Saber Forum

Hopefully most people will know Master Ken and his Enter the Dojo YT-show, so the joke is not entirely lost.  ;)
But in the best tradition of Master Ken, I say: "The Seven Forms are BS!"

1. Imagine an order of warrior-diplomats, that exists over millenia (that's in itself somewhat BSitsh, but let's not delve into this) and teaches mostly in a strict teacher-pupil way (or knight-squire). And now imagine how sound it would be that each and every pupil has to learn 6 (six!) different methods to use the same weapon until he/she may aspire to knighthood.
2. The sixth of the so-called Forms is described as used by diplomats who don't have that much time to train in combat. It's basically something of a best-of - why learn the other forms at all, when there's one that obviously works fine with less effort?
3. Every form has a different mindset ... so every pupil has to work through different mindsets as he progresses? And every mindset comes with different ways of fighting with the same weapon?
4. Every knight has his/her own fighting style - that's fine, but wouldn't it be logical that the pupil would learn THIS style only until his own knighthood, where he could go and learn from different masters? Doing it the other way round suggests knights being promoted that have only a very rough understanding of six different methods - without any solid base in even one of them.
5. The seventh Form is the personal invention of one master and the only difference seems to be a philosophical one - so, why is it a different Form? Futhermore it is never taught ...

That said, all this Seven Forms thing doesn't make any sense at all (one of many things that didn't in the old EU).

So, I know that TPLA and others have tried to implement this nonsense into something actually usable. In some regard like HEMA, trying to make those things work - the problem is, that the 'source' in this case is flawed. Kudos to them for their difficult work!

But what I'm seeing increasingly often on this forum is a kind of reverse-engineering. People doing something and looking for a canonical form to justify what they are doing. "I'm doing X and Y, so I think my style is Form IV."
That's where those Forms get to be a pain in the a**.

It's not important if what someone's doing looks like Shii-Cho or Soresu (because there's not even any kind of source that defines what these things should look like) - it's important if it does two things:
1. Keeping the practitioner safe - getting hit constantly in a duel is a good hint that something's not working right.
2. Being efficent - getting tired just from moving around, without any serious attack is a sign of either really low fitness or a method that wastes energy.

So, if you're training to actually duel - don't hang your mind on those Forms. Focus on basic things like defending, moving, distance, etc.
If you're doing staged fights, you can try to incorporate the Forms as ways to define a character.
If you're doing spinning, you can do whatever you like.  ;)

But first define your goal with sabering. It'll make progress a lot easier.

Amen!  Brilliant Master A.  The only thing you left out was a drop the mic at the end.

Master A. the Myth Buster! :)
Certainly your topic offers a solid ground for an interesting discussion, let me humbly join with a few thoughts!

Applying "sense" on a lore which is based on an extensive, not necessarily consensualized sci-fi/fantasy setting is a firm opening on the chess board :)
As I recall the 7 forms in more details are part of the so called "expanded universe" created by X author and patched up, modified, further detailed by Y,Z,Q authors. They were writers and however a good one collects a lot of information on the subjects before starting to type anything, still, the written materials are only concepts of the mind, philosophies, frameworks of a content which can be further extended infintely.
The 7 forms for me are therefore rather symbols of a concept to which a lot of minds had contributed in the past decades, some of which are canonized, others are not.
I'm quite late in the game appearing as a "practicioner" of any lightsaber combat (simple reasons: the "broomstick-era" or more elegantly the "pre-Ultrasaber" era in my life wasn't that charming to delve deeper into any concepts related to the SW universe :D) but how I approached to the 7 forms was rather based on the phylosophy, the symbols.

When I think about how they developed on the lore like "when only Force users used lightsabers" through "others also started using it" and "now blasters have been shot at the lightsaber users too" until "let's have a dance in which I let my darker self released too but also controlled", etc. it makes some sense to me. Of course there was no proper handbook of techniques described on how to use a saber in Form this or that - and that's where the trap lies as you mentioned to cross-use phylosophy on martial arts to justify a certain practice. Sometimes even those brilliant graphical artist who paint beautiful covers for books are making a bunch of charming mistakes on where on the hilt to hold that saber or sword and so which makes me think that they just ENJOY the whole lot of imaginative content they are working on.

