Jedi, sith, Grey Jedi, Force Adepts, Dark Acolytes, etc.

[Kitra]

In all of these types of discussions, one big opposition to the Jedi Order I keep reading is the idea of not allowing marriage. Relmeob made a comparison to the military allowing marriage but having no guarantee of having a real familiy life. That is a near perfect reason for Jedi not marrying as I can think of.

However, I hope that in the next movies, we get to see married Jedi (didn't Luke actually get married in the EU?) Perhaps this would help to steer more people to be in favor of the Jedi if they saw them as part of families and had loved ones. It would help to humanize them more. I think we might discover that many people are judging the Jedi only on one fixed point in "history." Much of the criticism of the Jedi seems to be fixated on the ways of the Jedi from the prequel movies, in which the Jedi are very much monk like. The original trilogy movies are a bad example of the ways of the Jedi because, let's face it, there are only three Jedi to judge, and Luke is hardly typical.

I think perhaps the Jedi Order of the Clone Wars Era might be better thought of as Orthodox Jedi. Very devout and strict and not really a good base line to gauge from. In any walk of life there are varying levels of devotion and I would think the Jedi are the same way. Perhaps the limited number of Jedi we see depicted in the movies are really not a good cross section to judge the entire Jedi way by after all.  Most of the principle Jedi in Ep 1,2 and 3 are council members and are going to be held to a higher standard of conduct anyway. They would have to be or else they would not be on the High Council.

I would like to see more about the rank and file Jedi and what they were like. If the Jedi are the defenders of the galaxy, they can not all be "generals." There have to be fome sergeants too.

MArriage?
For the jedi marriage is a wonderful and reinforced thing if the student reached acertain degree of personal charakteristik fortitude and resolve as well as a high amount of wisdom and self control. As soon as you can radiate this they have many approaches of letting the jedi marry. The Problem is only with younger jedi since theire lack of persinal fortitude might hinder the force of truly develop in them since their prioritys WILL change after marriage as a new responsibility which they will life up to.

And by the way even in the council there had been 2! Charackters which had been married out of their own wish.
 

[Nhylus]

Well for the Jedi, they are servants of the galaxy. They are there to protect and bring balance to the force. They sacrifice their own personal life for the greater good. And as sad as it sounds, any attachment can lead to inner-turmoil. If a Jedi during the Cold War had a wife secretly and he was away, he would have to constantly hide it, and if she was to be killed or wasn't faithful to him, it could instantly turn him. Marriage wasn't allowed because it was just one more place for a Jedi to lose themselves. Especially the young Jedi; as love is an extremely potent emotion. Just like a Jedi, I see the appeal of relationships, but I do not see the ultimate point anymore. Everthing in life ends, and expectations are the root of all disappointment. I've had my share of them and don't wish for anymore. Everything I need in life can come from my inner-self. I truly understand why marriage is insignificant compared to the Jedi Order's misson, and why it is seen as dangerous in many of the era's in the SW universe.

If the Jedi are the defenders of the galaxy, they can not all be "generals." There have to be fome sergeants too.

They were only all generals during the Clone Wars and to the Clone Army. The Clones were requisitioned to the Jedi Order, the Jedi were their leaders. The Jedi maintain their own inner ranks such as Padawans, Jedi Knights, Jedi Masters. Any Padawan in the Clone Wars would have a Knight or Master as their guide, and likely become capable of leading clone troops.

[Kitra]

Well for the Jedi, they are servants of the galaxy. They are there to protect and bring balance to the force. They sacrifice their own personal life for the greater good. And as sad as it sounds, any attachment can lead to inner-turmoil. If a Jedi during the Cold War had a wife secretly and he was away, he would have to constantly hide it, and if she was to be killed or wasn't faithful to him, it could instantly turn him. Marriage wasn't allowed because it was just one more place for a Jedi to lose themselves. Especially the young Jedi; as love is an extremely potent emotion. Just like a Jedi, I see the appeal of relationships, but I do not see the ultimate point anymore. Everthing in life ends, and expectations are the root of all disappointment. I've had my share of them and don't wish for anymore. Everything I need in life can come from my inner-self. I truly understand why marriage is insignificant compared to the Jedi Order's misson, and why it is seen as dangerous in many of the era's in the SW universe.
They were only all generals during the Clone Wars and to the Clone Army. The Clones were requisitioned to the Jedi Order, the Jedi were their leaders. The Jedi maintain their own inner ranks such as Padawans, Jedi Knights, Jedi Masters. Any Padawan in the Clone Wars would have a Knight or Master as their guide, and likely become capable of leading clone troops.

A relationship can only grow with both participants. When one or the other dont embrace it fully it is sure to fail.
Ooooor will be very one sided. You build a bridge from both sides of the river we say in germany...

