Saber Forum

Thankfully I am at the point in my life where I am...the reality is that if I were 16-17yrs old with the influence of the video games and EU books I may also be a victim of the sith sickness, where it is considered ok or even preferable to be evil...but this thread, thought, is one of the application of our collective hobby...of light sabering.

I had been watching light saber handling videos...and before anyone gets butt hurt, we are just talking here...no insults or flaming in any manner...and my daughter (18yrs old) swings by and says "oh cute, it looking like the spinning from the color guard flag crew at school".

Flag crew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIc5O7CbPJ8# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIc5O7CbPJ8#)


I must say, prior to this moment I was never really a spinning fan for myself...oh I like watching the good routines especially at night/dusk and when the film shutter speed is reduced for pics and you get those fantastic light traces...but my training has burned into my brain the eye contact, stoic stance, stay focused, wait for the opening, and strike...like a cobra or a mongoose.

So for you, honest question/answer time here...do you like the spinning aspect because...

it looks cool (especially at night!)

it is fun

it fits your dueling style/mentality

or other

Although the flag spinning is a humorous consideration...her comment left me a bit off put to say the least...I showed her a night time version and that was "aw cooool", but still the flag waving comment still held sway in my brain.

In the end I am not a color guard type.  I have been studying martial arts since I was 11 in 1976, I have a laundry list of styles that I have studied (it was a mission at one point in my life to try any style I found that was different), and I find that I appreciate the serious side of the light sabering...meet the opponent, focus on their stance/position/movements, strike, bring them down.

So the hobby aspect of choreographed fights is most appealing as it fits the drama of the fight with a scheduled approach, which fits my brain/thinking process quite well.

The hobby aspect of the solo spinner...for fitness, exercise, fun, etc...while I fully appreciate the flourish of a single spin after a separation or a turn...the constant spin, not so much.

The hobby aspect of martial skill vs skill, going for first strike...more of a partial contact (full contact meaning full strength follow through for result) sport version...right up my alley of approval...in this case I would be happy to step back and let you spin yourself into exhaustion, then step in and end it  :)

Surely the lifetime of 35+yrs of training, practice, study, and application of martial theory deeply cuts into my letting it all go and just spin for fun, sigh...hulu hooping escapes me also   ::)

But for you...do you spin for spinnings sake...do you add spins for effect/fun...is spinning an important consideration for your approach to light sabering...all this and open comments and discussion of the subject...

To spin or not to spin, that is the question...
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to flourish
The spins and swings of outrageous practice,
Or to take arms against a spin of action
And by opposing end them. To die—to sleep,
No more...and by a spin to say we end
The body-ache and the thousand dueling bruises
That flesh is heir to...'tis a scar collection
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To spin, perchance to not—ay, there's the rub...
For in that spin of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause—there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.

 :'(

I use them for all the above stated reasons. Since it is a lightsaber, which is an omnidirectional cutting instrument the flourishes now become easier because of the fact that my blade is always positioned in a place to make a cut or a block.

Not saying that other swords don't lend themselves to flourishes, just saying that a lightsaber makes your job a little easier in that respect.

As far as the color guard/flag waver comment. I've gotten that one quite a bit over the years. It never bothers me honestly simply because of the fact that I could do anything that was twirling and people would say the same thing. When I did Bo staff techniques all the time I got the same reaction.

The difference is, you learn how to wield your weapon for sparring, while a color guard practitioner only does flowery flourishes. It's the tactics behind the flourishes that make the difference, if you only flourish in fights to look cool, that's great but you generally won't be utilizing them to the fullest extent.

When you use flourishes intelligently, the way they were meant to be used then your fighting style becomes dynamic.

To spin or not to spin is the question, but it all boils down to personal preference. If you don't use flourishes that's completely fine, if you do, then that is also fine.

As far as color guard comments, people are going to relate things to what they know. That's just part of the game.

Good post!

Wow, okay my answer won't be nearly as interesting as your OP but I only spin a little bit before closing in battle. I do it more to limber up and be sure that my speed and timing are up to par. When I prepare to close, I stop, get in a ready stance and fight.