TPLA and others who try to bring the phylosophy or the concept alive are heroic animators with a task can not be fully done outright as there's actually no consensus on what's what other than vague descriptions in a novel or indirect information in another. What they can do is to try to be creative on how to choreograph these concepts using their martial arts knowledge. As the original concept is like an ementali cheese full of holes, the whole implementation will always be subject of a debate where the interpreting sense will always find ground to wedge in and question further. That may help to develop it further but it's a fininte possibility so doubt will always win. :)
Technically. Because the riddle I belive can only be solved in the interpreting mind.

If there's a will to look at the 7 forms as lore material and a hazy framework of a concept which can be used to build some credible-looking interpretation on it with a lightsaber and call it a dollar, then fun will be endless :)
Since we don't have blasters, and Force also seems to have a job in some other universe, we are left with symbols, dance, music which all just trying to bring us closer to the divine but will never do that fully.

So yes, I agree, the 7 forms as we know lack a lot of sense.
Our decison on the other can also be to switch those senses off where they don't serve our life, grab a saber and let imagination do the rest :)
I'm now excited to hear other opinions on this subject!

TLDR:
An alternative solution could be to learn DEK materials, there are only 6 forms so there's a chance to save one "nonsense" :)

There is one arena in which the Seven Forms make complete sense... and that's storytelling.  They were retrofitted to major characters in the Prequels, which essentially indicates that their only function is to externalize the mental state of characters.  With the exception of Yoda's use of Ataru, which was obviously done to allow the small Jedi Master to engage larger enemies, this holds true for every main user of every Form.  Anakin is known to use Djem So, which essentially demonstrates his propensity towards aggression and utilizing his physical power.  Obi-Wan is basically the model Jedi, with his preference for diplomacy over violence, so this is shown with the defensive Soresu.  Count Dooku was portrayed as an arrogant noble, so Makashi became a "fencing inspired" Form to play on our stereotypes of the classic villains from swashbuckling films.

Now, I think it's foolish to slave ourselves to these Forms in the context of artistry.  If you want to create a character and demonstrate certain characteristics, you should do so in your own way.  I recommend using the Forms as an example rather than a strict guide, in order to get yourself started on such ventures.

Of course, when it comes to combat... I gotta agree with Master Althalus all the way.  With TPLA, the Seven Forms are training methods, but outside of that I've never found them to make much sense in practicality.

Nick Gillard said in an interview, that it was probably him, who began this thing. Actually he had sort of level-system in mind, to scale the skill of the characters. But that system had 9 levels, 9 being only reachable as a 'cheat' by going to the Dark Side. Somewhere along the line, this concept became what we know as the 7 Forms ...

I don't know how much influence the old WEG roleplaying game had in this regard, but the forms certainly where in the KotOR games.

What bugs me is a kind of 'dependance' on those forms. Hey, there's a looooong thread on them here, and a lot of tries to fit real-world martial arts within these fictional forms.

IMHO, if people would give things like footwork, distance, ... as much thought as they seem to do with those forms, we would see better fights.

Disclaimer: I'm speaking from a martial point of view only - performance of any kind follows its own rules.

I will add my 2 cents ;)

I agree with Master Nero, the seven Forms were designed for movies, to fit with characters personality and to provide spectacular and choreographed fightings.

BUT, they can also be seen as different cultural approaches of fighting. I will try to explain my though:

Let's take a staff, just a simple staff. There are not thousands possibilities to strike with a staff. Let's have a look on this 3 vids:

The French approach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=625kpmKILlU

The English approach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMWnlQJ4Gr8

And the Chinese approach (Wushu for instance)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-emz3fv4_o

As we can see, on this 3 vids, fighters have the same weapon, a staff, and use approximatively the same strikes ... But there are differences between the moves, the energy and the relative position between fighters.

So, we have same weapon, same strikes but different cultural (philosophical??) approaches of the fighting.

So, now, imagine an infinity of alien species from every parts of the galaxy ... Alien species with different cultures and different anatomies ... I think we can obviously imagine that they can have very different approaches of fighting, even if they have the same weapon.

