Saber Forum

Parallels to archaic weapons
(medieval longsword/messer fighting (two handed and one handed saber play)).
There have been a variety of discussion about what sorts of martial arts could be adapted for use with lightsaber fighting styles. While I have some history with several East Asian styles of martial arts much of my current training revolves around the ongoing revival of Western martial arts (WMA), specifically material derived from German Fechtmeister (fight master/fencing master) of the 15th and 16th centuries, predominantly Johannes Liechtenauer.

From this information I’ve been reviewing concepts of the medieval longsword and the German messer (literal translation is knife, in practice a single edged, slightly curved one handed sword) and looking to adapt the principles and techniques from traditional sword arts for the Djem So form.

The medieval longsword, and medieval swords in general, despite the presentation in entertainment media, is not a clumsy metal stick best used to batter poor, hapless peasants into a puddle of goo. It is a weapon of considerable grace that requires more than a modicum of finesse in order to employ it to maximum effect. At the outset this may sound more in line with Form II: Makashi and there are indeed some parallel concepts but these are better compared to lighter weight, later period weapons such as the rapier.

I’ll start with some general fighting concept comparisons and in later posts talk about specific principles and techniques.

Concepts:
About Djem So we have information that talks about its aggressive powerful approach with the idea of turning an opponent's energy back against them.

   “Both Shien and Djem So were designed to use an opponent's attack against them, as evidenced by Shien's focus on returning blaster bolts to their origin and Djem So's emphasis on immediately striking back after a blow.”
   “Form V, [...] was created by Form III: Soresu masters who desired a more offensive style, since the defensive nature of Form III often led to prolonged combat...”
   “...a Djem So practitioner was not as passive. Immediately after defending against an opponent's strike, a Djem So stylist followed with an attack of their own, bringing the force of the opponent's own blow against them and seeking to dominate the duel. Djem So placed a heavy focus on brute strength and pure power, with wide, powerful strikes and parries followed immediately by a counterattack.”

This is one of the few, though significant, differences I’ve come across so far; the idea of a Djem So practitioner waiting for an opponent to strike before wading in to carve them into cutlets, while longsword fencers are taught to attack immediately to gain control of the initiative of the fight.

   Liechtenauer: “If you only strike after, you will have little joy from his art...”
Which basically means if you wait for your opponent to swing first you are starting the bout at a disadvantage. One of the basic lessons from the Liechtenauer tradition is you attack first and then you keep attacking, maintaining the initiative and keeping your opponent on the defensive.

And this is where the styles meet back up. With Djem So once you do begin your offensive process it’s relentless.
   “Some Jedi, noting its dedication to domination and strength, felt that Form V encouraged an inappropriate focus on controlling one's assailants.”
   “Unlike Soresu or Ataru, Djem So required the user not only to counterattack, but also to press the assault...”

Master Liechtenauer has a lot to say on this topic in regards to the longsword too:
    “and then you shall go at him quickly and with speed to the head and to the body.”
     “Be quick and steady without faltering, at once so that he cannot strike.”
   “And always be in motion, this will force the opponent to be on the defence and not be able to come to blows himself. For he who defends against strikes is always in greater danger than the one who strikes, since he must either defend or allow himself to be hit if he is to have a chance to strike a blow himself.”

So what we find so far is a strong similarity in ideas around aggression and situational control of the bout.
In later posts I’ll dig into the idea of turning an opponent's energy back against them while exploring individual techniques, where we’ll find some not very surprising overlaps.


Safe journey.




(Text quotes on German longsword are from an early interpretation of Liechtenauer’s fechtbuch,
Cod.HS.3227a, by Hanko Döbringer with the modern translation and transcription provided by David Lindholm, et. al. , 2005.
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Dobringer_A5_sidebyside.pdf (http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Dobringer_A5_sidebyside.pdf))

This is a great post VorNach.  I'm glad to finally see some longsword expertise put to use in examining Form V, since I've read that the two have a great deal of overlap.

The point about pressing the assault is definitely an important one - Djem So thrives on domination.  As you mentioned, the form was developed to adapt the concepts of Soresu in a more aggressive way, in order to avoid prolonging a fight unnecessarily.  I've always pegged Djem So as utilizing Soresu's tight defense in an offensive matter... which compromises the defense somewhat, but GREATLY increases the threat towards the opponent.  In doing this, shifting the momentum towards the opponent, you're basically undermining their ability to attack.  In some ways Djem So personifies the saying "the best defense is a good offense."

I'm a big fan of Djem So, and look forward to more input from you on it!

i think you can see pretty clearly on our sparring video, how aggressive the Longsword/Djem So philosophy is. Most of the time, I found myself retreating out of his range. Most of the time it's just trying to parry the attacks coming in leaving you no opportunity to launch a counter attack. Beingon the receiving end sure isn't as fun as being on the giving one.

Tons of knowledge being brought to bear here.

Great post! I think you definitely have the grasp of what Djem So is, and what it isn't... this is a great topic, and you nailed it!

Thanks for the positive feedback folks.
And look, I have more on the way. I wanted to start with some observations about the conceptual similarities after mulling over what I've written so far.

Applying longsword techniques to the lightsaber so far has been a very smooth transition. To date the most significant difference I've been working to sort out is the structure of the tools; there is no cross guard on a lightsaber. As has been mentioned elsewhere in the forums this can present a challenge to some of the techniques with the longsword that rely on cross guard. After some free-play experiments I can say that it is possible to adapt the lightsaber to many of those techniques and, given the rich variety of possible techniques available, this has not had a noticeable negative impact on my application of longsword style to the lightsaber.
I'll likely come back to this when I examine some individual techniques that need tweeking in order to remain effective under these circumstances.


