Saber Forum

Hello Saberforum!

This was something I had intended to do for a while now, especially once I was appointed Resident Master.  You see, while I have indeed been fencing a long time, I consider this position to be a great honor... one which I seek to live up to.  As such, I want to contribute in whatever way I can to discussion about LED lightsaber combat.

In order to do this, I decided to start with what I know best - fencing.  From here I can show the basics, then move onto how they are applied in lightsaber combat (most notably in Form II: Makashi).  So here we go!

For those of you without knowledge of fencing, there are three weapons - foil, epee, and saber.  Each weapon has a different construction as well as different target area.  Foil (which is my specialty) has the thinnest, lightest blade.  Touches are scored with the tip of the weapon only (no cutting), and target area includes only the torso.  Epee has a much thicker blade, with a triangular cross section.  In addition, the hand guard (called a bell guard) is much more prominent, which has to do with target area.  You see, target area for epee is the entire body... from your head to your toes.  As with foil, however, touches can only be scored with the tip.  Finally, we have saber... which is popular due to its ability to cut as well as its aggressive nature.  Target area for this weapon includes everything from the waist up.

To help you visualize these ideas, here's a pic I found:

(http://pubpages.unh.edu/~ahg26/IMAGES/targets.gif)

As you can imagine, the differing target areas results in a much different style of combat for each weapon.  In general, epee is the most careful and controlled, with saber being the most "fast and furious".  Foil lies somewhere in between.

Of course lightsaber combat is rather different - a combination of all these different concepts.  As with real combat, no area is safe... so target area is much like epee.  However, cutting with the blade is possible, so there is some similarity with saber.  So how does one pull all these ideas together?

Let's start with target zones.  Being a foil guy, I'll just use my own as a base to work off of.

(http://www.hpfc.org.uk/Graphics/Weapons%20and%20Clothing/Fencing-Body.jpg)

As you can see, there are four main target areas in foil, covering the torso.  Upper right chest, lower right chest, upper left chest, lower left chest.  As such, there are parries to cover attacks to each of these areas (in fact there are multiple for each zone!).

Here is where I (finally) bring it back to lightsaber combat - by expanding these target areas to the whole body.  As some of you undoubtedly were thinking, foil target area doesn't doo much good when the whole body is fair game... which I answer with simple extraplolation!  Rather than covering merely the right upper chest, think of the parry as protecting the right upper body, and make it larger if needed.  In fact, this image pretty accurately describes the ideas I'm talking about:

(http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/b/b4/Shii-ChoBodyZones.JPG)

As you can see, one additional detail is the head - which I answer by adding in the high parry used in saber fencing (parry 5, or 6).  This results in five main target areas to defend or attack.

Anyway, I do hope this helps some of you, especially those interested in Makashi.  If you have any questions please feel free to let me know, and certainly tell me if there's anything else you'd like to see.  There will definitely be more to come!

Very nice. And Well needed, there is lots of talk about fencing concepts in this community but no one ever takes the time to expand on them to further understanding.

Looking at your target zones, the obvious similarities lead me to  believe this may be the true origin of the Cannon target zones and Marks of Contact. The most interesting thing, which has always confused me, is that the sword arm is the only real limb that is targeted, just as it is in the MoC.

In the Chinese system we do it a bit differently so that definitely clears some concepts up for me as I am looking at this. Kudos!

Thanks!  That's totally what I was hoping to do, give a bit more in depth look at how I apply my fencing knowledge to lightsaber combat.  That way any fellow fencers can perhaps pick up some ideas, while people without sword training can get an idea of how a real world style of swordplay is translated into this fictional setting.  I find it actually works quite well.

My only question to you is concerning your comment about the arm being targeted.  Personally, I target the most exposed areas, which effectively translates to whichever side is closer to me.  While the sword arm is the obvious example of it (especially when the opponent is attacking), I also find it quite beneficial to target the front leg.  Of course, this is presuming a non-squared stance, which may be different in the Chinese martial arts you practice.  I'm interested to discuss these differences though!

