stress is real (tournament, presentation, first time on I-94).

Excellent post Master VorNach ;D

Can you give yourself a point? Your last TPLA upload was for me one of your very best, covering grounding, posture, balance and many other fundamental mechanics. Looking forward to Form 0  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g25d7_Afmc# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g25d7_Afmc#)

Kind Regards
Bluesky

Master VorNach did a good job of explaining this so I will just add some commentary.

Things like "muscle memory", "adrenaline" and the like are really lay persons terms that are terribly over simplistic. There is far more that goes into our experience of stress than one thing.

Another thing to remember is that while the time slowing is a function of recall, almost everything is. Different people will find differnt situations easier or harder. When something seems to happen very fast when we look back on it, it usually means were did not recall most of the details of the event. Our memory snips these pieces together so when you think back you say "It all happened so fast". Panic is the biggest culprit and it can have contradictory effects. If the panic and confusion set in and the event is traumatic enough, many will have the experience of "freezing". Their perception of the event is clear,  (a mugging attack lets say) it was short and traumatic. Panic sets in and you cannot act, it is happening to fast. But when you look back on it, time seems to slow down and you remember how you couldn't move for what seems like a long time. IT wasn't but the outcome of the event will shade how you view it.
 
We all have speeds at which feel feel comfortable doing things. It frustrates us when other people have different speeds and we have to work with them. Sam goes for the experience of stress. Fighter pilots have nerves of steel at mach 3, but will be helpless babies at the speed of hand to hand combat. Often it is because it is too slow for their processing, more often it's because there is another person hitting them. All factors.

And with recall, that feeling of hyper awareness and energy is only experienced after the encounter as your body down regulates your physical processes. The feeling it's self (if you were to experience it while not involved in some action) is very displeasing. Dizziness, loss of motor control, nausea, and feelings of anxiety are all hallmarks. The reason you dont feel them when they are going on is because your body is using the added hormones and stuff durning the encounter. Afterward, the sense of relief and well being over comes you as your heart rate and blood pressure start to drop and your mind calms down knowing you are out of danger. Hooray!

People with anxiety disorders have the physiological effects of stress without external stressors. They go in to fight or flight for no apparent reason. This is a debilitating condition. And anyone who has had an anxiety or panic attack can tell you, you do not feel like an invincible warrior during them.

We were discussing this a few weeks ago during a lesson, and I suggested that a possible reason of the different perception is that the opponent's swings go through a larger portion of your field of vision if you are fighting than if you are looking from the outside at a distance of several meters. Therefore, because the time of the actual movement remains the same, but the movement itself goes through what appears to you a longer path, it seems slower. Of course this wouldn't be true for a lunge, but I can't really tell, my last time fencing foil being in Secondary school. Comments?

Well, my first comment is that it never seems to move slower in combat. Actually the opposite. Most of my students find it moves way faster and they are far slower than they thought. From the outside it is far easier to see what is happening and it looks slower.

 Also, the dynamic for the field of vision would  have the opposite effect on perceived speed. The closer you are and the more field of vison the blade takes up, the faster it will apear to move. this is why you have to scale movement when making big monster movies like Godzilla. The bigger and further away you are from an action the slower it appears to move.

 I think it is pretty well established that the time slowing effect is a function of memory as VorNach pointed out.  As we recall events, we can pick out more detail and we remember it being slowed down.

I rarely ever saw the strike that hit me... and I was amazed at the speed every time. +1 to the above.

I'd like to echo/add a few thoughts if I may.

One major thing that people in general seem to always overlook about the Fight/Flight Response is the loss of fine motor control.   This is one area where my study of firearms actually has helped a lot.  In a stressful situation you lose the ability to manipulate fine controls (like an external firearm safety) in favor of being able to readily use large movements (like sprinting away, or kicking an attacker).   One of the best (if not the best) ways to allow for this is the muscle memory concept.  People who carry 1911 pistols every day, for example, train themselves to flick the safety off during their draw and presentation of the pistol.  This allows them to still perform that action in a high stress situation, even though they may have loss of other fine motor skills.    The same is presumably true in saber-based combat. 

The slowing effect Master Nonymous points out is more of a memory effect.  I would think it's similar to how the brain pieces together frames in a movie or video game to form a complete picture.  The brain can piece together widely separated images.  This is why Flip-books work.  The brain fills in the missing frames to form a complete motion.  But it works in similar ways to slow or fast motion film capture.  In film, a low framerate played at normal speed appears to play much faster and, conversely, a film with high a framerate played at normal speed appears to be in slow motion.  I'm no expert, but it seems possible that our brains may function in a similar manner during times of high stress.

In my experience and knowledge duels are over quickly, whenever i did reenactment fights would last 10 secs average. This is also consistent with what we know of the duration of battles given the number of men at them etc. That is the realistic approach anyhow, the realism relies on two things however a lack of wanting to enjoy the duel or showing off and the want to genuinely hurt your opponent to an extent and to disable them from continuing the match (or more likely kill them).