Now today's discussion.

"Djem So placed a heavy focus on brute strength and pure power, with wide, powerful strikes and parries followed immediately by a counterattack.
Unlike Soresu or Ataru, Djem So required the user not only to counterattack, but also to press the assault,...."

"you with a good first strike shall close in without fear or hesitation and strike at the openings, to the head and to the body, regardless whether you hit or miss you will confuse the opponent and put fear into him, so that the he does not know what to do against you. Then before the opponent can gather himself and come back, you shall do the after strike so that he will have to defend yet again and not be able to strike himself."

As Djem So is presented as an aggressive Form within the panoply of Lightsaber forms, so to is the longsword an aggressive style. One of the basic concepts of the longsword is to attack first and continue doing so to maintain the initiative, keeping your opponent on the defensive and responding to your techniques. On a side note, this is hard to do! Maintaining the constant flow of attacks, while controlling your opponents weapon takes a lot of focus and a lot of energy. And there's something about a relentless attack that, at least for me at this point in my training, seems to be counter to the ebb and flow of a bout. I think this is predominantly me imposing a perspective on myself that isn't really there but getting past that is a challenge, fun but a challenge.
In any case....


In addition the longsword combatant is not supposed to "just parry", which would surrender the initiative. Rather each movement is an attack or maneuver that breaches the opponent's guard so the motion can continue into an attack. The defensive side of the longsword is this ongoing series of attacks. Each of your attacks is also a defensive posture which may deflect, block, redirect or otherwise foil whatever attack the opponent is throwing out. We have a sample of this in an earlier video:
http://youtu.be/iIf4n5tq4tU (http://youtu.be/iIf4n5tq4tU). Roll ahead to near the ending;
from 07:44 to 07:48 we are both attacking to each others heads. The idea here is the blades would intersect and negate the initial contact, which in turn leads to further explorations in each others defenses.
Again at 07:51 I throw a strong downward cut to Darth N's head as I pass back. The step back is not very Djem So but the concept of attacking as a defense is demonstrated at that point as I am intersecting Darth N's blade and keeping my blade between us, to discourage an aggressive advance, as I move out of range.
Both styles reflect an aggressive mindset in order to take control of the engagement.


Taking a step in another direction I wanted to briefly discuss footwork.
Footwork is an essential element, a fundamental aspect of martial arts. Sadly in my initial read through much of the available lightsaber combat material I found that while footwork is mentioned in each of the forms it’s given pretty short shrift. I could probably go on about footwork as an entire thread unto itself however Darth Nonymous has already gotten the ball rolling (http://youtu.be/BnaRY-oPuRU (http://youtu.be/BnaRY-oPuRU)).
For the time being I’ll another of Master Liechtenauer’s comments, this time on footwork.
“Also know that when you fence with another you should step with caution and be sure in the steps as if you were standing on a scale and adapt accordingly if you go forward or backward.”

Djem So is said to move very little in comparison to other Forms:
"Whereas a failing of Shien was its weakness against a single opponent Djem So was known for having a lack of mobility."

In longsword we are moving quite a bit. Almost every action involves some kind of step and it’s often quite dynamic:
"When you step or leap in to close with the opponent as soon as you see that you can reach him with step or leap, then you shall close with strikes to the openings...."

However when I looked at this in comparison to the maneuvers that are described as being augmented by the Force for some of the other Forms, the footwork derived from longsword really is fairly sedate and minimal. So from the perspective of storytelling, role play and perhaps some choreographed options Djem So might appear to be using minimal movement. For the real world practitioner, however, expect that the footwork is going to be a significant, vital part of your training. Go do some cardio training. Like saber fighting....

And that is all for today. Next time I'm on I think I'll have some discussion of individual techniques to compare.
Safe journey.

I've been doing a lot of writing without a lot of demonstrating in this thread so far.
I could probably go on writing about this for a long time. However I would also like to actual show some of what I'm talking about.
I'll be putting together some kind of graphics display in the near future, not sure if it will be video or stills yet.
In the meanwhile is there interest in my continuing to be somewhat pedantic in my break down and comparison?
I still have a lot of text material I could cover if there's enough interest.

I for one would love to see what you have down. Extremely detailed research and a wealth of knowledge.

This is all really good information. In some of the earliest videos i took and showed to a couple of the masters, they said my bladework looked very much to be a half and half mix of soresu and djem so, while my primary sparring partner looked pure djem so to their eyes. Nice to read a little bit more on the form from someone with actual longsword experience.

A word on aggression.
     “When you have done the first strike then you shall without any delay do the following strike and you should also stay in motion and do one thing after another. If the first attack does not work then the second, the third or the fourth will hit, and you shall not let the opponent come to blows.”

While there is often an assumption, likely based on the text descriptions of Djem So, that the purpose of the aggression and power of the form is to demolish one's opponent. It is quite possible to engage an opponent in this Form using the marks of contact "sun djem" and "shiin" in an aggressive fashion and still win the bout without committing serious harm. Of course the power of the Form also lends itself to some of the more significant Marks quite easily.
Surprise, surprise we can draw some parallels to the longsword here as well. Techniques like the Crooked Strike and the Scalper can be done in a fashion to cause debilitating but non-crippling and non-mortal injuries. I've even found references to these concepts in the literature; the flick (Schnall) and the tag-hit (Zeckrur) are described as small attacks with the tip or flat of the blade.