Great post Master Nero, this should definately help any makashi users out there, I know you dont have time to do tons of videos, but posts like this I think are going to go a long way.

Not that you need them, but more points added.

What I meant was in your target areas the sword arm is highlighted. While I understand in the other events target areas are expanded, and during free play anything goes, but I was talking formally.

The front leg is of course the favorite target, and one of the most difficult to score without being brained but it will totally disable the threat.

We do not differentiate between weapon arm and non weapon arm in Chinese sword. We do concentrate on the weapon(disarms etc.), but when targeting we use a system of quadrants we call "men" or doors. When you open one door another closes and vise versa, you try to attack open doors or height to closed doors to prompt an opening. Combinations are usually thought to be ways of getting certain doors to open while keeping yours closed or inaccessible.

The single joan is very close to fencing, historical as there are no constraints on techniques for scoring, and the body position is the same. Turn so you are small a target as possible and keep your weapon between you and our opponent. The square turn usually only comes into play during a stab through someone rather than a lunge which is almost identical to western fencing "ballestra".

Very interesting, Master Nonymous.  I can see how this "door" concept has some parallels with fencing as well - our target lines work much the same way.  The standard en garde position has the fencer closing off six line, or the upper chest closer to the sword arm.  In parrying to another line, you open up another line, allowing for a great deal of deception in attacks.  It's the part of the sport where strategy comes greatly into play - using feints and what we call disengages to score touches.

Very nice start to a quality thread!

The static display with explanations goes far for me as well as others I am sure.  Videos are great but the displayed page can offer a bit of focus lost to the movement/music/etc.

Good stuff...looking forward to seeing more.

Inspires one to consider the other techniques  :)

wonderful information and illustrations.

Thanks guys.  I'm a visual learner myself, so I appreciate the value of a good illustration in teaching these kinds of concepts.  You can explain it all day long to me... or you can just show me a pic lol

One more idea for now, specifically concerning parries.  The idea with this particular style is smaller circlular parries out in front of you, keeping the point in the general direction of your opponent.  In fencing this is an important concept, as it allows for better precision (since the tip remains close to the target) as well as speed (as you have less distance to travel to the target).  Both are extremely important concepts in such a sport, and they do carry over here as well.  The best way to achieve this is to use as much of the fingers and wrist as possible, rather than the arm.

Of course, I'll continue to update this as I think of things to express... and as a matter of fact I have a video to post, that I'll have to get from Artorius next time I get a chance...

See?  ;D This is what I mean by in the end, all weapon systems are universal. I think it's because of the interaction with the physics of the weapon and our own body mechanics that limit the number of useful combinations. Terminology is the different, but a thrust based hilt weapon is not that much different between say, Italy, China, or Bali.

I would like to highlight this for all the Makashi aspirants out there. This is a KEY concept that cannot be understated. Keeping the tip pointed toward you opponent is critical for a thrust dominant style. All the reason above are true, but here are other advantages when you remove it from the sporting arena.

In the stye of Wudang Jian that I practice and teach, this concept is called "Three rings encircle the moon". The three rings are the tip, the blade (somewhere on the body) and the hilt. Each one represents one level of engagement with the opponents weapon. The closest Western an along I have to this is the Italian Debile, Mezzo, and Forte use. Keeping these rings in line is the way we train this concept. The idea is that the opponent must always be force to pass your tip first. This allows you to change the angle of the blade to redirect the incoming attack with very little motion, like a wedge. We also learn to wield the sword from each of these three rings. Keeping the tip in the opponents face is a great distraction and psychological effect especially with lightsabers! A nice bright light in their eyes.

The technique you mention  Nero, about keeping the work in the hand, for us, is the 3rd ring or wielding it close to the hilt. This gives extremely fast flicking strikes and parries, as well as intimidation moves. It moves the blade the most amount of area for the amount of movement you produced in the wrist or hand. (one little caveat: if you have trouble with this and are getting pain in the wrist or hand from it, work on strengthening the grip, wrist and shoulder rather than trying to increase flexibility. You want good strength, which will give you good range of motion.)

