Saber Forum

Here is a tutorial I did on the first basic strike of Shii-Cho: Sai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsFZgDDd2No#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsFZgDDd2No#ws)


Feel free to use it, comment, or give feedback ;D

A good tutorial on the Sai strike.  Well done.  What is your training background, if I may ask?

Thanks a lot.

I teach Chinese martial art (Gong Fu and Taiji). Most of this comes from Chinese longsword, although the second one is a military da dao (big knife) drill.

That being said, I do a fair amount of research so I am familiar with many other methods. I often spar or work with German longsword folks, Korean, Japanese, etc. etc. I try to keep my background as varied as I can. I believe there is an objective truth behind all of this stuff and that is the same whichever "art" you do."Fight the man, not his coach." as one of my teachers used to say.

 That's actually the main reason I'm doing this. Lightsaber is a new thing and can encompass all the varieties of all the martial arts simultaneously. I'm hoping this will enable me to reach folks that don't feel martial arts is within their reach, but still would like to do something like it.

How about yourself?

I've been teaching Tae Kwon Do since 2004 and I've been training for 20 years now.  I've also delved into Aikido, Krav Maga, Iaido, Kenjutsu and several other arts.

At any rate, well done on the vid.

Cheers.

nice vid, thanks for the slow motion in there, gives  me something to show the local guys that are just getting into sabers and have no martial arts backround at all

Excellent! Thats why I do it! Thanks!

Yeah there are a few of us here in winnipeg, one of the guys i used to spar with like 8-10 years ago when we were just out of highschool

but a lot of the guys getting into it now with us, have no backround at all, with my training being a hodgepodge, and a fair bit of self taught "this works, this doesnt" im finding it a challenge to at least teach them the basics of footwork and body posture

something like this is a HUGE help, please keep it up

Thanks for the video, its very helpful and informative! It was a little hard to understand, but I suppose thats just because I'm not awake yet  ;) Point to you, my friend!

Wonderful video.  I have a quick question.  What type of saber are you using?  I kind of looks like the US Raven but it did not have claws from what I could see.  Just curious.

This is an EXCELLENT video! Thank you very much. I have been looking for tutorial videos all over the place, and this is the very BEST that I have seen. I really hope you do more.

I can use this to help me learn footwork, as I am not very coordinated in that area, and need all of the help and practice I can get.

I have always loved martial arts, but have not had any real training outside of the military and the few classes I had in high school. I want to learn how to use a sword (saber) but I dont have any time outside of work to take classes. With your video I can practice in the safety (note: safety for others, not for myself) of my home.

I look forward to more of your videos good sir!

Light side point or Dark Side point?

I am using the US Dark Arbiter that I fit with the metallic finnish emitter. I hope to have some combat vids up soon to show off the durability of their weapons.

That's great! That's definitely my goal with these things. Start slowly, these exercises were taught to legitimate soldiers in wartime. Simple, direct, and effective. They also require little supervision just persistence and objectivity.

As far as the points, I don't really get what those things are, but Darkside I guess.

I'm not quite sure how they work either. I think they are a representation of yor Force Alignment? Or maybe a like/dislike rating? I haven't found where it is described anywhere.

@Makashi  - " Thanks for the video, its very helpful and informative! It was a little hard to understand "

Could you elaborate on what portion or aspect was hard to understand, what would increase the clarity?
Thanks!

The points are Force alignment, they are just for fun, not a like/dislike rating or anything. Positive points are representative of a light side alignment, negative points are representative of a dark side alignment.

Dark side for me then! ;)

Good presentation in the video...  This is very similar to techniques illustrated in the Shi-Cho form developed by the NYJedi awhile back...  You have also blended what they call "the alphabet system" strike zones into this as well....     Those needing clarification, and a "different angle look" might want to check out those vids as well...   They should still be up on youtube...      ;D

Perfect for a beginner like myself.  I have delved a little into the arts of the German and Italian Longsword techniques, mostly stances and basic slashing moves.  I've wanted to learn more though martial arts programs, but with no money that's kinda difficult, do i really appreciate you sharing in-depth tutorials like this!
I've been practicing footwork mostly, and you showed me by example a couple things i was doing wrong... thanks for helping me improve, hope to see more of your videos! Now i just need a sparring partner so i can apply these in real-time... i'll save that for another thread, Thanks again!

Welcome!
You've come to the right place. You'll find plenty of crossover material that translates in both directions.
Point for being a fellow WMA practitioner.

Points are the Light or Dark side points right? If referring to these, my persona points towards the Light side, if not thanks for the recognition!
I'm planning to practice footwork and the movements from this video with my friend this weekend if i can reach them, i find it better to practice with a friends so we can help each other point out inconsistencies. 

Interesting video. The two downward diagonal strikes are done very similarily here, except our footwork is a bit more to the left or right of the opponent, while still facing him or her.
Just an idea: have you tried doing the spin one-handed and putting your left hand back on the hilt when pushing down? It's way faster, and it's what we teach the students after they manage to do it two-handed.