"The characteristic Djem So attack was dubbed the "Falling Avalanche," an overhand power blow that crashed down upon an opponent with exceptional force."
The classic longsword opening is a high guard very similar to this description, called "Vom Tag" (from the roof), from which a strong downward cut is launched, called zornhau, the wrath cut.

(http://i.imgur.com/CmM7p.png) (http://imgur.com/CmM7p)  (http://i.imgur.com/nfPug.png) (http://imgur.com/nfPug)  (http://i.imgur.com/0MMfo.png) (http://imgur.com/0MMfo)


One of the basic concepts discussed in longsword is about being "strong or weak" (sterke oder swach) when in the bind at the blade. This is not a value judgement about you or a literal comment on your strength. This is tied into the concept of "feeling" (fühlen) or sensitivity, which I'll come back to when we move on to the "Fluid Riposte".
Being strong in the bind is to have commitment to the action and is usually a part of an over powering cut (durchbrechen) where you have a mechanical/positional advantage allowing you to deliver your cut to the target while driving their blade out of line. It can also be a prelude to a sudden closing motion (einlauffen), which can lead to inside-blade work or grappling.

"Djem So users also employed a tactic known as the "Fluid Riposte," which involved a smooth transition from parrying an attack to a counterstrike."
The principle of the "Fluid Riposte" is a very useful concept because it's so practical. Conveniently it's also a great description of a multitude of longsword techniques.
Coming back to the idea of  "feeling" (fühlen) or sensitivity when in the bind, this is one of those concepts that's easy to describe and rather challenging to pull off.

At the time of contact with your opponent you "feel" their level of commitment in the bind. Being strong usually involves overpowering to push through the opposing blade, sweep it aside or otherwise control the opponents blade position and direction from a position of strength (How very Djem So!). Being weak in the bind is not a bad thing, it's just another perspective and is usually a good thing when dealing with someone who is stronger in the bind than you. Weak does not mean you have no commitment to the action or that you are not maintaining solid form or even being strong in the bind. Weak in this case means being fluid enough (Fluid Riposte !) to redirect your opponent and allow their energy to travel off in another direction, taking their blade out of line while yours comes into line and (hopefully for you)  finishes the encounter. This can take a number of forms; redirecting the blades direction of travel to pass above you, slipping under and changing your cut to a thrust, maintaining contact and winding around their blade to attack from the other side, using the energy of their strike to accelerate your own blade around into a counter strike. There are a host of opportunities.

If both combatants are strong or both are weak at the bind you have some decisions to make and not a lot of time to make them. There are a number of other considerations including things like; where the point of contact is on each blade, relative position of your body and strong lines to those of your opponent, the stance and guard position* you are in and what attack you just used.

*(Yes, when throwing an attack you will be in some variation of a guard position, guard stances are points of transition moved through during the engagement. That will be another post, hopefully with video.)

The fun happens when both you and your opponent are practicing these principles and you end up in a flowing flurry of strike-counter-counter-counter-counter-finish.

He who can defend himself with these, he should be praised, his skill rewards him well.
Thereupon we come to the right grounding That is the rollicking fighter’s art!" - J. Liechtenauer 

Many of the interpretations and translations of German terminology I used in this post are courtesy of Dr. Jeffrey L. Forgeng, Jeffrey D. Lord, Mark J. Millman and William R. Short of the Higgens Arms Museum Sword Guild. http://www.higginssword.org (http://www.higginssword.org)

Alright, a unexpected scheduling glitch left me with some time, space, sword and my handy tablet with it's mediocre video camera.
So here is an experiment in video with some of the concepts I've been reviewing in this thread.

Having discussed the similarities between medieval longsword and the Djem So form for a while I have now created a simple demonstration of basic guard positions that (IMO) Djem So practitioners would employ to protect the 6 target zones. I must no admit that I do not yet own an Ultra Saber (sorrow! anguish!) so this was shot with one of my polypropylene longsword wasters. It doesn't glow but the contrast against the white background made for reasonable visibility.

Initially the Djem So student would progress between these various positions, becoming comfortable with transition from one to another until a smooth transition from any point to another point is achieved. Future steps will include (probably as videos in the near future) footwork combined with blade work, learning attacks and techniques that apply to the Djem So principles, learning the transitions between the guard positions with the attacks and techniques that emphasize the Djem So principles of aggression and control.

Enjoy.

http://youtu.be/tLqPVIWcU9E (http://youtu.be/tLqPVIWcU9E)

This is my first foray into solo video creation and editing so your constructive feedback would be greatly appreciated.

ps- This is an "Unlisted" YouTube video. Thanks to the generous support and assistance of Darth Nonymous I hope to have a cleaner, more elaborate version for a more public presentation.

I like it! Also you look like a younger Clay from Sons of Anarchy... Just saying, it's a good look.

Nice stuff. I can't wait to see more of what you have come have come up with Friday!

What I find great about it is it is looking like a natural extension of the parrying theory of Shii-Cho. I think Djem SO fan s will benefit from it.

I also like the names; "Eye of the Krayt". Awesome.

That's a new one. Usually I get compared to Chuck Norris (when I have my beard) or John Cougar Mellencamp.



Well, you've set the bar (Hutt Slide, Dewback stance....) and it ties it into the setting a bit more than medieval German terminology would.
With that being said since there's so little information about possible techniques and maneuvers available I was liberal in my addition to the lexicon. Some things I'm introducing:

The Volcano, an attack concept like "Falling Avalanche" to provide some additional fighting options.