I would say as for a principle of Makashi "Keep the tip pointed toward your opponent" is a sound axiom.  ;D

This is a wonderful tool Master Nero! I've been wanting to learn some fencing and Makashi since you always say that they're so closely related and this really helps! I'm definitely going to try this next time I'm sparring.

Great job Nero! I love the comparisons and info! Definitely be sharing this with others.-Kashi

Love it man. I have to get that video off my phone so you can throw a link up!

Master Nero,
Thank you for bringing this great collection of material to the forum.
The first sword I picked up (aside from the tree branches my brothers and I used to play "knights in armor" and tried to hit each other with as children) was the fencing foil in high school. I have done very little sport fencing since college but reading over what you have presented here really highlights just how much that early training has influenced much of what I do even to this day.

An old quote that seems quite appropriate at this time: "...an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
I don't know about a more civilized age but elegance is certainly a term that can be applied to the art of fencing and can easily transfer over to lightsaber play.


Of course it's almost impossible for me to post without mentioning the longsword but in those teachings it is also a common practice to keep your point in line with your opponent to maintain the threat and encourage them to not charge in on you.


I found these images to add some additional visualization to the topic.
If you look at the differences in blade position between, for example, tierce (3rd) and quarte (4th) the concept of the open and closed lines or doors that Masters Nero and Nonymous have been discussing start to become more apparent.
(http://i.imgur.com/egy7c.png) (http://imgur.com/egy7c)

and the concept is really visible here if you look at what happens when the guard moves between 3rd and 4th.
(http://i.imgur.com/Oafjr.png) (http://imgur.com/Oafjr)

Very nice images VorNach,  This helps me visualize the parries I'm not familiar with. Another thing is interceptions, tricking your opponnent with a parry feint and doing the opposite mid lunge.-Kashi

Thanks for the input VorNach!  I have been continually interested to see these overlapping concepts between fencing and longsword (it makes sense too, considering the longsword essentially gave way to the rapier, which eventually progressed to modern fencing).

One comment on the "closed door" concept you correctly pointed out - these are the regular parries, but it's important to keep in mind that there are various circular parries as well.  For instance, many times in foil you see a parry 4 and a circle 6 (essentially making a circle starting in 6 line and ending back there) used for the same purpose, guarding that high line.  The main technical difference between the two is that one closes out another line, whereas another provides circular motion to deflect an attack.  The former is naturally better to defend against a cutting motion, whereas the latter is mainly suited for a thrust.


Definitely!  FYI forum members - he's referring to a couple videos we took that we figured could be useful, so we'll throw them up when we get a chance.


Thanks Kashi, I'm glad it helped.  Please feel free to bring up any topics you may have questions or ideas about.

Physical design changes over time modify the application of the weapon but at the most fundamental level it's a metal rod, often sharp edged, with a point designed to exsanguinate another person. It's still fascinating to see the incredible overlap of technique with different weapons from different times and places as well as where they part ways and develop application particular to their design.
(http://i.imgur.com/uGiT4.png) (http://imgur.com/uGiT4)




Counter lines with circles and circles with lines.

Great topic Master Nero.

We've talked an awful lot about blade movement and position in relation to the body but there has been a paucity of information on footwork, some yes, but not very much.
Master Nonymous had presented some excellent footwork information in his tutorial series. I imagine this thread will at some point discuss it, as it's such an integral part of fencing training. I'll have some footwork advice in my Djem So thread in the upcoming weeks as well.

To try and get the ball rolling a bit I wanted to consider some of the historic source of modern fencing we've been talking about here. So, to get a little more "old school", I found this very nice article on "La Destreza" or the Spanish Circle.
The Spanish Circle was the foundation for the Spanish style of rapier combat for over 200 years. They really had their act together.

http://www.puckandmary.com/blog_puck/2009/08/spanish-fencing-notation-part-2-footwork-and-the-circle/ (http://www.puckandmary.com/blog_puck/2009/08/spanish-fencing-notation-part-2-footwork-and-the-circle/)

Nice find!  I do indeed plan on including a good deal of footwork information in here, I just haven't gotten around to taking any vids.  If I don't get to take any soon (real life tends to get in the way) I will see if I can find any good sources online I can post here, perhaps some instructional videos courtesy of Youtube.