I know i am wrong considering SW lores but to me, the different forms can also illustrate that point ... there is different cultural approaches of the fighting using a lightsaber.

  

 

Good point - wouldn't there be the PROGRESS through the forms. So, basically, SW lore tells us, that in about 16 years, a Jedi learns 6 different ways to use his lightsaber. Like, say, learning Kenjutsu, Tai-chi sword, Escrima, Spanish Destreza, German longsword and French foil.
I know I'm slow, but I couldn't do this in just 16 or maybe 18 years - at least not in any way I would consider 'sufficent' (and as it looks, most Padawans get to travel a lot). ;)

I forgot to say that i agree with you on that point ;)

For me forms are cultural ... so it is "stupid" to imagine an order that would train pupils with 6 different forms ;)

You're absolutely right about dependence, and I personally think performance would only benefit from the inclusion of more martial training.  Learning a real weapon art will give you a strong foundation that can make it vastly easier to choreograph fights, as well as make them visually more impressive.


Lore varies, but IIRC, most Jedi would commit to a single Form by the time they reached Padawan level.  Beyond that, they would typically train in that form specifically, except in specific cases like Niman which bring in multiple concepts from various Forms.  Of course, this points out how absurd it is to train exclusively in one style that emphasizes one aspect of combat such as attack or defense...

I second that (and third, fourth ...  ;D)!
I've tried a litte experiment with my HEMA-students last year, where I made them arrange a litte stage fight one vs. two. I just gave them the initial attack and defence and let them develop the fight from there onward. In about 45 min they had choreographed a fight that not only made sense in a martial way, but also looked way cooler than most fights in GoT.  ;) From there it would have been just a matter of rehearsal to get it into a full-blown scene.

Seconded .... and more ;)

“The best way to loose an argument is to overstate it.”


First off, I agree with the frustration of people saying “I do Makashi, or “That’s obviously Soresu”. This is because these forms don’t exist. They are fictional constructs developed for narrative and world building. They have no actual contend beside what folks like us at TPLA put under those terms.

Does that make them BS? Only so far as we are willing to call “Tom Sawyer”, “The Iliad”, or “Lord of the Rings” BS. The more appropriate term would be fictional. BS carries with it the assertion that there is a fast one being pulled. Since we should all be in on the joke,  BS is a huge over statement.

However, many of the arguments laid out are in fact, errors. Errors I think in perspective. Placing fictional things in a real world context does take some work, but analogues can be found fairly easily if one is open to them. At TPLA we use the Forms as progressions through basic skills, strategies and application. As one skill builds, one is able to try more diverse things in free play. The differences in these levels corresponds quite nicely with the idea of the Forms, which should be seen as layperson descriptions of martial arts. There are many inconsistencies, myths, and misconceptions contained in the Forms as written. Just as in real life. Iwill outline some point by point.

Let me take a moment to state that I am are the Master Ken is a parody Channel and that his BS point are all tounge in cheek. I am responding to this thread not as if I was to Master Ken, but to someone who is making a serious argument about the place of the Seven Forms.

Yes, lets. An order that has existed over that amount of time will have few if any members that contain a concise and full historical and evolutional record. By the time of the prequels, I was to understand that most people were only vaguely trained in lightsaber and until the clone wars, didn’t have much to do beside block blaster bolts. So, the terms and “styles” would have gained a fair amount of mythology and public or novice descriptions of them. This accounts for the rather provincial way the martial arts art depicted in the fiction. So, it’s not really 6 different methods, its different components of the same method. Thew writers of he fiction equivocate a lot of terms like style, form, etc.



As stated above, in the fictional universe, lightsaber was an anachronism already. Jedi were the only one who carried them around. It is analogous to the late Edo period in Japan where the various schools and families that used to be the military might were reduced to indolent “dojo rats” who just sparred with shiny etc. This was a popular position  at the time, but not the whole truth.


I don’t know about you but in my decades of teaching I can identify some vary distinct mindsets a learner will go through. Systematizing them has as much validity as anything else.