An additional set of guard positions (some of which have already been mentioned) which are also transition points between different techniques and expand on the Zone guards:

Finishing guard - a low guard and the end of a powerful downward strike.
Waiting Guard - another low guard which is the end of some of the angled strikes used to circumvent an opponents defenses.
Quiescent guard - The typical end point of the Falling Avalanche and the typical starting point for Volcano techniques. Also used to lure in the unwary.
Krayt's eye - Zone 1 High guard protecting you and threatening your opponent with Shiak techniques (stabbing.) Also the end and starting point for Zone 1 cuts from the sides.
Krayt's crest - Zone 1 guard, one of the rare techniques that is not offensive, but it is useful for setting up an opponent for a counter-attack
Krayt's claw - Zone 2 or 3 guard which also threatens with Shiak techniques
Krayt's horn  - Most used as a training transition between attacks from above & below. Also a threatening (physically and psychologically) position. Not the strongest to launch an attack from but it can give you room to maneuver.

Actual demonstrations of these will be forthcoming.

Ok, this is some fine longsword tech nique and I think a very good an along for Djem So. I also like the fact that they are using the same protective gloves as we do ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIKMPIFJkzk#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIKMPIFJkzk#ws)

Fascinating video!  I love seeing this longsword stuff, it really makes me want to get involved in it.

You should try it sometime. I think fencers like you are well suited to it and would probably like it. It sure is fun.

Yeah, those guys are some of the best I've seen.




http://www.communitywalk.com/THE-HEMA-ALLIANCE-Training-Partner-Finder (http://www.communitywalk.com/THE-HEMA-ALLIANCE-Training-Partner-Finder)
http://www.communitywalk.com/map/index/1033322 (http://www.communitywalk.com/map/index/1033322)

Hmmm, the North Jersey one is only about an hour away... not bad.  Amusingly enough, the South Jersey one is right near where I grew up!

Alright, I dropped this link over in the Saberfit challenge but since it's a Djem So video I wanted to include it here as well.
This was done mostly to learn a bit about video editing with Windows Movie Maker but it's also a basic set of steps for Djem So practioners to consider.

http://youtu.be/pPYEmdTUI18 (http://youtu.be/pPYEmdTUI18)

Have fun.

I liked the video, and think it was nicely done. The music was awesome.

I watched it twice so far (partly to watch footwork and partly to listen to the music).

So, Falling Avalanche is a dropping strike? What zones do you target?

With the rising strike Volcano, is this just a reversal of the Falling Avalanche? Or do you target different zones?

And what is the difference between lower guard and waiting guard? And what is quiescent guard?

I'm sorry for so many questions...

Waiting and Quiescent are the names of 2 long sword guards I've adapted for use with Djem So.
They are both low guards (the blade is at or below waist level, though this is rather arbitrary).

The Volcano I invented for use with the form because the available material only describes one technique o falling avalanche).

More information is on the way with more details too, Thanks for being interested and keep asking questions!

Alright, some of these are indirectly answered earlier in this thread but I'll consolidate the information here.


Generally this is targeted towards the head and shoulders. If you use the Marks of Contact as a guide Falling Avalanche can be applied to Cho Sun (amputate dominant/weapon arm), Cho Mok (amputate non-dominant arm), Sai Cha (remove the head), or Sai Tok (cut the body in half, vertically from the head). For practice purposes if you are using Sai Cha your end guard position will be the Finishing guard while the other techniques will usually leave you in the Quiescent guard.
With some finesse you could target the the hands and forearms with less lethal intent; Disarm with Sun djem by attacking your opponents weapon, use Shiim (light tap/poke which could also be directed at the head and upper arms) or if lopping things off is your cup of tea target, the weapon hand with Cho mai (amputate the weapon hand. --poor Luke).



No and yes.
You can target the same or different zones going back up as you did coming down. If your initial strike missed you're going to want to do this pretty quickly because odds are good your opponent is not waiting for you to recover.

To be a bit more informative rising strikes, as demonstrated here, are done with the "short edge" (I know, lightsabers have no edges but it's the terminology I'm used to) or the back edge of the weapon. It's possible to do a rising strike with the long edge but that requires twisting your arms and rotating the weapon, which can take a little time. A short edge strike can happen immediately from the end of a downward cut. They won't have as much power as a regular cut but the targets here are most often the arms and hands, which are more delicate and don't require as much impact to damage. These are also often used as setup for a stab or thrust attack from a low angle. Few things will grab someones attention like something nasty approaching their intestines at a dangerous velocity.



"Lower guard" is a general reference to positions where the blade is held low, usually at or below the level of your own waist. So the Waiting, Finishing & Quiescent guards are all low guards. You can refer back to this video http://youtu.be/tLqPVIWcU9E (http://youtu.be/tLqPVIWcU9E) starting at 01:04 for examples of Waiting and Finishing guards.
This is a side view of the  Quiescent guard:
http://i.imgur.com/0MMfo.png (http://i.imgur.com/0MMfo.png)



Please do not apologize for honest curiosity and a desire to learn.  :)
You do a great service by helping motivate me to pay close attention to what I am demonstrating and writing, in order to be as clear and accurate as I can.

This video was not meant to be a comprehensive examination of techniques but it has certainly begun to evolve into that. As I become more familiar with my video editing I'll be able to post some more comprehensive videos.

Thank you very much for the clarifications. As I read your responses and go back to watch the videos, I can now see the answers to my questions. I'm very grateful to you for your responses!