In terms of a friendly duel with your mates then it wont last for over two minutes imo even with messing around and gauging each other etc due to you knowing each others tactics, going light etc. this imo rules out winning on cardio - without trying to be rude if your cardio can not get you through 2 minutes of sword duelling then its something that needs to be worked on. average people used to swinging a sword or weapon of any type will not tire that fast.

Lots of drilling for muscle response will help you end a duel quickly too, exchange blocks n blows back and forth in a scripted manner (right to left down the body will do) to train yourself as other have said to react and move intuitively, this is the same for any apsect of any martial art or choreography, make it instinct.

The final moments of a duel specifically im trying to say should be every moment of the duel, the intent to win is already there you may give ground you may have a laugh with your friends but if your duelling in a serious (but still safe manner) the emphasis should be to win so train till your muscle memory takes over and it wont really be important.

Hi there from Australia ;D

Very interesting posts which I all agree with in principle; memory can play tricks. What I am talking about is a perception event in combat/sport/surfing where your perception alters in that moment. I think the video I posted is correct; adrenaline heightens senses, focus, reflex, and thought processes most of all. Elite athletes seem to be able to switch on this ability at will; I require certain pressures of intense sparring.

For me one of the biggest factors is resting heart rate; like a tennis player lowering their heart rate rapidly in between serves, experienced swordsmen are able to recover quicker then the average swordsmen. Exchanges are often over in seconds and they don't always win out over them or they over yourself. When I used to teach I would have all young people, stop and bounce a ball, take deep breathes, imagine standing under a waterfall. Anything to activate their imagination in between exchanges and lower their heart rate.

I put allot of weight on the one who can:

1/ Learn from the exchange and their opponent.
2/ Recover and lower heart rate.
3/ Stay calm and focused.
4/ Creativity
5/ Training/Technique

There are strategies for each of these factors but really it takes time to learn them. Looking at other sports where time seems to distort here's a good clip and its explanation from utube:

As skydivers, our perception of time doesn't always adhere to "real time." Sometimes it feels like we're floating instead of falling, and a mere 60 seconds can feel like a lifetime. So we decided to slow things down a little. With the help of Fabio at Ragna Films and Fly Factory in Boituva, Brazil, here's our take on time distortion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfGzwXOm8Ck#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfGzwXOm8Ck#ws)

Interesting point about your firearm experience Oramac. I believe the heightened thought processes developed in us to survive extreme events and some people can use it at will. It is definitely a real brain phenomena, as far as I have experienced, studied by many sports scientists but I am open for more info. As for resting heart rates I read somewhere that certain navy seals and others have this ability to not be affected and over react in stressful situations, a calm under fire ability that they were born with. Anyone hear anything about that?

Perhaps what you mean by memory is that in that heightened event more memories are being stored in that moment? Time isn't slowing in that moment; our brains are just opening the lens of reality - What we see is only a fraction of what is. Obviously time doesn't change but in that state when time does seem to slow everything comes together...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q58BIIN8r7s# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q58BIIN8r7s#)

Excellent posts I have learnt allot ;D

Kind Regards
Bluesky

Yes, this is one of the major points we're making. While high stress events can impact your physical functioning (among other things) it's possible to train for specific responses under stressful circumstances. This is where you see apparently amazing responses from professionals in circumstances where others are just standing still, or running away.

You guys do an absolutley amazing job of teaching


Well done guys :)

To an extent there is some heightening of the senses and improved processing however there can come a point where cognitive skills become impaired and the magnified sensory input can contribute to problems further down the road; PTSD has some of it's beginnings in this process.
It's worth noting that when we're talking about various traits being heightened or enhanced we're not talking about superhuman levels. You cannot go beyond what your body is physically capable of doing; you're not going to lift a car that has rolled on top of your schnauzer. You could be performing at a higher level than what you're used to but it's not super powers.


This is one of the points we've been talking about, you can train to change your responses during times of stress. Some people have higher tolerances to stressful situations so they may have an easier time of adapting and could seem, especially to someone who is not as resilient, to be amazingly adaptive.

We can only remember what we perceive, what we pay attention to. During stressful events we're paying a great deal of attention to some things. Novel experiences also can take more of our attention and after the fact, as we process what we just saw/heard/touched/etc. our perception of the time involved will likely be skewed simply from the effects of stress. Add to this other factors such as cognitive biases and distortions and it's not wonder that we get some quite varied retelling and remembrances  of events.


I just realized I've gone way off the original posters question. Sorry for continuing the derailment.

All excellent points; much of what goes on to end a duel is internal.

Great ideas all round ;D

Kind Regards
Bluesky

I'm also going to chime in with this little bit about the perception of speed thing that some have spoken of. Anticipation beats reaction. I had a fencer score a couple early hits on me one time, but I got a feel for his rhythm and got ahead of him as he started to move a couple times. He thought I had gotten faster physically, but my mush was the only thing that had sped up. I suppose my lesson was to press a bit more and not sit back and wait against a pretty fast opponent.

Hi there from Australia ;D

I will be discussing Anticipation allot in the Ataru - Pro's and Con's thread in a couple of weeks Jammo ;D

It is important to know when you are out matched; you don't always have to fight to your brutal ends! :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpccccP2kGA# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpccccP2kGA#)

Kind Regards
Bluesky