But another way to look at it is that they are methods that originate in different contexts. Battlefield sword techniques will differ considerably from ones intended for the duel. Within the Star Wars universe, there are many way this can be applied.

And also, as mentioned, there are cultural and folk distinctions borne of region, society and culture. Differing methods and ways of looking at things are common place in activities like martial arts.


Not if the Order had an agreed upon curriculum by which different teachers could bring people through al the necessary skills to a predictable level.  Again, this is the premise TPLA uses and it was taken from the effort of the Jing Wu Society and the National GuoShu Association of Republican era China.


I cannot believe you have not heard of martial arts in the real world that claim similar things. This is added to add realism to the Forms because there are legends about them. Fiction about fiction.


But it does make sense if you treat the information right. The fictional accounts of the forms are very similar to outside observer commentary on real fights and battles. The uninitiated come up with lots of incongruent explanations. Making the sense out of it is what we humans do.


Thanks, It just takes an open mind and some imagination.

Basically, The Seven Forms are our inherited mythological background. You are free to work within it or without it but a statement of judgement is not really appropriate. After all, everything that is said about the seven Forms is said about a real martial art somewhere. If some one is telling you they are an 18 year master of Makashi, THAT is BS. But the fact that the Forms in a general idealogical space is just a fact of this thing and one must make passing references to them, even if it is to go a different way.

The Seven Forms are fictional. Don't think you can learn anything about fighting from watching the movies or reading the Jedi Path. These Forms are not even flushed out in the fiction. But they are for better or worse, the closest thing to a lineage lightsaber people can. And they provide a convenient frame work in which to place existing exercises and training methods.

In the end all martial arts are BS anyway.

POINTS, DN.

I like how you stopped to think about the truths about this subject. Of course the 7 "forms" are BS.....they are all left to fan interpretation. Honestly, the closest thing I've seen officially marketed that even hints at what each form is about was the Jedi Path. It only gave brief and vague descriptions of how each form is characterized. My question is, why are we even arguing about it? Do you want to novels to be instructional manuals on to use a fictional weapon in a real world setting, or do you want them to tell a story?

I wouldn't go so far as to say each form is a progression, but I thank you for bringing to light that certain forms became 'academic'; Makashi comes forefront to mind. Makashi is generally accepted as the form that focuses on saber to saber combat. With the Sith "extinct", the only real need anyone would have for knowing Makashi would be to counter fallen Jedi. And training in a form to counter another saber wielder seems a little too pessimistic for the Jedi. The only other reason to know it is to simply know it. (Like English majors. :P The only practical purpose for knowing that much about English is to teach it.)

From my research, Niman is what is predominantly used by the Jedi of the Prequel era, as its diversity was able to account for the majority of situations that the average Jedi would be faced with. Certain forms might have been learned/taught depending on an individuals strengths/needs. Like Yoda is characterized as being an Ataru (Form 4) practitioner. This would make sense as his diminutive stature would limit his effectiveness in a straightforward practice. Although I haven't come across any instances, I'm sure that a Dug would probably also have to specialize in order to be effective with a lightsaber.

I will disagree that the lightsaber is an anachronism. As compared to the end of feudal Japan, the need of samurai to carry swords was eliminated mainly due to advent of western firearms. The swordsmen may have had tremendous skill, but let's face it, stopping a tiny object moving at....lowball, 700mph is anime fiction. The lightsaber would have been out of place if the Jedi weren't able to deflect incoming blaster fire. But as shown numerous times, the lightsaber is quite versatile, beyond simply a weapon.

That's why I chose this way to start the discussion - Master Ken is a parody, but as most parodies, holds a certain grain of truth. Yes, it is exaggerated, but when it comes to SW, exaggeration gets normal, anyhow.  ;)

You have valid points here, Nonymous - and that's the point of a discussion, isn't it?

The way I see the Forms presented in fiction - Vapaad being a prime example - they resemble the martial styles of China as presented in the 60's Wuxia movies. "My Golden Dragon style trumps your Yellow Tiger style!" The use of the Forms in KotOR clearly went in that direction and the new RPG by FFG does it too (Shii-Cho having Brawn as base Attribute, while Shien switches to Cunning, for example). "Shatterpoint" has some lengthy passages that explain why Mace's Vapaad is sooooo much better (as did the Dark Horse Clone Wars comics ...).