Darth_Nonymous and I were having a conversation yesterday afternoon about the volume of videos people have been willing to share of late, both instructional and presentational requests for suggestions.
This is a pretty amazing community where so many people are willing to put themselves out in the public eye to both offer information and ask for feedback.
A common theme we have noticed relates to a combination of topics; targeting, guard positions and safety gear (are you tired of hearing us talk about safety gear yet because we’ll keep going.)

Guards are a significant foundation point for martial arts training and this is no less important in weapon based arts. They provide a position from which to launch a technique, a place to finish after a technique and, as the student increases their level of skill the guards provide transition points as one moves through different techniques.
An element we noted is a distinct lack of high guards; positions that, often, put the sword at or above the collar bone, protect the head and neck and are common positions from which to launch an attack on an opponent’s head, neck and upper torso.

There is positive and negative in this observation. The positive is we don’t see a lot of people using any kind of safety gear on their heads; no masks or even safety goggles, so with this low-line approach they are less likely to cause head injuries. This is only a limited positive though because despite the emphasis on technique that take place and target below the head accidents do happen. This also limits training opportunities and can even impart poor form and habits on the combatant.

The head is a common target in sword based martial arts, just look at the competitive videos we’ve been posting. The majority of the combat takes place with the hands and weapon held high, targeting the head, neck and upper torso. There is a simple piece of geometry here that has an impact on this process. If I cut at my partner’s waist it’s a longer distance for my weapon to travel than my partner’s attack at my head.

Behold, my awesome artistic skills….
(http://i.imgur.com/rsTFJ.png) (http://imgur.com/rsTFJ)

By limiting your targeting you limit your ability to train the full complement of skills and potentially develop bad habits. I’ve seen far too many people who practice without head protection over time begin  leaning forward a little bit, then a little more, trying to get a little more reach to target their partners torso and legs. The end result is they are using poor posture, standing off balance, self-limiting their techniques and sometimes even dropping their heads closer to the attacks their partner is making, thus putting themselves even more into harm’s way.
It’s for the best that people are avoiding each others heads when not wearing appropriate fighting gear (which in comparison to a new lightsaber is pretty reasonably priced):

http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Foil-Practice-Sabre-fencing/dp/B0002Y9GX6 (http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Foil-Practice-Sabre-fencing/dp/B0002Y9GX6)
http://www.amazon.com/Paintball-Xtreme-Rage-Single-Anti-Fog/dp/B0014UWJJ0/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1340264046&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=feacning+mask (http://www.amazon.com/Paintball-Xtreme-Rage-Single-Anti-Fog/dp/B0014UWJJ0/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1340264046&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=feacning+mask)
 - even this would be better than nothing, and it might even be workable with lightsaber combat.

and I won’t gainsay being cautious over reckless however the benefits of having proper protection are enormous in terms of a combatants ability to develop and train the full range of options open to them and learn to apply them in a more combat oriented setting. 

Let me emphasize that the work and progress people are doing is spectacular. Non-contact training is the foundation to developing good form and the progress that many people are showing is proof of their dedication and commitment. The next step is to be able to apply those same training habits in a combative setting, without using the limitations presented by not having a safe (or as safe as you can make a combative activity at least) way to practice the full range of the form in study.

You can do solo practice on the whole range of techniques day and night but until you start working against another person you’re going to be missing some incredibly valuable material and insight.

Stay safe, practice hard, have fun.

Bad habits can be formed by limiting your striking targets, but really by sparring in general you can develop bad habits.

I've done a martial arts for years that doesn't allow face contact... and really any time you spar you aren't, or shouldn't be going full force with intent to do harm.

So my first (and only) time I got jumped in a bad part of town by two guys, I realized about half way through the fight... I wasn't fighting, I was sparring, only going about 80%... Once I realized that I had to correct that, because they were trying to actually hurt me. So I realized that my sparring is different from what I do when I'm actually in a fight for my life.

I'm not saying that maximizing your realism in training isn't smart, I am saying that proper instruction can prepare you for these things, and squash bad habits before they become a habit.

My Sensei was amazing at this... The refinement he instruct to you would be miniscule, but the difference would be absolutely noticeable. I mean my basic punch was getting corrected for years. It wasn't big things, it was always the smallest little thing. Yet now my punch mechanics are pretty good.

I didn't get that from sparring, I got that from proper instruction. I also think that being taught a combat mindset is another key to the equation. Learning tactics as well as techniques.

Anyways, I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just saying that if you don't have headgear, and you have to train at 40%; you can still get quality training, and avoid developing bad habits.

Well,  a few things from my perspective teaching at multiple levels and multiple ages:

With sparring, if you do not have good instruction, you will be learning to fight, not necessarily well. But that's not really sparring. That's play fighting. Sparring is a mindful experience and no, you do not have to go 100%. In fact that's not even really what we are talking about.

I understand about martial arts not allowing face contact, but you had the benefit of a teacher reminding you to guard your face, I assume. But what if there is no instructor, experienced practitioner, or other training partner. You must rely on your training and how good it was. Limiting your targets are fine once you know them all and can cover your own. My personal opinion, no one should be doing any type of free form anything until at least a year into training under professional supervision. Some may rush it. MMA folks, judo, TaeKwanDo go right into the competitive aspect because they are primarily sports. But, isn't one of the Jedi traits "patience"?

What We are noticing is that there is little consideration of the upper half of the body with many folks showing their free forms. It is obvious to VorNach and I that it is most likely because they have never had a reason to guard up there. The net effect is what the Chinese call "Flower Fist, Embroidered leg", which means, looks good, not much use. The reality of this stuff is that taking it slow and measured and not trying to leap right into dueling and free forms.

