Saber Forum

A lot of people ask me: What saber do you recommend for the Forms of Lightsaber Combat. I usually answer that it depends on the user mainly, but if you want some in depth advice, here is what I have learned:

In canon SW mythos, there is supposed to be a saber for every style of Lightsaber Combat, and you can read about it all you want on various website, etc. However, I have found through trial and error that this is nothing more than illustrative hooey.

Let's take Makashi for example. A curved saber of some sort is the supposed "best" weapon for this fencing based style. But let me ask you this: How many fencing foils, sabres, etc. are actually curved? And how many people out there have actually wielded a curved saber? Personally, I have found it rather challenging to use one, and spins are murder because of the hilt's shape. I am not saying you can't master using it, but for the majority of people out there may have a tougher time. I think a lot of it is that people like Dooku's saber, and they want to be an awesome Sith like him and wield a curved weapon.

My advice: Use a simple, lightweight aluminum hilt for those precise strikes...maybe like an Initiate because it's a little shorter with a longer blade. Of course, a Dominix, Liberator or Redemption will work well, too.

Here's one: Djem-So/Shien: Both aggressive forms, and Shien being reverse gripped. However, in a reverse grip style, not EVERY strike and block will be reverse grip as you will need to switch to two hands, back and forth to regular grip, etc. A saber with a good choke point that is easily spun and switched is my recommendation. Perhaps a Shock, Arbitor, Cataylst or Prophecy

For Shii-Cho, which is a basic form with basic strikes and blocks, any Ultrasaber will work fine.

For Soresu and Ataru, I recommend Shock, Cataylst, Prophecy, Liberator or Standard Issue

For Juyo/Vaapad: A Bane is perfect for these. Of course, any other Ultrasaber will work fine, too.

Niman: That's up to you.  ;)

Again, please don't think this is definitive...you may have other opinions as your experience grows, and of course the saber combat forms are subject to interpretation. However, this can hopefully point those newer folks in the right direction.

I never actually thought about which saber to use for different styles. I always just pick out the saber I want most. lol.

I do notice that I use certain forms better with certain weapons. I have a preferred beat stick for many styles... a custom made one in green that I like best in a single handed style, a modified arbiter that I like to kick form switches with in mid flow (that messes people up sometimes), a big brawler with an extra long blade that I use a two hand power form with, and even certain sabers that I have a short blade in for my off hand when I throw Jar'Kai. My advice is to play around with as many sabers and styles as you can since it gives you different profiles that keep dueling interesting and offer a tactical advantage at the same time.

I am also a big believer in using a shoto saber in your lead hand for Jar-Kai. It's just a better way to move IMO.

I notice that you control the space better and get jammed less with the shoto in the off hand.

Hmmm.....i dont see how the Shock would fit for Djem-so/Shien the hilt seems to small to fit comfortably for one handed grip.
Would leather grips help??

 ???

eh?

Once again...subject to interpretation...  ;)

And the Shock isn't small. It's an average sized hilt.

Actually, Shien isn't reverse grip. Shien is using your saber to reflect blaster bolts back at specific targets. My bet on why you think it is reverse grip is the picture of Starkiller on Wookiepedia's Form V page, where it states he uses Shien. You can use reverse grip in any form.

Although it's true that you can use reverse grip in any form, Shien (canon-wise) is the most prolific reverse grip form.

Quote from Wookiepedia entry

"Additionally, there was an ancient Sith variant of this classic lightsaber form called Sith Shien. Sith Shien was known to focus on quick and aggressive attacks against the user's opponent. Shien practitioners were known to favor, or at least regularly utilize, reversed grips."

More info here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_V:_Shien_/_Djem_So

I was going to add my own thoughts on this into the thread I begun for the saber forms, but since Elder Caine has been good enough to begin a thread for discussion of which blades are most suited to which styles, I think I will offer my own humble suggestions here. As has been said, the user chooses the lightsaber and the form, or the Force does. Simply picking up a lightsaber of a certain variety will not give you abilities in the form the weapon might be suited for. Through careful practice and experimentation, customization, you can find a lightsaber that suits your chosen form.