Great topic.

I learned early spinning because my mom used to be a Batton twirler; luckily I don't hurl my hilt into the air and spin around.

I only use a flourish when I know they aren't close enough to hit me or soloing; as for actually spinning of my body/ turning my back, that doesn't happen.

 

I will have to say, the way most people do these types of wields (even experienced martial artists) I agree with your daughter. There are technical details that most are unaware of that will take a flourish (move meant for show) and turn it into a technique. Most are worried about speed and how cool the blade looks as it spins around the body. But to actually wield it meaningfully takes a bit tricky work.

Sure you can use them to distract and intimidate, but the practice of these in a solo setting needs to have a good deal of mindfulness to it.

Common mistakes which rape the spin of usefulness in battle:

1. Not identifying front and back correctly. Most will spin like a flag crew would, with the chest and shoulders square to the front and get them to spin in nice big visible circles in front and back. Looks good. Problem is, when you are fighting, that is NEVER front. You do not square off your hips and shoulders  like you're  straddling a cannon. Front is the lead foot and lead hand, in cases of weapons, the weapon hand. If you do it the flag crew way, actual front is not covered, so you are faced with either presenting a huge target to me, or leaving your self open from the angle that I will be attacking.

2. Rotating the weapon in the hand and wrist (bad)  and not the waist and shoulder (good). This is where al that "All in the wrist" BS comes from. in therapeutic settings or post rehab, the most common complaint with push up and the like is that it hurst the wrist. 9 time out of 10, the problem is a shoulder with a limited range of motion (ROM) so the wrist has to accommodate an angle it's not evolved for. Same with the wield of a sword; if the weapon is simply spinning in the or around the hand, there is no power or stability. In combat, your arc will be unlikely to be completed but rather be stopped by the other's weapon in a parry. If you do not have your arm connected to your odd that shock is going to start to tire your arm at the very least. Go up against heavy hitters like VorNach and myself, and we will likely knock the weapon out of your hand. Happens all the time.

3. Bad mechanics in the body to attain a nice looking blade spin. Most are so concerned about how cool it looks, they don't keep their body in good alignment (see #1) or good posture. The hunch over as is so common as people spin behind the back is a perfect example.

4. In sword play, the weapon doesn't actually go behind the back. That is an illusion from the stance, proper turning, and good control. The dreaded "Obi/Ani spin" (that will be the last time I use that phrase), will get all tangled up in the back if your shoulder actually goes into that ROM. A good deal of beginners suffer from this and get frustrated trying to come from behind the back. The secret is-it's not behind the back.

Anyway, got to go to the store. Hope this spurs on more conversation!

Good topic!

In battle, to confuse, drive back, create a defensive barrier, add a little flash.
In practice, to learn control of the blade, practice speed, work out new techniques, like it was said up above, it is a lightsaber.
flourishing/spinning can be used for defensive/offensive purposes, no shame in it.

All valid points...so do you spin or no spin?

 :P

With my staff I do a lot, with both blades it really allows for some unique attacks and defenses.

With my single bladed sabers however, not so much. If you watch Qui-Gon, Luke or Vader fight in the movies,
(not getting 'form' technical) but a mix between those three. Some spin, but more strike.
 if it comes in handy when I want to drive back, or overpower my opponent, then yes, I will.
Definantly not against it if that makes senseXD

Spinning is for staff work, not for saber.  I still spin, but not during choreography, only during parades... until there is a stop, then my partner and I duel.

i use it for all of the above reason but mostly for showing off to friends who dont exactly know what a lightsaber is anddd for a dueling sake.  I use the mechanics of certain flourishes to turn them into a block, parry or even a strike.

I work on spins to help muscle memory and control, and also because im trying to work on a soresu style for the sake of choreographing fights.


also points for the hamlet, shakespear ftw (as long as its not the tempest or R&J)

In actual sparring, i don't use it at all, mostly because i go back to my actual martial arts training.  My dual wielding can look like i'm spinning sometimes, but that's just what some of the kali techniques look like with a glowing stick.