Long story short, VorNach is correct - footwork is ESSENTIAL, especially in this Form.  It provides the ability to maneuver in an agile fashion, and allows one to manipulate the distance to one's opponent.  I can't really stress enough how useful this is for Makashi, being as it allows one to create opportunities to outwit the opponent.

Not to mention it's a powerful defensive tool - if you get too close and find yourself overwhelmed, a fast retreat makes the difference between getting hit and emerging unscathed.

That's the main thing I've been working on in my sparring. My fiancee love using my Arbiter, which has lots of reach, and I've been using the Dark Prophecy (much shorter saber). Anyway, footwork is vital. I still have a lot of work to do, but I'm getting the hang of it. It may not be pretty, but for the most part, I'm not getting hit lol. BTW neither of us have any experience so we're learning as we go.

It's good to hear you're coming along Ben!  Just let me know if you have any questions or anything, I'm trying to pass on my knowledge as best I can (though it isn't always easy via forum).

Just to help out in that regard, here is a little video I made to try and demonstrate some of the Makashi parries.  I kinda break it down to five main zones, to keep it nice and simple.  Hope it helps!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3G-5Ad4vo#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3G-5Ad4vo#ws)

Also, keep in mind this was made at a very early hour of the morning...

Artorius made one as well, he put it in the Soresu thread here if you're interested:

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=6061.msg104043#msg104043 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=6061.msg104043#msg104043)

Video came out really nicely, again loving the lighting.

And by early hour I believe it was around 3am... Yea. We were tired, and I was cranky. But still it came out great!

PS - thanks for promoting the vids!

Lots of fun there.

I have a thought...I had a karate instructor, early on in life, who stressed the importance of not leaving a open of flailing limb out away from the body...by stressed I mean to say would smack with a bamboo cane if you left it out...that sort of thing leaves a mark, both on your body and in your head.

And before anyone gets riled up I know this was an informal get together, late at night, going through the motions...which we all appreciate...I was more thinking of this thought in general not this video or person specific.

In fencing which drives the person in video thus...there is a need for the opposite arm to be up and out...counter balance, helps with lateral facing, and more finer details that my limited sport fencing brain does not contain...but for the ideal of weightless or near weightless sabers this same may not be needed...but we simulate the same in LED sabering.

My thought goes back to the way to prevent the wayward limb hanging out and getting smacked...hold it tight to the body in ready to strike mode or grasp the gi/belt to keep it close (which also acts as a counter balance).

You see this sort of thing sometimes in spinning videos, where the saberist holds their hand/arm close to center mass...it is normal instinct to protect the limb from knuckle cracking and such with the spinning action...this protective logic is where I am going with the thought.

The idea of an off hand saber makes more and more sense with this in mind.

For me personally I would most likely go straight to a shorter version like a Florentine style or Parisian main-gauche or Japanese ko-wakizashi (short blade) which I am more familiar with.

The point being that the slowed down version in the video above caught my eye from experience before, instantly drawing my eye the whole time...protect your hand and maybe an offhand short sword would be useful.

The main reason for the offhand sword in my experience has been to deal with the unexpected loss of footing or trip allowing the opponent to close the distance maintained with the main sword arm or as result of a technique that allowed the opponent to do the same...for whatever the other guy is in your face about to deliver the coup de grâce.

An off hand short blade can move in a different way than a full size blade, quicker, shorter arc, circle of response, etc.

Just a thought.

Great video by the way, showing a concept and application that makes sense and is clearly repeatable by anyone...a sign that the person demonstrating has a grasp of instruction.

:)

I just saw this, and that looks really helpful. I'll have to try that next time I'm out!