Form 1: An initiate would be perfect for this style as it's a basic, no frills saber with a short blade that will provide less force, and therefore less danger of damaging others or objects. The saber of one just learning lightsaber combat should be a fairly standard one, because in this way they can get an idea for how to handle most lightsabers, while also learning through experience what improvements they might prefer.

Form 2: The old Dark Apprentice, modified with parts to increase the weight on the end of the pommel and thus attain balance, would be great for this form. A curved hilt is preferable for Makashi for a number of reasons. Firstly, the curved hilt is difficult to use two handed, which is something that any Makashi Master will tell you is a crutch. Makashi is a single handed style. The curved hilt allows for greater blade control and different angles of attack, particularly the stabbing motions that are a staple of Makashi's offense are made easier to direct. Failing that, the balance of a liberator is supposed to be quite good.

Form 3: I would reccomend a weapon that is either balanced or with its balance towards the hilt. I dont know of many unaltered ultrasabers that fit this profile. Maybe a Bane or a Arbiter. The wider guard on the Bane would help for Soresu. But, obviously, as an example, Obi Wan Kenobi's weapon is good, and the Force FX version has the proper balance. A rubber or leather grip is also useful to help cushion some of the vibrations coming down the blade from the blocks inherent to this form.

Form 4: Ataru users need a comfortable, easily manipulated hilt. A shorter hilt with a good rubber or leather grip is helpful. The weapon must become an extension of the body to aid in balance, and to have the body's motion employed in strikes more than any other form. An initiate hilt would do well here though Ataru requires a full length, if light weight, weapon. A plastic hilt might even be useful for this form due to its light weight.

Form 5: Djem So requires a blade with a foreward balance, that is weighted towards the blade in order to add force to the attack. A single piece metal saber cover is preferable as well as a heavy emitter shroud. Beveled shrouds are used as well for differentiating a blade and a flat, as though the weapon were a heavy single edge sword with one side as the blade and one side used to block. The saber should have ridged grips to ensure a good hold. Djem So style sabers are often not as streamlined as their counterparts, examples being Anakin, Ahsoka and Vaders weapons. I would reccomend the prophecy, shock or a customized standard issue. In these models the foreward balance is a plus.

Form 6: With Niman I would recommend just using an aeon or a dominix, a simple, unassuming, basic weapon that mirrors the basic combat prowess of Niman. This could be paired with a short blade initiate in the off hand for Jar'Kai. Basic weapons make this form's simplicity into a strength via adaptability and ease.

Form 7: This one is difficult as I have of course not mastered form 7 (hardly anyone has!) So all I can do is just to look at the two practicioners of juyo/vaapad, I think that a weapon that allows powerful attacks (Forward balance) similar to Djem So, but with a more comfortable grip is the result of that study. Neither Maul nor Mace had much of a guard on their saber, or a beveled emitter. A very well ridged grip is essential though so the blade doesnt fly loose in the furious motions of the style. I'd reccomend maybe a Bane, a Shock or a Redemption.

Nice post, JdiKnhtJMH! It's always nice to hear another person's take on things.  :D

I'm of the school of, just pick a saber that you like. If you like the way it looks and it feels comfortable in your hands that's all that matters. With enough practice you can make it work for which ever form you want. The only exception might be Makashi with a saber staff.

I would like to see more of a staff emphasis on VII. It is more aggressive, and I think Maul's use of the form is a pretty good interpretation of the movements and emotion you need to have.

Many thanks Caine, I havent near the martial experience you have, but I usually manage to figure out the basic matters of the styles. I'd love to hear your critique of my lightsaber form instructions.