The reason we mention this is that most of these people do not have access to professional instruction and are doing this completely unsupervised. This is a concern to us as we want to keep everyone safe and uninjured. I am of the rather starch opinion that head gear and gloves are the bare minimum of protection for dueling especially with folks who have little or no training or experience.

We are also seeing a lot of swinging for the blades, which is what can cause accidental injury if and when they miss. These are all things that if I was instructing them in person I could repeat ad nuaseum as they practiced, but as I said, we have no direct access to them.

Maybe because most folks don't have to deal with insurance like I do.  :P

Oh definitely, and most people don't have an instructor telling them how to hold their blade or to be on guard. By bringing it up though here on the forums my guess is that many people will at least have it on their minds now. Well those that read it will anyways.

It also seems like Djem So often favors a high guard anyways

This is me. 100%. This is why I grab hold of the content here and absorb every aspect, every suggestion, and be as safe as I can. I have found that my own personal problem is that I have a depth perception problem with my eyes, so I can't gauge accurately where my blade is at. Because of this, I have to be extra careful and hold back. It's also partly why I train alone.

Lucien, remember when we met and you were talking to me about reach? I fully understand exactly what you meant. If just hard for me to put it into practice. It takes time and I am sure I will learn, but it'll be slower than those who have professional instruction.

Thinking about taking a few Kendo classes at the San Diego Kendo Club at SDSU. Just need to find some time for it. Hoping this will help in the long run.

Proper instruction certainly can help overcome some of the shortcomings that are part of a practice/training setting. I wouldn't dream of encouraging anyone to go full force in a practice setting, except possibly for some very limited situations. However the closer you can come in practice to full application the more developed your technique will become. The circumstances of your training environment will dictate what the safest approach is.

Very early in my martial arts "career" I was taking a tai-ji class in high school, being taught by instructors from a local martial arts school. It was taught in my high school so I would show up in my street clothes (small school, no gym, no lockers). At one point my teacher talked for awhile about "proper clothing" (sweats or some such) and how by not wearing them I was limiting my progress because I could not practice things through their full range of motion.


Absolutely, with good instruction you can avoid bad habits however if you're limiting what applications you practice you're also missing out on a significant part of the style.
To elaborate on Darth_Nonymous' comment: "Limiting your targets are fine once you know them all and can cover your own. "
If you don't practice a technique it will be difficult to develop it and challenging to overcome it when it's used against you.

The point of my original post was two-fold:
Encourage people to invest in safety gear (I will never tire of banging this particular drum).
By having safety gear allow them to practice and develop their style more comprehensively.


The horse is at the watering trough....   :)


My interpretation certainly does though I'm going to be bringing some focus to low guards in the near future as well.

Here is a little something I wrote as a lark.


"Fifth Formula: Shien Djem So- Krayt Dragon

The Spoken Force is the way of the Krayt Dragon. Listen with your whole being to hear the question before it is asked. Speak the answer before the enemy knows the question.

Shien to yell. Bring your fight to the enemy that throws rocks. Once the rock is thrown, it is anyone’s weapon.

Djem So to Debate. Engage your enemy in conversation at saber edge. Point counter point, but attack his argument before he makes it."

My philosophical underpinning, that I am using for Form V. I am focusing more on Shien, the earlier of the two incarnations.

To debate you need some language skills. Here is some starting vocabulary.

http://youtu.be/Se23Cdmlxwo (http://youtu.be/Se23Cdmlxwo)

That was an awesome video! I like the how the strikes all start up high. There's something elegant but beastly about this form. I can't wait to see more! Point to you sir!

And we're just getting started. After the Avalanche comes the Volcano. After all we can't leave our blade sitting down in those low lines. There are more interesting and effective ways to bring it back in line than just lifting it back into the starting guard. Djem So dominates the fight, so whenever we move the blade it is with the intent to attack, to take and maintain control of the encounter.




Beastly!  ;D (a point to you sir for an excellent description !)
Nice description for a style that I often describe as "surprisingly elegant and requiring more finesse than one might think."
But also rather accurate when you consider the source weapon and what it could do to an unarmored opponent.

NOTE: This is an image of a sword wound. It's been stitched up so there's no blood or gore but it might still be startling for some people. Please consider this and who is around before you click on the link:
http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/images/sword-injury.jpg (http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/images/sword-injury.jpg)

That is a sword injury?! I hope that wasn't you! That looks awful!

No, not me. It's a picture posted at the Sword Buyers Guide website (http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com (http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com)).
I think it's too encourage playing in a safe fashion with your weapons of choice, or maybe it's just to scare people.

Safety is paramount, and that pic proves it.  Also, Sword Buyers Guide is a great site... I love reading their reviews and have seriously almost bought a LOT of their recommended swords lol.

Actually, I did buy one... the Hanwei Side Sword.  It's amazing.

I wouldn't recommend practicing with/on other people with sharp swords, even in real armor. Too much potential for tragic consequences.
Even without sharps though use safety gear. Even with light, blunt, plastic sword blades use safety gear.
The diameter of the tip of an Ultra Saber is small enough to fit inside the eye socket.

Oh absolutely, I second this wholeheartedly.  Even Ultrasabers blades warrant protective equipment, let alone metal weapons... and sharp weapons are never an acceptable option.

So how do we get more people to actually *use* safety gear?
Master Nonymous and I take every opportunity to encourage, suggest, hint, state-outright, etc. that it's more than just a good idea.
However, this is getting rather off topic.