Ameri-Do-Te is not!  ;D

I started this discussion because I felt that it was time to make something clear, that ALL of you have written: The 7 Forms are fictional, and can be seen in all kinds of ways - but they don't mean a thing when it comes to real-world dueling. It's something I feel is all too often not clear, especially to newbies.

Correct - and as with real world martial arts, it doesn't mean a thing when facing an opponent. It seems to be some kind of human need to have some kind of lineage, even if it's obviously made up (and that holds true for a lot of so-called 'traditional' martial arts, also).

Nope. Samurai where obliged to carry their swords as badges of office, after the Tokugawa took over. Most Samurai where bureaucrats anyhow (like medieval knights), who had only a very basic knowledge of combat. Firearms played a major role at the battle of Sekigahara, but then saw almost no use (besides some minor uprisings) until the Meiji restoration - by which the Tanegashima matchlock was still in use. Isolation is perfect for preserving things ...  ;)

It's interesting, however, that in the very first version of the script that later should become SW, lightsabers are not exclusively carried by Jedi - Stormtroopers carry them too. It seems that Lucas found the various Samurai movies so appealing that he modeled his Jedi more in their image and made the lightsaber their sign of rank. After all, we have to accept that what we call SW today is a genre-mashup of gigantic proportions - deliberately.

So, basically, we could just call what we train today 'Niman' and be done with it?  :o Yes, I know, fictional and all - but it seems a lot of people care about this thing.

I think his jokes are based on his statements being wildly exaggerated versions of "keyboard warrior" types. But this isn't a humor forum.

I can't speak to the EU stuff asI have never read it. But from the way that it is presented on Wookiepedia, it doesn't seem like they even have a common definition of what a "Form" is. While the most common and provincial interpretation are the 80's kung fu tropes, that fits right into seeing them as popular descriptions made by outsiders.

Secondly, the dragon fist vs Tiger fist thing is a later development in Hong Kong Cinema. The style vs Style presentation are in reality represented old Chinese  political rivalries that were often commented on in the original Novels (most of which were fairly recent.). Kung fu has been misrepresented in those movies a bit because it's not the martial arts which are being compared, but the schools or groups of people for whom the characters are fighting. So it's not so much "My dragon fist will crush your Tiger fist" but, "My gang is going to kill your gang.".


Fist off a better word for what I was meaning would be history. But lineage works too. And this is an idea I used to agree with , but now think there are aspects that are needed for good training. For one thing organization. The skills and progressions need to organized in a way that novices can navigate the material and retain the lessons. The flavors, philosophies, outlooks, and culture of any practice is going to be seated in the history and lineage of the art. It may not have a direct impact on your ability to win a duel, but technically, neither do push ups.

And that is stuff that is essential to the practice. Especially with lightsabers but in traditional martial arts as well. If we did not have lineage history or culture, we would not be doing this. Martial arts are not really good for much else than physical conditioning. They are anachronisms. We don't carry swords and most of us will not have to defend ourselves from loss of life and limb more than twice in our lifetimes. If at all. Martial arts are games now, practices, cultural expressions. It means something to us that it is called "Wudang Jian" or Bolongese Rapier" or "German Longsword" or "Yagyu Kenjutstu" or anything else. That's why we do it instead of just throwing kettlebells around and going to the shooting range.

Martial artists are always all about practicality but we do the most impractical thing out there. So, what it seems we need is a connection to what we are doing. Wether it be a "real martial art" or a fictional one.

gunpowder weapons have been in use in Asia since the Song Dynasty in China. Ming General Qi JiGuang advocated relying almost entirely on guns and cannons by the 1500's. It is sort of a myth that martial arts went downhill because of the gun. Guns have existed side by side with sword and other weapons for centuries in Asia. I don't think the situation has changed that much.

Interesting thought.

I don't think of sabering as a martial 'art', but as a martial 'sport'. The difference being that it lacks the history of once being invented to actually kill people.
Like boxing, that was always meant as a sport (even a very rough one) or many styles of wrestling.