Master Nick - For form 7, I think a saber staff would be useful, but then the same could be said for any form.  The Jedi among us are of course not supposed to use those, so I generally don't include saber staffs in my reccomendations. That said, a staff would probably work well in Ataru and Juyo both.

Tell that to Bastilla Shan.

Didnt she fall to the Dark Side and then get possibly killed depending on which ending you choose?

I don't think she gets killed(not in game at least), but she does turn to the Dark Side, but that doesn't last long if you play the canonical ending. You turn her back when she confronts you.

My first play through I didnt do just the right dialogue and I ended up having to put her down. I started over from a save later though.

If she turns to the dark side you can either choose to kill her, save her, or join her.

But anyway, of course Jedi use saber staves, just not in any movies we've seen.  In comics and video games, yeah, staves are common.

I read somewhere that Luke trained his students at the Praxeum to use saber staves, whether or not that actually became their weapon of choice.

After reading through the many sources on the 7 styles, i found my style similar to what is described as form 7. from my perspective it is a strong combination of speed and power, and a style that lacks a sense of flow. wild swings that make sense to you and only you. that said, an increased reach is a form 7 users best friend, so long handled saber or saber staff is useful. dual sabers can be useful as well, but are very limiting as grabs, kicks, and other very physical (sometimes viewed as "Dirty") techniques where your off hand could be useful are often used to throw off the opponent.

Alrighty, I'm just going list off the different things I've tried. Mostly, in combat I use jar kai, but I've also done a fair bit with the staves, and slightly more irregular, the long hilt saber. not the pikes, though those are fun. just long handled.

First off, Jar Kai.
My primary style, fast offense, slightly unpredictable. good against a variety of weapons. not so much with the blasters, but good enough. Worst thing to do is give up the attack. loss of momentum is death. same as in forms like 5 and 7.  Also, while using a shorter saber in the off-hand is easier, your total effective attack range is defined by your shortest reach, and offense is key for this style. Personally, I love using identical duals between 30-36 inches. 32-33 is best, 36 is good if you need the reach, 30 and under if you are as fast as a jumping yoda. Or just have a good reach.

stave. similar to jar kai, so most of the principles apply. however, keep in mind that while facing one opponent, the second blade is always by you when you attack with the first. So, a smaller variety of strikes... but the intimidation factor can make up for it, if you use it right.

Long handled saber. This seems to be a bit of an under-used saber style, but one I'm rather fond of. In fact, most two-hand blades I use have long hilts. Here's why. With the shorter hilts, you can effectively use your pretty little power strikes like anakin, or pummel a guy like windu, but with longer hilt, you get the options of more wrist based attacks, in an almost makashi manner. What I mean is this, a long handled saber,  can be held like a short pike, and used to thrust and strike, while simply rotating it around the center axis of your body. admittedly, this takesalot of practice, and you'll likely take a ton of hits, before you master it, but in the end, the variations allowed by such a weapon out-weigh the time spent training.


Hope this makes sense to somebody, I find it harder to type my theories on this, than to practice them. anyhows, Cheers.

edited to include info on same-size duals.

This may seem like a dumb question but what would be a good style for dual wield and both sabers being the same length?

That's still Jar-Kai.

Indeed it is. I can't believe I left that off, when that was my point in bringing up the attack range difference when using a shorter saber. *facepalm* 

Thanks for the clarifcation caine.

Thanks Caine!

Hmmmm.... hmmmm.... this is very interesting to me..... I never truthfully thought that much about it until reading this thread.

Obviously the first lightsabers were cobbled together LONG before "The Seven Forms" were part of the GFFA, but this line of reasoning makes a lot of sense in practicality. I am a foil fencer, and even though it's similar at first blush to epee fencing, the "technique" is very different, as is the size and weight of the weapon.

So I'd like to throw in another variable in addition to style of lightsaber for a particular Form... what about the size of the saber and overall length, especially in comparison to one's body size/height?