Thanks I will, if I have any. Actually I do. Any elaborations on parry interceptions in lightsaber combat?

I probably could elaborate on that, but I'm not 100% on what you mean there (still getting my fencing terminology converted over).  If you could give me a bit of an explanation on it I'd be happy to comment!

@Relmeob - thanks for the input!  The thing about the hand is, part of the reason it's even held back there is to keep it out of the way.  I can definitely see where you're coming from in martial arts, but for the more linear style of combat fencing employs it makes a certain amount of sense to hold the hand back there.  The idea with fencing (and consequently my brand of Makashi) is that you're using footwork to remain at a measured distance from your opponent, retreating when necessary.  It's basically taking the strengths of distance you get out of the linear fencing style and applying it to a three dimensional combat scenario... which is something I'm trying to work on for sure!  I am liking the idea of an off hand weapon though, and in fact I've seriously considered implementing a sort of "rapier and dagger" variant of Jar'Kai.  I'll let you know if I make any headway on that front.

There needs to be a Jar'Kai, and a double bladed variant for each form if you ask me... I really like the idea of a shoto being employed with Makashi though... Very practical.

My coach has taught me interceptions for some time, he describes them as making a half parry such as parry four, then as the opponent disengages making a second opposite parry in this case parry six during a lunge to the chest/arm. Others are parries 4-8, 6-8, 6-8-6, 6-6-8, etc. I don't know if this describes them well enough, I wonder if I should make a video. Any way, Id love your input!-Kashi

Ah, thanks for that... I think I'm getting what you're laying down here.  You're referring to a double parry in anticipation of a feint disengage by the enemy.  I've done many such things in private lessons, so I'll address my thoughts on that right now.

Something I've learned over many private lessons is that the exercises taught aren't necessarily all specific techniques to use in situations, but rather an attempt to build muscle memory.  Anticipation of an attack isn't really a habit that you should get into, as it sets you up for missed and/or failed parries.  The double parries that you referred to as "interceptions" are more for burning the physical motion of a second parry into your mind... so that if you miss the first parry, you will automatically execute the second to keep yourself safe.  For example, I might practice a parry 4 to parry 6 "interception" so that if my opponent parries around my initial parry 4, I can instantly move back to 6 line without having to think about it.  The more of these automated responses you can set up, the more prepared you will be to react without having a thought process interfering... if that makes any sense.

Of course, you wouldn't be taught them if they didn't have merit!  I don't mean to discount these exercises at all, I just wanted to make it clear that they don't act so much as a technique as they do a training exercise.  In a real fencing bout you want to parry as late as humanly possible, in order to prevent your opponent from using deception against you.  If you get in the habit of parrying earlier and relying on a second parry, you run the risk of unintentionally slaving yourself to your opponent's feints, which makes you incredibly predictable.

Again, if that makes no sense feel free to let me know... I realize sometimes I start blabbing and not everyone is on the same page, so I'd be happy to re-explain anything.

Oh, and thanks for the suggestion... I'll be sure to add it to any instructional exercise I put together! ;)

Thanks Nero! I like your thoughts on this subject. It answers a couple good questions!-Kashi

I have been meaning to comment on this for a while. Very nice video and quality concepts for Makashi users. I have been thinking about guards a lot recently and these look like they fit in to a guard system or something like it. Are there connections between the stuff you are doing and guards? Do you use guards that much in your sport?

Again, nicely done. We need more material like this that is simple for folks to follow.

Thanks, Master Nonymous.  I really do try to offer what I can for instruction, so that people can pick up some basics they can work on.  It's definitely not to the level of your vids, but I'm trying to get them out as much as I can!

I hate to ask for clarification again, but what do you mean by a guard system?  The one annoying thing I find about meshing fencing and other martial arts is that despite all their similarities, the nomenclature still trips me up from time to time.  I'm working on becoming familiar with the more common terms, but every so often I need a bit of help  ::)

Well, like in many historical fencing styles they set up different guards  as templates of a sort. I hope VorNach will chime in on this as this is not my main area.