The same myth as in the West. Gunpowder weapons were fielded since the 1400's, however inaccurate and unsafe. Bladed weapons were used in battle up until WWI - they never were really important on the field to begin with. They were always considered side-arms, used as a backup. The sword as a weapon of war is a myth in itself.

I agree for the West .... do not sure for the East.

During wars, in the west, axes, pikes and spears were often preferred to swords because of their impact on armors. But for dueling, swords have always been weapons of choice ...

In the West, the end of the Chivalry/Knighthood was not due to the gunpowder weapons. It was because war became a science.
In the Middle Age, before the One Hundred years war, it was the job of the Nobles. But during this war, battle after battle, pole-arms, bows and crossbows used by common people were the true strike force of the different armies ... In the end of this war, it was known that noble knights alone were no more able to protect a country ... it was the beginning of the end of the ancient way of war ...

My point in this was merely that a katana became nothing more than a decoration. The lightsaber however was still a prized weapon and could be operated by anyone (your results may vary). Thusly Grievous. Although not a Force sensative, he could still be more than a match for most Jedi, even masters.


I know. This:

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-04/enhanced/webdr03/22/12/original-13194-1398183929-40.jpg?downsize=715:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)


Depends on how much of an anal-retentive nerd you want to be. Now if a bunch of swordsmen and other martial artists got together with Lucasarts and pow-wowed about establishing set practices for each form, then you could move forward with the notion of identifying each individuals style. It would be fun, and probably visually stimulating, but wouldn't contribute much, if anything, to any story. Even though I'm very detail oriented, even I say just let some dudes whoop out sabers and some shell went down. Awesome.

But on the other side, I wouldn't call the general saber techniques seen on screen to be any specific form. I've also read that Niman also incorporates use of the Force in its maneuvers. So at some level, Niman becomes impossible to practice. :-\

(http://www.strangebeaver.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/lightsaber/alternative-lightsaber-techniques-1.jpg)


I wasn't trying to diminish the place of close-quarters combat due to the use of firearms, but you can't argue that as firearms became more and more accurate, so to did their effective range. Ultimately making it difficult to close the distance to an enemy in order to use a melee weapon.

Historically speaking, there aren't many martial arts the fit that category. Martial arts is a very large field that includes sports, warfare, forms of dance and performance, and traditional training systems. Sabering is quiet frankly more of an art than any since we need to create the back story as well.

You have to qualify this. Swords have been used as side arms and calvary weapons for quiet some time and if you just mean short bladed hilt weapons, those would be an almost ubiquitous side arm among soldiers.

In fact, most of them, as their first 'versions' were created to be used in duels, warfare or self-defense. What later became of them is an entirely different matter. I always found it rather funny how practitioners of 'traditional' Asian styles would look down on HEMA as 'having no living lineage', when in fact a majority of them were practicing certain techniques just because of tradition ...

Some of those arts became acrobatics like Wushu, some were sportified like Kendô, some became meditative practices like Iaidô and others were covered up as dance and almost disappeared in it like Capoeira. But somewhere down the line, all of them were intended to actually kill people.

Bladed weapons were carried as side-arms - but they were never really relevant as to the battle itself. The Samurai's primary weapons in the field were the bow and the spear, the footsoldiers not even carrying a sword (just a long knife). In Europe, swords were the side-arms of knights (their primary weapons being the lance, mace and shield), nobles and officers - people who often were not expected to actually join in the fray. Depending on cultural background, swords would be used in formal pre-battle duels, however.
Swords have the (military) drawback to be expensive. In Europe, we have quite a lot of pictures showing battles where even the nobles don't carry swords but Falchions instead - those being a lot cheaper.
The most ubiquious cavalry weapon in history is the spear, followed by the bow. After those weapons were either lost or the fight was carried into close quarters, some sort of side-arm was drawn. Often, this was a kind of sword (curved blades quite often) but also a lot of bludgeoning arms.


But we're disgressing quite some way here ...  ;)

That's the myth but not historically true. Most of the martial arts we practice today really don't have a continuous history going much past the 1600's and really the majority of them come from the early 20th century. The entire idea of the martial arts as a separate component of things is also a relatively new concept.