I am still in the process of defining my "Form" (probably some combination of one, two, and three) although I really like to do the spins. Lately I've been trying to work on the behind the back switch thing, and I find I am banging the tip on the ground on my left side after making the switch. It may be that I need more practice, or it may be that the overall length is too long for my height. If I were using a form without spins, this would likely be a non-issue.

So I would love some more input on "sizing" of the lightsaber and blade for the different forms.

Bear in mind that some sabers have a choke that is set back a bit (e.g., the UltraSabers Catalyst) whereas many or most are gripped right behind the emitter. It would seem that the sizing would be from the actual "choke point", which may alter the length of blade needed.

To me, the form you do is not determined by you. The basic principle for menus whatever is comfortable and works the best is the saber for you. For example, it follows the same idea behind the "wand chooses the wizard" in Harry Potter. Based on the saber, you may or may not feel completely comfortable with it. Same goes for styles and forms. It isn't really your choice of what forms you excel in, with each person is abdistinctuve style they created themselves, not by following the pictures in a book or from a teacher. Your knowledge stems from your mentors, and after a certain limit is reached, you yourself have created a distinctive form only you are the master of.

Hmm, on the whole blade idea, I think you should do something that is comfortable to you. I tried fencing for a while, and honestly, it just was not for me. I thought the ideas and techniques were valuable to learn, and I had fun with the footwork and learning to move a little differently, but I could not get used to the hilt style/blade style. It was too small for me. Not sure if they have any other types of hilts, but I tried out the regular thin handle as well as the pistol grip. I was more used to the basic katana hilt as well as the hand positions and technique of using one. Granted, I have been able to mix and match certain grips and techniques and such, but it let me know that sometimes my body doesnt want to work with certain things. I think there is a way, to a point, that you can train yourself to learn a variety of weapons, of course, but it all comes down to what you really feel is right. You move a way here and you do this over there. I think that is something you need to focus on. You bring yourself to a point of realization to what exactly suits you best, and what do you think can extend yourself better. You can still learn as much as you can, I still love learning as much as I can myself. But, you really have to consider what hilt suits you and what blade can better suit your style. Of course, try everything out, but learn from it. Certain hilts I love from Ultrasabers, but certain ones I just cant see myself using. But, to each their own. And I think finding what suits you the best is half the fun of this sort of hobby.

Thanks for the input .... and sorry for the slow response. I've been unexpectedly offline due to an ill family member.

I'll continue reading and I'm sure I'll have some more questions. :)

For me its been quite a big debate regarding my saber form. Since i've purchased my first ultrasabers which was the V1 dominix, it seemed comfortable enough for Shien/Djem So, I've been inspired by Starkiller in Soulcalibur which seemed to be the closest thing I can practice with. Afterwards, when i purchased my two nemesis, i tried a Force Unleashed II type of grip, it was a little bit harder since the switch is closer to the emitter than the V1 Dominix.....i purchased the Aeon.

I find the Aeon (in my opinion) to be satisfying for Shien/Djem So users.

Anyone else would like to share this opinion??   :)

I just wanted to point out, Caine, that in fencing there is a type of grip called the "pistol grip" that is quite common, and resembles a curved saber in some instances, especially in the way its gripped.

Edit: it could also be based on the "French" grip, which has a slight to significant curve.

Quick question, can a dominix v2 be used with a Djem So style of fighting?

Yeah, was going to mention this myself. I was on a traditional (as in NOT electric) fencing team through college and there actually aren't any hilts that are straight hafts like a light saber. The foil hilt I prefer is shaped like a very shallow 'S' to fit the shape of the interior of your palm.

For those interested: Look at your palm facing your eyes. Close your hand almost into a loose fist as if you're holding a (thinnish) hilt. Look past your finger tips into your palm. The passage from the bottom of your hand out through the top where a blade would project is very definitely NOT a straight lined cylinder. It's curvy. If you're going to be fighting all day long the closer you can get to this natural neutral shape the better off you will be and the more endurance you will have.