Well, this is not anything but a developmental exercise. It is a basic strike piece that is designed for novices and those with no experience so that they can pattern good mechanics and proper striking technique. The straight line walk imposed a tighter turn which is what most folks lack in this strike even if they have years of martial art experience. But, if you look carefully the step do go side to side in a three phase step (check out our footwork vid for more explanation.

As far as the letting go of the handle, we have a huge litany of techniques like that. The two handed assist is a very common longsword technique. The thing about it though is is really isn't faster. You can do the same thing without letting go with the saber, just pull the handle with your inferior hand as the strike goes through. That is in fact the way you should be performing all chopping motions. The cue I give is to her the hilt in half as you strike.

Another reason to keep the hands on the saber is for shoulder ROM. By lift in both you hands over your head you are getting good rotation of the shoulders. Letting go robs one of this making the training less efficient. The one-two handed assists are only done in certain forms at the Shii-Cho level. It won't be until Shien or Djem-So that the technique will be used in strategy.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.  I'll let the Masters confirm, but if you look at the Djem So videos that Master VorNach made, the strikes follow the feet as you describe, while the Shii-Cho strikes follow the opposite foot.  I actually noticed that as well.  IIRC it's just 2 ways of doing things.

Are asking why the honor sash finishes toward the back foot and the SunDjem Sai Cha ends at the lead foot?

If so, that is merely the reversal of the same movement. Sai being a slashing strike that needs to have follow through at the end. When striking down the swing must finnish to the open side. When going across, the step must push the saber through. If you did it the other way you would not produce any power and little movement in the saber.

As your front foot moves forward your hips turn to the inside, the same direction as the sai cut that ends in the trailing guard. The step should turn you to create the strike.

VorNach is an accomplished German Longsword player. This technique exists in that tradition. I do not remember what it is called, I will let him answer that one.

Here is another example of Shii-Cho that does follow the footwork I am describing.  Obviously it isn't the large swing strike that you are performing, but what do you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY9gT6W0Qk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY9gT6W0Qk)

That  is general
Sun's Shii-Cho. What is different about the foot work? I believe his is also based on Chinese sources at least in part.

the body should be behind each strike. The footwork in all swords styles is pretty much the same in this regard. If your shoulders and hips are together, the power should flow naturally. If you are going upward you need to step across the line to get a good horizontal strike. If you are swinging down it goes tot he open side and you have enough rotation to let it follow through.

Perhaps I do not understand your question.

If I'm understanding the question correctly this is zornhau.



Let me set this out and see if I understand the question.
The Sai strikes at the beginning of the form are effectively a Chinese version of the classic zornhau.

If you are standing in vom tag with your right foot back, (presuming you are right handed) as you begin your cut you either pass forward or triangle step forward with your right foot, cutting down through alber to finish in weschel or nebenhut (which is roughly the finishing point for the sai strike in the form).

The closest analogy I can come up with fight now for the sun djem sequence is to try this: starting in weschel with your right leg forward. Throw zwerchau (to finish in ochs on the right) as you take a wide advance to the right with your right foot. Throw zwerchau to the left but don't rotate your arms, you should end up cutting with the long edge, as you take a wide standard step to the left.

I'll try and get a short video clip together to show what I'm talking about, if we don't answer this sufficiently in the next few days.

There are some differences in how the German style executes these techniques as presented in Master Nonymous's tutorial but the foundation principles are the same.

Bang.

WaddaItellya? Point for getting Master VorNach to write this response.

Yes those picture do clear demonstrate. But, I am afraid my answer is the same.

The reason you step out like that is to allow for the follow through the target. because you are going from rear hip to front and in Shii-cho that corresponds to the forward leg, the amount of turn you can produce is limited. The step is how you produce the power to travel through the target buy putting the body behind the strike. The other way to produce the strike is to step all the way through to the other stance as in the Sarlacc Sweep or Ataru su ma.

The association with direction of strike and step is rather incidental as you should be able to produce the power in what ever stance and guard you are in.

Is this clearer?

Wow so easy. This is my form then. How good is it in saber combat and what would be a good fighting stance to start out with?

Take a look at our introductory stance and footwork video.
Choice of "fighting stance" is tactical, in the moment. Being familiar with footwork in general is necessary to develop a well rounded approach.

http://youtu.be/BnaRY-oPuRU (http://youtu.be/BnaRY-oPuRU)

Is Shii-Cho a Sith form? This is what I want to still use for when I go to cons and do parties and such. Do you think you could draw out an example of all the basic saber moves sometime? That'd help me out even more. Thanks if anyone doesn't mind doing that.

As we define it Shii-Cho is the introductory material that everyone learns, it's not Sith specific.
We have a the introductory material that we offer available through our YouTube channel as well as out homepage:
https://sites.google.com/site/terraprimelightsaberacademy/home

Does anyone know the Forms that the Sith favor over the forms the Jedi? Is there a concensus?

Is Juyo a Sith inspired form?

Shii-Cho would be fundamental to both wouldn't it? Not sure, I tend to go by Craig's work on this.

With your Shii-Cho; is it just introductory or do you practice it as a fully formed style?