I personally believe that "Grey Jedi" is a total cop out. Also, I no longer consider myself a Jedi, really. I always end up thinking about who I really am as far as Star Wars classes or categories go, and I feel that "benevolent bounty hunter" works best for me. No, that is not a paradox. I just prefer the freedom of being a bounty hunter, but at the same time I still want to be part of the light side. So there you go.

Also, lightsabers are overrated.

Jedi hold the core and essence of things. That is why the other systems are similar in fundamentals. They are shared truths.

We lack the additions. The rituals and trappings. But there is history to the grasp of an innate ethic, of the cherished and ubiquitous life-force.

We believe in cause-and-effect, which is really the definition of Karma.

No luck; no accidents.

[Luna]

In all of these types of discussions, one big opposition to the Jedi Order I keep reading is the idea of not allowing marriage. Relmeob made a comparison to the military allowing marriage but having no guarantee of having a real familiy life. That is a near perfect reason for Jedi not marrying as I can think of.

However, I hope that in the next movies, we get to see married Jedi (didn't Luke actually get married in the EU?) Perhaps this would help to steer more people to be in favor of the Jedi if they saw them as part of families and had loved ones. It would help to humanize them more. I think we might discover that many people are judging the Jedi only on one fixed point in "history." Much of the criticism of the Jedi seems to be fixated on the ways of the Jedi from the prequel movies, in which the Jedi are very much monk like. The original trilogy movies are a bad example of the ways of the Jedi because, let's face it, there are only three Jedi to judge, and Luke is hardly typical.

In the New Jedi Order, marriage is completely allowed.

MArriage?
For the jedi marriage is a wonderful and reinforced thing if the student reached acertain degree of personal charakteristik fortitude and resolve as well as a high amount of wisdom and self control. As soon as you can radiate this they have many approaches of letting the jedi marry. The Problem is only with younger jedi since theire lack of persinal fortitude might hinder the force of truly develop in them since their prioritys WILL change after marriage as a new responsibility which they will life up to.

And by the way even in the council there had been 2! Charackters which had been married out of their own wish.

Not true. Permission to marry was very rarely given and it almost never had to do with the individual in question - it was the individual's culture that was the deciding factor.

[RogueLeader]

It's always been my belief that having no personal attachments leads to a certain lack of empathy among the Jedi, making it easier to, I don't know, kill children. Or their own Padawans.

Just my $0.02.

[Nhylus]

It's always been my belief that having no personal attachments leads to a certain lack of empathy among the Jedi, making it easier to, I don't know, kill children. Or their own Padawans.

Just my $0.02.

I dont believe they lack empathy, but they know when the appropriate time and place for it is. They have emotions but they know not to let them control their actions or consume them. They know that emotions can lead to misguided, impulsive decisions. The Jedi aren't heartless or empty. They are just extremely strong-willed.

[Master Rel]

Agreed...the extreme of killing children does not stem from not being allowed to date, that came from the influence of the sith.

When you are 17 it seems the world is against you and your wishes.

When you are 27 you know you know everything.

When you are 37 you realize that you do not know everything.

When you are 47 you find that looking back that time was wasted worrying over the little things.

Etc.

And it is not the same for everyone but as a whole it is quite difficult for a teenager to grasp the value of what a complete relationship means.  Just as a mature person can forget the value of infatuation.  Just as the school Professor can lose sight of the basics, forgetting students have not experienced the fundamentals and thus there is conflict between student and teacher from points of view, level of experience, and view of the world.

As it is the same with the Jedi and how we look at it.

The monastic consideration is tougher to deal with than the military direction...military school, then the academy, then into active duty service.  Military members can marry but there are no concessions to allow for family time.  If the member can not balance these stresses then they can falter at work, be passed over for promotion, released from service, or stay in the service and the marriage fails.

But this goes far beyond the romantic love stage.

It seems this is everything when you are in that stage, but it is hard to maintain that level of emotional strain.

When the relaxed love stage begins then you both can breathe easy and gain a new level of comfort that goes far beyond the heat and frenzy of early love.

I mention all this because it is the early stages that create so much chaos. Add the Force and now a jilted lover has powers that are fueled by overwhelming emotions of pain, anger, and loss...the inroads to the dark side (the sith smile, gnash their teeth, and wring their hands as the fallen lover welcomes the dark side). 

It is this situation, which comes to us all, is best avoided when you have powers beyond those of normal folk...who still find ways to engage chaos.

The Jedi Order seeks to avoid the chaos...sith welcome it. 

Both are on opposing sides of the same circle.

Is there room for a Jedi Order that allows relationships and marriage, well of course.