If i'm choreographing something for show (and not as a demonstration of function), i'll sometimes put in some impractical/unwise maneuvers because they look flashy, and some of those include spins, though mostly during mid combat "breaks" where the combatants circle around and try to look intimidating, sometimes using a spin to change a grip on a saber.  But again, that's purposely being showy (like a movie) and not a practical demonstration.

Bascally i always saw it as being something flashy and not practical.  Now an actual Jedi (with all the associated timing, reaction speed, muscle control, etc.) with an actual lightsaber might have use for spins against non-lightsaber weapons mostly because it would cut through just about anything like a hot knife through butter (and they apparently reflect laser fire).  But even against another lightsaber i question the spin's usefulness as i'm unsure how strong the energy feedback would be.  Possibly useful as a distraction or misdirection technique, but again i'm not sure how effective that would be.  And things like that always tend to backfire especially when used against someone who actually knows what they're doing.

A common perspective. I will be posting a new video that will show some of the practical applications in real full contact full speed fighting. I would love to get your feedback when it goes up.

I know there are techniques that use a rotation to displace an opponent's blade, and others that use a round motion to change the direction of your blade, especially after being countered.  And there's a common technique we learned with the bokken (and even the larger naginata) that parries an overhead blow by defletcing the opponent's blade by just enough and using the energy transfer to accelerate your blade in an arc to counter them to the head/neck/shoulder.  I'm not sure techniques like that really fit under the category of spinning.  Standard attacks with the naginata incorporated some sort of spin, but then that IS a polearm so that comes mostly out of necessity.  And i believe fencing uses small arcs to quickly parry and return to possition, but then you're mostly deflecting thrusts and you're normally keeping your blade pointed out and not spinning a flat circle.

I'm interested to see which techniques you're demonstrating.  As i've stated in another thread, my experience is varied, but i never studied deeply enough to be considered a master at anything.  Also a lot of my experience was very young (age 3-18) and that's over a decade ago.

I made a light naginata and no that is not a spinning technique you mentioned...I have 35+yrs of training, heavy in the traditional Japanese arts...no worries about not being a resident master...they are current instructors and coaches...I have been instructing all my life until recently, retired...anyway, the spinning I speak of is actual spinning, rolling the wrist and full rotations...the technique you brought up is a counter common in kendo as the second strike (pop then strike).

When I get my act together I will put together a non-instructional, just for fun viewing, kata and active form for the light naginata...I may wait until I have finished molding my alien mask/hand appliances   ;D

I am not on the spinning band wagon to be sure...not to say there are not rotational attacks, shifting across or around the body to follow through with a strike or to change direction/angle...but no or very limited spinning for spinning sake...and I am all about Soresu as the aggressive defense, spider technique...creating sticky contacts, draw them in, let them over commit, then strike and end it.

:)

My personal opinion on this subject runs towards the fantasy we are attempting to emulate.  Light saber combat, as demonstrated in the recent movies, games and T.V. programming is a heavily stylized, not entirely practical thing.  I've referred to what I do as "cinematic dueling" because while not choreographed, it involves flourishes and fancy strikes deliberately aimed to not score a hit, mixed with actual threatening attacks.  All in the interest of looking good for the camera.  It demands two people with this rule set in mind, and a pretty good awareness of what the other is going to do.  I've yet to be able to replace my sparring partner from a few months back, because of these limitations.

I hold no illusion that a lot of what I do is beyond stupid pursuant to the goal of attacking someone with an analogue of a real blade.  I would argue that to most people who aren't knowledgeable about combat techniques that it tends to look "cooler". 

That's just me personally, though.  I think as long as you're having fun with a light saber in your hands, you're winning.  It's good to have goals, and to attempt to learn to be more effective towards those goals - but whatever puts a smile on your face, it's hard to judge negatively for.

(stands up and claps...that meaningful slow clap...this, yes this is spot on)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31M_MdSVxV8# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31M_MdSVxV8#)

I'm fairly certain we have some video of this happening to me, though I blame a slippery grip from my gloves  ;)
(Maybe a blooper reel would be worthwhile at some point).




It can be very valuable to shoot some video your self practicing this, so you can see what you're doing. Your proprioceptive perception of what you are doing may not line up with what you should actually be doing.