(Clear video thankyou Master)

Kind Regards
Bluesky

juyo and djem so tend to be favoured by the sith due to the the ease of channeling rage, anger, and agression into their fighting style

with ataru, shien, niman, and soresu being favourites of the jedi

certain sith like Lord Scourge have been known to use soresu however

and makashi tends to be a favourite of both, really it just comes down to the individual fighter for the most part

i would say Shien is more toward the Sith end. They even have a Sith Shien varient.

i always understood shien to be more concerned with deflection of blasters than djem so was

a focus on defense just doesnt seem the sith way, lol more like smash through my enemies, seems more their style

And now for an episode of FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW!! This episode will focus on Soresu and Shien as seen through the eyes of the Jedi and the Sith

Soresu (Jedi) "I do not wish to harm my opponent(s). I will use their aggression against them and only strike if necessary"

(Sith) "I wish to crush my opponents, Body and Soul. I will give them the sense that they will breach my defenses, and when they grow arrogant, I will strike!"


Shien: (Jedi) "I will re-direct my opponents attacks back to them. I will end their violence with their violence"
(Sith) "You are not worthy to die by honorable combat. You shall die by the very bolts you fire!"


Also, Shien could be used as much for Melee as ranged, it was just based more on finesse and agility groups than Djem So was

Zren, think about it this way: Shii-Cho is the VERY basic of lightsaber combat taught to little kids as they enter the Jedi Temple. They learn this form, then as they grow, they may move into another form or stay with Shii-Cho a while longer in an attempt to fully master it. But just because you only see the Jedi Order using this form doesn't make it a Jedi only form.

Each of the forms are a set of moves. They are neither Jedi or Sith. It's the PERSON using the form that is Jedi or Sith. The forms themselves can be classified as Passive, Aggressive, or Defensive in nature, but FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, they do not belong to any side.

As for the move sets, here are your links:

Terra Prime YouTube page: http://www.youtube.com/user/TerraPrimeLightsaber?feature=g-user-u (http://www.youtube.com/user/TerraPrimeLightsaber?feature=g-user-u)

Play list of all Shii-Cho videos: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL89FD30F9F512416E (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL89FD30F9F512416E)

Each video lasts only a few minutes. Focus on videos 4, 5, and 6 first. These are the three strikes. If you have any questions, let us know.

Great videos, very informative and easy to follow.

This is very similar to the early Iaido katas I was taught, where you would lead with the Djem So as your draw cut, and then finish with the overhead strike. Main difference is they were done kneeling, but you see similar ideas with the footwork and the way the blade is pointed. My big questions are these:

1. Why drop the blade all the way back on the Sai strikes?
2. Why the flick on the Djem So? It seems a poor economy of movement.

Thanks in advance, hoping to learn.

I have a background in iai, so I think I can kind of help you...sorry guys for delving into alien lingo.

I'm assuming you're referring to the seitei iai set by which you are referring to the seiza kata like mae and ushiro. On the surface the sai cha in Shii-cho (beheading, or cleaving zone 1 from zone 4), which is what I'm guessing you're referring to as Djem So, looks like the nukutsuke in mae, but the mechanics are a bit different even if they grossly look the same. The target for the nukutsuke is to cut across the opponent's eyes and uses the body in a different way than in sai cha. Instead, think of the yokogiri (horizontal cut) that's the 2nd to last cut in #11, sougiri, except it's aimed at the neck instead of across the belly (which would be a sai tok in Shii-cho). How you use your fingers/hands in conjunction with your arms/hips is *slightly* different based on the fact that the cutting arc is wider with the yokogiri.

So tl;dr - Sai cha looks similar to a draw cut in that the general trajectory is the same, but I think there are subtle differences in how you employ your body.

As for the other questions:
1. I also struggled with this initially because it's such a major no-no in kenjutsu and iai, but I've seen this kind of cut before in longsword, where it's known as a Zornhau. Basically, you're making a fully dedicated swing with your entire body behind it and letting the blade follow through the entire trajectory - naturally you end up in the tail guard position.
2. Sorry can't help you with this one, I was kind of curious about this, too, but I understand the principle being demonstrated (not the flick, the cut).

Yes, I was referring exactly to a nukutsuke cut, now that you mention it though, it does make more sense. Really I was just commenting on the similarity between this beginning saber form and the beginning iai kata.

As to my questions, thanks for the help on the first one, it just felt... wrong from my experience... Still wondering about that second one. Is the flick meant as a block? Used like a jab in boxing to keep the opponent back? I can't imagine it's there for no reason, so I'm just wondering what that is.

Oh, now that I actually sat down and looked at it again, I think that first "flick" may be part of the sun djem though I could be wrong. There's a similar (in principle) movement in the jo kata called seigan...based on the timing you can displace the blade, go for the hilt itself, or if you feel like a stinker you can completely disarm the opponent if you put your whole body behind the deflect. Of course, the sun djem and sai cha could all be in one cut, too...

Just my guess.

That is correct. The :flick" is the sun djem or "disarming slash". in more practical terms it is a covering parry placing you on top of your opponents weapon and with a clear line to their neck and head.