Example's I know of are like Agrippa's four guards, or "wards":

(http://sleech.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/agrippa_four_guards.jpg)

They often correspond to parries and attacks but also ripostes. From what I gather they are used to varying degrees depending on the school. I was wondering if sport fencing placed a lot of emphasis on them. The video reminds me of a series of guards.

What you're referring to may well be in line with the video... based on what I saw of VorNach's guards in his latest Djem So video, I think we're talking about the same thing.  I'll be interested to see if he has any input here, as I don't have as much experience in the classical fencing styles.

I will elaborate a bit on the parries themselves though.

Each zone has a corresponding parry designed to close that particular area of target off.  For instance, an attack to the head is thwarted with a parry 5 (taken from saber).  This is what I take as the "guard" concept, the closing of a section of target as opposed to the deflection of an attack in progress.  I suppose in this way it would help to differentiate - perhaps call the former a "guard" while the latter could be called a "parry."  The guard would be more useful against cutting attacks, but is rigid and therefore takes the full force of the attack.  A parry, being executed by deflecting an attack away, would be more suitable for thrusts... but would hold the advantage of not meeting the attack head on.

To emphasize (and hopefully explain more clearly) this point, I'll use a Star Wars example.  The Revenge of the Sith novelization describes in great detail the fight between Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Dooku.  Once Obi-Wan is taken out of commission, Anakin allows his rage to slip somewhat, giving him the strength to overcome Dooku's careful defense.  This is described in the following quote, courtesy of Wookieepedia:

"However, despite Dooku's absolute mastery of Form II, he was still prone to one of the style's weaknesses; the lack of kinetic power. Perhaps the most notable demonstration of this was during Dooku's fateful duel with Anakin Skywalker; Dooku was simply unable to generate the necessary power to evenly match Skywalker's preferred form, Djem So. The sheer, raw power of Form V wore down Dooku's defenses, physically exhausting him and draining his reserves of Force power."

It's getting a bit off topic, but the point I'm making with this particular example is that in some cases it is more beneficial for the Makashi stylist to deflect strikes in order to prevent being overwhelmed.  In fact, this approach can be useful in unbalancing a more "wild" opponent, especially a less experienced one.

You rang?




I would like to expand on the ideas you are presenting Master Nero by adding some elaboration. Maybe I’m just making it more complex but I’d like to unpack the ideas a bit more. The major distinction is the guards are positions offering a sort of passive defense while parrying and blocking are actions you take when contending with an opponent. Attacks, parries and blocks will all start, finish and / or pass through one or more guard positions in the course of the encounter. They form a sort of framework to attach the various techniques of the style to.

Since I’m using some terminology a little differently than how it has been presented so far I’m going to define the nomenclature, based on my background and experience, as I go along. These may not line up with everyone else’s definitions; this is just so there are no misunderstandings in what I am referring to.

“Guard” refers to a transitory body (and weapon) position, used to protect a specific area. As Master Nero said this has the effect of closing off a target zone. Because this area is mostly blocked off it leaves open other areas, inviting the opponent to attack somewhere that you are, hopefully, using as a way to open them up for your own attack.
The protection a guard offers comes from simply being in that position. As with Master Nero’s “parry 5” example simply by holding that position downward strikes to the head and shoulders are unlikely to work, thus an opponent is unlikely to try such an attack while you are in that position.
Guard positions thus change as the relative positions between the combatants change; each person may change the distance and guard position to entice the other to either take an action or change their own guard, perhaps opening up too much in the transition. This could be an entire conversation on its own.
Guard positions also change as a result of launching attacks. Attacks are normally launched from, sometimes pass through and finish in guard positions, unless (and sometimes when) your weapon is embedded in your opponent.
An example of this is in Master Nero’s video at about 01:06. He moves from a high side cut up into position 5 from which he launches his own downward cut to his opponents head.