Additionally spinning, with good form, can be useful from a developmental perspective. Start your circles big and slow to acquire good form and define an appropriate range of motion.

To actually answer the question, yes I will spin the sword sometimes, where it's appropriate to the technique. Most often it's not a full 360 circle though.

I have yet to spar with sabers, but off and on for the past few years I have sparred with bokken and shinai. Personally because of my area of study (books and anything else) I don't do much of a flourish. The most I will do is a simple 360 in my main hand before a fight starts to loosen the wrist a bit. Not to step on anyone's toes here, again just personal opinion, I find that flourishes and spins in combat to be wasted movements. The only moves I want to make are attacks and blocks if need be. I usually try to end a duel as quickly as possible.

This is a great video showing why longsword uses the spin training. There is bit of training and lots of free play.
The spin can be used in combat to pretty remarkable effect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7aXtzf7-Lk#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7aXtzf7-Lk#ws)

Oh how I wish I could train in that! Just watching that makes me wish I lived somewhere else!

VorNach's Djem So is heavily based in this. Keep an eye out.

I'll have to do that!

In the meanwhile is this group anywhere near you?
http://novascotia.aemma.org/ (http://novascotia.aemma.org/)

Oh my gosh! Those guys were BRUTAL. At one point, at about 4:00, one contestant actually takes a swing at his opponent.

I liked the training academy they went through. Would love to see something like that here.

Yep, that's fair game in this arena.

This is why we wear safety gear. We can go at real combat speed and not worry about a slip here or there. Wear protective gear when sparring, period.

Perfect example of why these techniques have been around for CENTURIES.... They work really well when employed properly.

Anyways, that was some gorgeous training there... Wish I could find a school like that around here. I'd totally go for it.

Ah spinning... from what I've seen on here and other forums, it's a discussion that always has people divided.  Some (most notably Lucien) maintain that it can be useful if applied properly, while others regard it as flowery.

Me personally?  I think it CAN be utilized in real combat if the practitioner is skilled enough.  Do I use it in that way?  Nope.  I spin and I flourish when I'm just showing off, but when it comes down to swordsmanship... well, I'm a fencer.  We don't have flourishes or spins in fencing, only clean and precise bladework.  The very idea of spinning a blade in that sport is absurd, as your opponent would score a touch on you before you could even attempt to react.

Yes, this is a comprehensive martial art. While probably the most visual aspect these days is the longsword most schools that are teaching this include work on the rest of the arsenal as well: Poleaxe, spear, dagger and unarmed combat.

Not spinning in traditional sport fencing? Absolutely. It's a different set of tools and a rule set that limit a lot of opportunities but are very well suited for the setting.

If we go back to the idea of spinning being a developmental process to learn control and an understanding of how and your weapon interact then there is a clear purpose for it.
Also, while fencing is not a good setting for it there are others where spinning, when as you said the combatant is skilled, where it's appropriate and even a valid technique.

Try this first video and take a look at about 19 seconds to about 21 seconds (yes, it goes by pretty quickly)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc#ws)
That is the double zwerchau, one of of the basic techniques of German longsword.

If you go back to the video Nonymous posted and watch the bout which occurs at about 01:45 to about  01:54 you'll see it applied in a more free form setting. For that matter if you watch enough of Nonymous and I sparring you'll see me *trying* to perform it correctly (and occasionally succeeding).

I think there's a distinction that is not always made clear in the forum between spinning for a visual effect (flourishing) and spinning for practical application (attacks and deflections performed in an arc). 
The first few attacks performed in the video I posted (starting at about 11 seconds) are attacks that are traveling in an arc, almost half of a full 360degree circle.

OOOO! Good one! Check out 1:40 or so. There is the spin used with a full 360!

At about 01:50 you can see it from another angle in slow motion.

This particular group is rather amazing. Anyone up for a trip to Europe?

Missed this link till now, thanks for finding it, but it's still over 2 hours away. If I was closer, even an hour away I'd do it. I used to travel and hour every week when I was with my ex, but 2 hours is a bit far with gas today.