And as for saber, the hilts are absolutely bent, very much like, ugh, hate to type this drivel: Count Dooku's. Once you hold one in your hand it's pretty apparent why it's shaped the way it is. In fact, look at any number of single handed bladed weapons, from axes to cutlass to sabers, bent curved hilts are pretty common.

I had no experience with those pistol grip things though. Might it have scored me five a little more often? Maybe, but so damned ugly, like some weird alien gynecological tool, just not worth it.

Regardless, it makes every bit of sense for the shape of a light saber hilt to match the fighting style of its owner. A big two handed hacker may very well want a big straight handle, while a slashing dodging minx could feel much more comfortable with a bent hilt.

Really you can use any hilt you want, with any fighting style. Some are better suited to certain styles than others, but you'll adapt.

is there a website that can help me study this saber style? or is it something you just come across?

Here's a hint: Watch for a certain someone's Saber Forms of Combat CD's that will be avail. on the Ultrasaber's website later on this month. All forms of combat will be covered.   ;)

Lol will do Caine. I will definately look into getting those. Ive seen some of your videos on youtube, and I can already say I'm impressed with your work. I look forward to seeing these if I can get my hands on them  ;D

Wow!  I joined this forum not long after it came out but I never got around to actually reading it until now.  What have I been missing out on!!!

I am an Ataru user for a single blade.  Although I am much more efficient with lunges and stabs I very much prefer twirls and spins.  I find this form to be much less effective but very graceful and decorative.

I prefer a double saber, although from my experience it is extremely difficult to wield and quite ineffective.  Because the double saber is less manueverable and slower due to its extra weight, I tend to fall back on soresu as my primary double saber form.

I was actually trying to develop real physical lightsaber forms based on the descriptions I had read about them.  I took it so far as to create a Jedi Order.....until Lucasfilm sent me a letter advising me not to use their copyrighted material.

@JdiKnhtJMH
Thanks alot for sharing your experiences :)
I hope you're not angry if I take note and learn from these experiences. *saves it in my "Lightsaber-studies"-directory*

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but... the "pistol grip" for foils is simply that--the grip itself.  The remainder of the weapon is just as standard as any other foil (such as the French or even antiquated Italian grip style).

The pistol grip actually has a somewhat interesting history... which I'll be brief about.  Super brief.  A fencing master's son had a bad ailment--a stroke at a very young age.  This was the left side of his brain, affecting the right side of the body.  His hand "curled".  Not much strength or control.

But the master wanted him to experience fencing.  He found experts in "comfort" and/or grip designs for whatever products required such usage (being gripped, lol!).  The design came from there, and was actually found to be pretty darn comfortable for most ANYONE.  :)

Still... it doesn't affect the curve of the blade--although most fencers *DO* put a curve into their blade (a few choice bends, actually) for a multitude of reasons I won't go into.  But primarily--the blades are easily more considered "straight"... :)

That's a pretty interesting origin story, even after 8 years of fencing I didn't know that!  Funny how little bursts of ingenuity like that lead to fads like the pistol grip, which is one of the most popular types of grip (in foil and epee) in the world of fencing.

Not that I want to start anything either, but I figured I'd put in my two cents.  Novastar is right that the grip doesn't affect the blade curvature.  However, many fencers (myself included) tend to prefer bending their tangs so that the pistol grip (or some french grips even) have a downward angle, which to them allows for better point control.  I see this as analogous to the curved hilt which is recommended by most forms of Star Wars canon for Makashi users.

That said, I'm a Makashi stylist and I use a straight hilt, so it's really a matter of personal choice.

I'm a big fan of the curved grip for Makashi, I feel it's just a good tradition to have, but the real key to that style's sabers is just to have something elegant and balanced and grippable.

For more info, see my 20 page lightsaber combat explanations megapost.