“Parry” is an action that prevents an incoming attack from landing, preferably without dead stopping the full force of the blow. A parry will typically pass through or finish in a guard position in the process of being performed.
Going back to the diagram below if you are in Guard position 4 and your opponent lunges or cuts to your right shoulder/pectoral area you bring your blade across towards Guard 3. As you come into that position you intersect the incoming blade, deflecting it past you or perhaps beating it out of line.

“Block” is an action that stops an incoming attack by interposing something between you and the attack; this typically results in stopping it by absorbing the full force of the hit. A block sometimes ends in one of the guard positions.
The most straightforward example is going back to the 5 position. A downward cut to your head is intercepted by raising your blade above your head, stopping the blow. Not necessarily elegant but if it’s that or the worst (and last) headache of your life do what you need to survive.

“Empty parry” is a defensive move (it could also be an “empty block”) that only defends; it does not threaten the opponent. These sometimes end in Guard positions.

(http://i.imgur.com/Oafjr.png) (http://imgur.com/Oafjr)




Absolutely. I would further offer that it’s always beneficial to deflect an attack rather than block it, when possible. This is a step towards the idea of making all of your deflections a simultaneous attack. When you stop your opponents attack without threatening them in some fashion at the same time (the empty parry) you have given them another, free opportunity to attack you. If your defense also is an offensive or threatening technique you put yourself in a stronger position in the encounter.
The classic example of this from foil fencing occurs when an opponent lunges at the left side of your chest. You parry into 4, extending out at the same time so while you are deflecting your opponent’s blade out of line to your left, your own point is extending towards them. In effect the riposte is part of the defense.

The German longsword version of this is a downward cut starting from the high guard, traveling into the longpoint guard and hopefully at that point your opponents head. While it is targeting the opponents head your blade is between your upper target areas and the opponent’s blade. You’ll see this in most of the longsword videos that have been posted in various threads.

Alright, now that my novel here is done I’ll stop. I hope this answers the questions people had. Hopefully it generates some new ones as well.

As it so happens, your novel was most interesting VorNach!  Thanks a lot for you input.

I'll see if I can discuss some of the points you brought up.

First off, I appreciate you elaborating a bit on my discussion of parries vs guards.  I began to understand the concept Master Nonymous was referring to when he brought up guard systems, and your explanation has further solidified my view of it.  In sport fencing (foil at least) there isn't as much use of a stationary guard in the way you describe, apart from the standard en garde position.  In this position, the fencer keeps his or her blade in the 6 (or 3 for saber) position, effectively closing off that target.  This of course leaves positions like 4 and 7 wide open, though 8 is partially blocked off by the sword arm, but makes defense much more manageable.

Of course, I have made some use of such concepts in epee, but in a less than orthodox way.  I realize that my style of fencing inherently gives away my background in foil, so I take full advantage of this by pretending to make standard foilist mistakes - such as keeping my blade too high.  I have actually gotten quite a few touches by readying a low parry for when an opponent takes advantage of this, and this kind of preparation aspect is what I find quite fun about epee in particular.  IMO foil and saber are a bit too fast to frequently setup situations like that, but epee definitely appears to give fencing its nickname of "physical chess."

I digress.


Another great topic.  This is one of the places where I see the parallels between the little bit of longsword technique I've witnessed (much of it courtesy of your videos) and the fencing experience I have.  This is something my coach used to call "opposition", where you parry with the blade angled in such a way where the opponent's target is threatened.  It's difficult to execute in foil, but if done correctly can be a great way to score a touch while keeping the opponent's point in a safe place.

Actually, I see some of the ideas you've expressed about Djem So coming forth, which makes even more sense.  As Djem So and Makashi seem to be inspired by longsword and fencing respectively, the fact that they have the same kinds of parallels makes sense to me - since it is said in universe that Djem So takes offensive aspects from Makashi.

Thank you!

I see this is part of the distillation process which led from actual fighting styles to the development of sport fencing. As rules to control safety and scoring came about the need for the dynamic movements used in actual combat were reduced. Small, very light representative weapons, a confined area for play and (in foil and saber) limited targeting meant the full range of techniques could be pared down to only what was needed to function within the rule set.