Coming soon the followup to the Falling Avalanche 1st Acceleration, The Volcano.

Why do we not have a safety thread?! May have to start one.


Can't wait!!

I started one a month or two ago but it did not get any traction.
It's worth continuing to spread the message though.

Ask and you shall receive.

Djem So, 2nd Acceleration, The Volcano.

http://youtu.be/pT75beaV-ZA (http://youtu.be/pT75beaV-ZA)

This was done primarily for my addition to the Saberfit Challenge this week.
However it's also something of a comment on the importance of developing familiarity with techniques; guards, strikes and the transitions between.

http://youtu.be/AfqfUwWtnU0 (http://youtu.be/AfqfUwWtnU0)

And here's why we don't want to do tutorials when the sun is going down.
This is almost completely useless as a tutorial, however it does show off the cool Adegan Silver of my still rather new Dominix v3.

http://youtu.be/EriQPJCsxbM (http://youtu.be/EriQPJCsxbM)

This is also a short introduction to the idea of the Djem So "Fluid Riposte":
"Djem So users also employed a tactic known as the "Fluid Riposte," which involved a smooth transition from parrying an attack to a counterstrike."

If you look closely the last few techniques are also a teaser of sorts to one-handed Djem So techniques.

At some point in the near-ish future I'll re-post these in better light. So while the amazing Adegan Silver will not be as visible it might actually be instructive.

NEw djem So vid here:
http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=8471.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=8471.0)

Thanks to the generous efforts of Master Nonymous some of the pieces of Djem So I've been pulling together have been TerraPrimed; given a lot of polish and cleaned up the presentation so it's more clear.

Dude.  Dude.  DUDE.

I've been DYING to see someone apply WMA/Longsword techniques into Djem So; it's something I'd been experimenting with myself for a long time (I've been fooling around with lightsaber Forms over on the Saberwars forums for a few years now), but never really felt I had the experience or expertise to really be able to contribute.  So to see someone who's done their homework and can really express both the finesse and ferocity of the Longsword into Djem So is just.........just.........damn, dude, you have really made my day.

I'll try to have some more substantial notes and comments when I'm finished weeping with joy.

Thanks for the kind words Bazzard, it's motivating to read such enthusiasm.
There's more on the way too.

Haven't seen much activity in here for a bit.  I will say I'm very interested in this Form as well.  And I'm glad for the knowledge behind the technique that uses the back side of the blade on an upward stroke (the name escapes me).  I'd always kinda wondered if there was a more effective way to go from the end of a downward slash to bringing the blade back up besides just returning to a guard position.

Funny you should bring this up. I just finished planning out the next Acceleration to highlight concepts around the use of the Fluid Riposte. I'm going to try and get some video shot in the next week for that.
If there is any other information you're interested in please ask. If it wasn't apparent by this thread alone I am quite happy to expound on these topics.



Generally it's called a cut with the false or short edge.
There are a host of ways to move from lower guards / end points of downward cuts that involved using the long and short edge and various striking angles.
Watch for future tutorial videos for more examples.

One other question that's probably incredibly simple.  All the videos and such I've seen for this Form (and most of the others, save for spins) seem to use predominately two-handed grips.  Is there ever a time when it would be beneficial to switch to a one-hand grip?  possibly for more reach or something?

The short answer is yes.
You can get more extension one handed, you can also present a smaller target area by turning more sideways.
There are also times where you could switch to a one hand grip to do so grappling-at-the-sword techniques, should you wind up that close to your opponent.

One of the things I've had percolating in my mind is 1 one-handed version of Djem So, which in my (not so very) copious spare time I'll eventually get down in video format.

I really look forward to seeing that.  It'll help me better integrate Djem So into my overall approach, which is currently much more Makashi focused.  Thanks VorNach!

Thanks!  One-handed Djem So sounds really interesting as well.  Personally I'm more curious about the feasibility of combining one- and two-handed techniques.  I've found that, at least for me, some of the techniques seem to flow more smoothly if I shift from 2 to 1 handed and back again.  Maybe it's just because I'm tall and lanky or something. 

Would you be willing to post some video examples?

Sure.  Mainly it seems to be on the transition from the Falling Avalanche through the Quiescent Guard and into a Trailing Guard.   Its definitely more noticable on the right side (I'm right-handed if it matters) than the left. 

My right shoulder is kinda screwy from pitching all through little league and such.  That might be the issue. 

Well sadly, my phone's battery bit the dust so no video tonight.  I'll try to get some tomorrow once it's all charged and such. 

At your convenience.
The specific example you reference I would suggest keeping both hands on the hilt. You're driving down with a fair bit of power and the intent is to drive through/displace whatever gets in the way. Taking a hand of the hilt in mid-motion could introduce some instability in the strike. However looking at what you're doing will be helpful, when you have a chance.

It's not so much during the strike as it is after the strike when I go to transition to the next guard position.  I feel like my shoulder doesn't rotate into it like it should.  I'm not sure it'll show up in a video but I'll get some video tonight hopefully.

Got a little work in tonight.  As I said in the Saberfit Challenge, I'm going to work on my phone stand so you can see my feet as well.

At about 40 seconds there's 2 spots once I hit the end of the downward swing that my shoulder pops a bit.  Can't really see it in the video except that there's a slight hesitation. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9_7AbbuZ_Q&feature=plcp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9_7AbbuZ_Q&feature=plcp)

I really appreciate your sharing your work with all of us.
I'm not seeing the hitch in your shoulder. However it does appear that you are driving the saber with your arms, primarily your forearms and wrists.
the power comes from your body (maybe we could come up with a video on generating power) and flows out through your arms.
Take a look at this video and watch how the saber is moved by the body instead of moving independently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sDxh5p8uKw#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sDxh5p8uKw#ws)
If this is not clear I apologize; it's 4am and I'm getting a little tired.