 For instance, in China before the early 20th century, martial artists were not called that. If you were a soldier you need to use a spear, sword, shield, etc. If you were a body guard you need other things as you did as a police man. Most arts were settled and codified in the 20th century and, as you pointed out earlier, made up a lot of lineage BS. Including the killing part. It gives a system veracity in the eyes of perspective students, but it in no way mens anything more than an advertisement. Most of these people don't even have concrete evidence for their arts origin or early lineage, at least in Asia. But the idea of a person who's defining characteristic is practicing the martial arts for their own sake was unheard of say in the Qing Dynasty. You had a vocation or situation that required it.

But, even by that metric Sabering is still a martial art. These are analogs of swords, killing weapons. And therefore, descended from systems intended to end life. Therefore, it is just as a martial art as HEMA. Or anything else. Just as Keno and kenjustu is.
You equivocate a lot on your definition of swords and weapon of war here. Swords to me are hilted blade short weapons used for cutting and stabbing people. So a falchion is a sword, just a specific type of sword. And even when you have cavalry with spears, they have blades as side arms. Why you don't include side arms as weapons of war, when there are obviously historical pieces intended for military purpose versus civilian purpose.

The above just shows what part in war swords and blades played. They may not have been the main means of engagement in large scale battles, but as side arms they are just as important. Arming sword and shield is still useful with spears and calvary. Theye are indeed a weapon of war as they were produced for soldiers all the time.

My point is that there is lots of fiction in the "real" martial arts.  The very idea that all martial arts existed in the forms we recognize now is the biggest one. That is what I call BS.
 The complaint that the Seven Forms is BS is just superfluous. They are fictional, true, but so is most of what we know as martial arts. People claiming to be masters in it when it doesn't exist are just identifying themselves as amateurs. But it's not really a lie when every one knows it's not true.

Ahhh, now I see - sorry, but English is not my native language, so I sometimes need a bit more explanation to understand properly.

Funny enough (if you take the common picture at face value), there are more martial artists in Europe than in Asia. We have names and evidence of professional fencing masters up from the 12th century - men that actually made a living by teaching others how to fight. Other fencing masters where craftsmen, teaching in their off-time.
But then, there are no standing armies between the fall of Rome and the late 16th century, so learning to fight was not the baddest idea when one could be called to arms anytime.


The thing is: a side arm is a last resort. Like officers today carry a pistol but will rely on their assault rifle as long as possible. So, when the side arm is drawn, a lot has already gone wrong.
In fact, reports of officers defending themselves with their sword during the Napoleonic Wars mostly depict them taking some enemies with them before being shot to death or stabbed by bayonets. That's a scene that can be found quite often throughout military history in various ways.

The MYTH lies in the way, the sword is shown in popular media (not only today). The sword is not the best of weapons - especially not in warfare.

Martial arts are children of their social and military world. Whenever one thing changes, the art adapts or dies.

Oh, I think there's a lot of good material in this thread by now. ;)

I think the argument could be made that some martial arts have remained largely unchanged in their core philosophies and what they train their students to do. For instance, Japanese martial arts have moved from outright combat arts aimed at killing the enemy, into art forms built around self-defense. That change, a result of the Western influence and cultural shifts away from militarism. In Europe, the different martial variations of Fencing allowed their practitioners to win many duels/kill many challengers, but the art of fencing was fundamentally ill-suited to the battlefield. Kung Fu has given rise to many different schools, Tai Chi and Wing Chun to name a few, and is itself a multi-style form, But there are schools of Kung Fu that to this day maintain the core traditions of the art as a lethal skill. This is not, of course, to suggest that it is the only school to preserve its roots in a martial and warlike tradition but to draw attention to the fact that some societies and traditions survive the larger societal changes by retreating into smaller enclaves away from the public and public practice.

The problem being that without the need to use it, there's no proof the skill is still there.
What you say just underlines my statement (I don't understand your intention here clearly, sorry) - changing circumstances lead to changing arts. Those that won't change will eventually die out.