I’ve heard (and used) the phrase that foil is like chess at the speed of thought.

Yes, we’re talking about the same concept here. In retrospect I have found it odd that of all of the martial arts I’ve studied it was the Western longsword traditions that put emphasis on this concept of attacks are your defenses from the beginning. Pretty much everything else I’d studied up to that point left that concept as something to be studied only at advanced levels and you started of learning defense and attack as 2 separate processes.


I hope it becomes even more apparent when I have an opportunity to present some Djem So concepts using single handed saber techniques.

I look forward to seeing that!  As you can probably guess by my background, single handed wielding is my preferred method... I can use two hands, but it doesn't feel as natural.  I hope to implement some Djem So ideas into my style, and from this conversation it's seeming more and more like a practical idea.

Masters Nonymous and Attoru:

I am awed by your knowledge of fencing; I have only one piece of information to offer about why the focus of the Makashi duelists is on the opponent's sword arm (in fact, that is a bit misleading).

The Jedi try not to kill unless they must. As Makashi is a form focused on precision, the strike a Makashi practitioner is attempting to land is called a sun djem[\i], which destroys an opponent's weapon without actually injuring them. As such, Form II could be envisioned almost as an extension of Form Zero, the Jedi precept of nonviolence.

A skilled opponent will be able to protect his weapon, however; if the Makashi duelist cannot destroy the weapon, he is encouraged to cut off the opponent's sword hand at the wrist (a cho mai[\i], again disarming without injuring too badly) or by stabbing him through the heart (called shiak[\i], the Jedi method of killing, as it is quick, clean, and demonstrates superior skill).

While this focus might not be the best in terms of survival - a Makashi practitioner may focus more on skill than survival. Survival is for Soresu duelists.

Starswirl, welcome to the forum...and welcome to the fold...the purists here are fair to rare, most tend to lean the direction of do what they want to do rather than serve as a Jedi.

Good luck with your style/training search and practice!

 ;D

A point for you for towing the line.

I suppose you can brand me as a "traditionalist" then.

(P.S. Sorry about all the italics, I apparently didn't end the italicized paragraph properly).

I just want to say thanks to Nero for creating this thread. Huge help, especially to a beginning fencer like me.

I'm always glad to know that my little discussions help people!  I'm all about passing on whatever knowledge I have, as well as spouting my own point of view on these things... differing perspectives on these topics is what I find so fascinating about this forum.

Let me know if you have any questions, thoughts, or requests and I will be sure to address them!  I hope to put some more up here soon.

As my natural motion and mental methods lead me to a one handed style, Makashi seems to be a great way to start.

I want to thank the Masters and Vornach for content in this thread. It is going to make my training a lot easier to manage.

Knowing that a lot of the Makashi style was based off of fencing I went youtube foraging and found some videos.

some motion counter and drills in the spanish fencing style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2_h4mn9dk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2_h4mn9dk#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gQji0K76N0# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gQji0K76N0#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLEvUr9hVU4# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLEvUr9hVU4#)

it is an interesting mix of avoidance and attack, more fluid than my old Katana/bokken parry/slide style, but still super useful for creating the opportunity and saving your own hide at the same time.

I've only relatively recently become very interested in the Spanish school of fencing (La Destreza) and I think has a lot of potential for adaptation to the games we play here. As with other historic styles we've look at adapting there's going to be some complications in not having a cross or bell guard but applications are still possible.
Here's a nice website with some good research on the style:
http://destreza.us/ (http://destreza.us/)

That site has sooo much information. I think im just going to put on headphones and scroll through that blog.

The motion circle at the very beginning make so much sense.

I am going to overload my brain.

I have more sources. Let me know when there's more space in your brain. I can keep filling it for a while yet.

Thanks for the link VorNach!  I'm sucked into that page now too.  Very good info.

Also, I don't think I ever posted this here, but I did make an instructional video on some Makashi concepts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-6cIDy2BVc#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-6cIDy2BVc#ws)

I am just as impressed that your girl is playing along...lucky :(