You're doing good work and the basic structure is coming together.

Thank you!!  I would watch the crap out of a video on generating power using the body.  I still don't completely understand, but I'm thinking it looks a lot like how you generate bat speed or clubhead speed with a baseball/golf swing.  Is that a fitting analogy?   Also, in Trajectory 3, is the stomping cho designed to provide more power (like stepping into a baseball swing), or confuse an opponent?  

Thanks again!  I made a new stand for my phone, so I'll try to get more video over the weekend, time permitting.

Quick edit.  I'm watching the Ataru 2 video, and at about 27 minutes you demonstrate a lock wherein Master Nonymous (near as I can tell) falls to one knee on purpose in order to over balance the opponent and gain a killing blow.  This seems like a very Djem So technique to me.  Is that actually what was being shown, or just a way to adapt to an opponents attack?

That particular example was both a tool to learn how to ground in the face of an overbearing attack and a method for avoiding and counter-attacking against a powerful overhand attack.
It moves you out of line from the attack, gives you a solid base to reduce the chance of being knocked over and sets up a quick counter attack.
It does have very Djem So-ish attributes.

Only had a few minutes tonight before the storms rolled in, but I got what I could.  I was focusing on using my body more.  Not sure if it worked or not, but it definitely felt weird.  I also think I may be going too fast.  Thinking about slowing it down next time.  

Also, should I keep cross-posting these here and on the Saberfit challenge?  Or just choose one and stick with it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFYcYFxx8Jc# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFYcYFxx8Jc#)

You seem to be almost over-concious of using your body, try to loosen up a bit.
I had this problem when I started and I found that loosening up and stretching before practising helped me feel more natural. You may find that just going over a few basic strikes over and over will be more beneficial rather than going through a sequence at this stage. Rotate at your hips, relax a bit, and power the strikes with your shoulders.
I noticed that you seem to be practising on a hill, you would be better off practising on flatter ground to improve your sense of balance.

In response to your second question, I would post these on the Saberfit thread unless it is specifically Djem-So related :)

@Oramac:  Well for one thing, your second video does look quite a bit better.  Smoother, with more power generated by the rotation of the body.  Loosening up will come in time, as you repeat the movements and become more comfortable using them.  If you need to, take it slower - one cut at a time, making sure you perform the cut correctly - and then speed up once you become proficient.  If anything, the movements you're practicing are more the basics of Shii-Cho, which is a very good place to start in order to learn these techniques.  It's your preference though!

Definitely slow down a bit more. Good form right now is much more important than speed. Good form will lead to speed and power.
You have improved over the last video post; your making progress in generating power from your body, especially on the down cuts. I'm also seeing more connection between your torso and the high side to side cuts.

Something you might want to try when slowing down a bit: Delivering one cut with one step, taking your time. Drop your focus from your arms down to your waist. As your hips turn, keep your shoulders over them and let that motion drive your arms.



The Shii-Cho videos will provide examples of the kind of body coordination I'm referring to.
Look here starting at 1:37
http://youtu.be/lsFZgDDd2No (http://youtu.be/lsFZgDDd2No)

Next week the TPLA live show is going to be about power generation, primarily for Ataru however the basics of generating power are going to be applicable to all the 7 forms, and for martial arts in general for that matter.

 
In a million years, I'd never have thought of that.  Thank you. 


Thanks for the heads up.  I'm glad you think I'm improving.  It doesnt feel much like it sometimes. 

@ Master Nero: Thank you too, for pointing out the speed to me as well.  I was thinking maybe I was trying to go too fast.  It's good to have it confirmed.  Now I know to definitely slow down.

I am going to diverge from my fellows here and say that your problem is below the waist not above it. Specifically, your stance.

Everything seems fine as far as any direction we could give you movement wise, but I think you should concentrate on your stance more. Your knees move laterally a lot which is probably doing nasty things to them. Also, your weight distribution seems to be very haphazard. You seem to have a problem with your right leg more than your left one. That kind of imbalance will make it very difficult to make good directions sticks because your movement pattern is off.

My recommendation is to go back to your footwork. We have a video up that should be informative:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnaRY-oPuRU#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnaRY-oPuRU#ws)

I agree with VorNach and Nero though, slow down, make the strikes simpler and co-ordinate them with your steps. I will add to pay attention to make sure your steps and lower body are in good form.

You are improving! Good work. Stay focused and take your time, nothing to be gained by rushing it and plenty to be missed.

I really wish I could see youtube at work.  I think I have like 4-5 videos I need to watch now at least!  Thanks for the info though.  I'd honestly never really considered my footwork much past "don't fall down".   I'll keep an eye on that as well.  Lots of stuff to think about here.

Thanks!

[And I think I'm going to curtail posting here and just post everything once in the Saberfit thread.  Should keep clutter to a minimum.]

I am working on my basics right now (Shii-Cho, via TPLA), but I have to say that this thread right here is the one that got me wanting to add some style to my lightsaber swinging.  I'm outside practicing every night now, looking at places to practice when winter hits, looking at Forms and Styles that fit my frame and framework (Djem So REALLY calls to me).

Thanks for the inspiration, VorNach (and Nonymous for the basic foundation).
 ;D