That's what has been said in the other thread about the 7 Forms: The Jedi were preserving each and every evolutionary step of their fighting arts, regardless of the change and without even thinking about its usefulness. But being a exclusive society, the Forms survived within this tiny bubble that was the Order. In the end, the Forms died with the Order ...

I use and see the forms as lessons. You start with 1, learn the standard stance as well as its blocks and attacks. Then move on slowly to each and practice the form that is most comfortable more than the others. Once you feel you got most of it down you can start to mix and match. I really only see it as a teaching tool really. Nice post!

Ummm.......boxing is a martial art. It just limits techniques to fists only. Similarly, there are other martial arts that focus on kicks. Wrestling is a martial art as well, but instead focusing on delivering body blows, it focuses on twisting the body into submission through pain. And like most predatory mammals, "play/sport" is, for the most part, practice for the real fight. Champion basically equates to "most effective fighter".

Cavalry is pretty much just mounted soldiers, whether they used sword, spear/lance, bow, rifle, or other. But swords, although have been used for other significance, are specialized blades, designed for one purpose: to kill another human being.

Defintions ... Boxing was created as a sport. Right from the beginning, there were just two men, some kind of ring and rules that the two agreed upon. Like Welsh shin-kicking was created a sport.
Depends on the style of wrestling (here, things get complicated). European wrestling in the Middle Ages was based on techniques for fighting in earnest, but had a sporting variant.

MY definition of a 'sport' is, that it was never created with the intention to actually maim or kill the opponent. Even with early Pugilism, deaths in the ring were uncommon. Like with Dussack-fencing, were bleeding head wounds were intended, but permanent damage was not.

But that is just my definition, nobody has to follow this.  ;)

A Martial Art was created for fighting (self defense, war preparation, body/mind shaping) and is based on technics.

A sport was created to find a winner by managing a "safe" fight between opponents. It is based on rules (rules that enable finding the winner) and all technics are created considering the rules.


It is not my definitions but i like them ...

Judo, for exemple, is a Martial Art (no weight categories ...)  .... but Olympic Judo is a sport (Weight categories for safety and less technics because of the rules ...).
English Boxing was never considered as a Martial Art because from the beginning, it was created to find a winner between two "champions" using only fist (and only the front face of the fist).
Chinese or French boxing were originally martial arts ... and then, becomes sports ...

According to the history I know the Highland games were developed as a means of combat training that wasn't apparent to the British. I honestly couldn't imagine getting crushed by a tossed caber.

I only know of Shinty as a way to teach mass-fighting, covered up in a game (the same seems to be true for Irish Hurley). And hitting someone with a stick is defenitely good training to do the same with 'real' weapons.  ;)

THANK YOU SO MUCH
I am purchasing my first few sabers (I am buying three, so my friends and I can duel, and learn together) later this month, so I am just getting into the hobby, and reading this made me relieved to know that I should not focus on stupid forms, but rather on what works for me specifically.

The Seven Forms themselves are pretty much fictional fun, but you're typically going to start with SOME kind of standardized structure.  It's how you learn the basics and develop your foundation, and after that you become more focused, and work on the specifics of your particular methods.

IMHO one should start with the basics of fighting: stance, footwork, defense and blade control. Structure doesn't matter that much at this stage, besides maybe deciding on a method to begin with.  ;)

Yeah, the basics were essentially what I was referencing.  We all have slightly different ways of describing the path to training, but I think we're all essentially saying the same thing (for the most part).

As always, one surefire way to provide yourself a good foundation in lightsaber combat is to seek out instruction in some weapon based martial art.  With a good teacher, and an art that focuses on combat applications, you'll have an extremely strong starting point for saber combat.

100% agree. We decided a few years back to use Kali ( Inosanto Method ) as our primary " key " to translate the Forms. It's worked out great so far. Our Form 2 , 3 and 6 have a little bit of a Meihuaquan flare as well.

Basics, basics and then more basics. Most important skills IMO. No matter what your art. You don't build a house from the top. So why would you want to skip to the advance stuff. ( Said to no one in particular. Just something I say to our Kali Kids at the Academy. All they want to do is the Advanced material. The " Cool " looking stuff )