It is in our natures to want to be with others in many different ways.

Without naming names...there is a Earth religion (that will go nameless) that is strict about the clerical leaders and relationships.  There are branches of the same that allow the clerics to marry and the other that does not...they are basically the same beyond that aspect.

Surely there are issues because of either choice, as we are human and by that measure we can behave well or poorly...nothing more or less.

The far ends of the spectrum...abstinence or wantonness...both can cause issues, certainly some middle ground would be best.

Thus the foundation of philosophy.  Women and men dealing with their humanity, the heights and depths.

Should young Jedi be allowed to date and marry, sure why not?  But...they should also be held to the results of the same.  If the pursuit of love and affection become the primary drive of life then a Jedi you will no longer be.

Living life is hard enough, add powers and the responsibility of dealing with the same just makes it that much harder.

The conflict is the stuff of drama.

Should Jedi marry, yes.  It would make the sith all kinds of sad to see Jedi happy...lol.

But the relationship should always be secondary to all Jedi business and if the individual can not balance the two then they should join the Jedi reserve.  Spent more time with family, act as local only Jedi...maybe like a sheriff rather than a military type?

Hmm

[Oramac]

I find it curious that this has become a discussion of marriage rather than some overarching philosophical discussion.

(didn't Luke actually get married in the EU?)

Off the top of my head: Luke, Mara Jade, Corran Horn, Jaina Solo, Leia (technically not a Jedi?), and I think a few others got married in the EU.

I think perhaps the Jedi Order of the Clone Wars Era might be better thought of as Orthodox Jedi. Very devout and strict and not really a good base line to gauge from. In any walk of life there are varying levels of devotion and I would think the Jedi are the same way. Perhaps the limited number of Jedi we see depicted in the movies are really not a good cross section to judge the entire Jedi way by after all.  Most of the principle Jedi in Ep 1,2 and 3 are council members and are going to be held to a higher standard of conduct anyway. They would have to be or else they would not be on the High Council.[/quote]

An interesting perspective.  You suggest that there may be different "sects" (for lack of a better term), just as there are several different Christian faiths (Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, etc).   I'd say it's entirely possible for the Jedi to be fragmented in this way.  Even likely.  With so many different people, and even species, as Jedi, it's inevitable that some will have vastly different cultural backgrounds than others, and would likely disagree on some things. 

[Master Rel]

Points all around!

Great casual civil and yet thought provoking conversation, I love it.

The conversation gravitated to marriage because that seems to be the primary color of the flag wavers...Jedi can't have relationships!

Marriage is the logical, in most cases, of an extended relationship...even if marriage means something different to each culture...in the end it means the same, commitment and partnership in life through love (in some cases biology, obligation, etc.).

If this stumbling block was removed then much anti Jedi ideas would fade I suspect 

[Oramac]

Points all around!

Great casual civil and yet thought provoking conversation, I love it.

The conversation gravitated to marriage because that seems to be the primary color of the flag wavers...Jedi can't have relationships!

Marriage is the logical, in most cases, of an extended relationship...even if marriage means something different to each culture...in the end it means the same, commitment and partnership in life through love (in some cases biology, obligation, etc.).

If this stumbling block was removed then much anti Jedi ideas would fade I suspect 

Much, but not all.  Including mine.  Though personally, I'm not anti-Jedi.  I just disagree with them a bit.   My main gripe with the Jedi is the whole self-sacrifice thing.  They help others at the expense of themselves.  I'm all for helping others, but not if it means hurting myself (not just talking about physical hurt here either).  Especially if the "help" I provide is defined by some ambiguous third party.  That I can't stand.

[Rina Ascura]

I think that Jedi marriage results in one unforeseen problem. Force-sensitivity is known to be hereditary. A Jedi who has a family starts a family of Jedi. This is acceptable as "local color" on some planets, such as Corellia and Cerea. But if everyone starts doing it, the Jedi Order will become an organization with membership by birth, not by merit. The Jedi are NOT meant to be an aristocracy. And they will degenerate into one.

[RogueLeader]

Agreed...the extreme of killing children does not stem from not being allowed to date, that came from the influence of the sith.

The Taris Padawan Massacre begs to differ.

[Aurentis]

Much, but not all.  Including mine.  Though personally, I'm not anti-Jedi.  I just disagree with them a bit.   My main gripe with the Jedi is the whole self-sacrifice thing.  They help others at the expense of themselves.  I'm all for helping others, but not if it means hurting myself (not just talking about physical hurt here either).  Especially if the "help" I provide is defined by some ambiguous third party.  That I can't stand.

I have to disagree a little bit, here.  There's a distinction that you may be overlooking.  I could be wrong here, and if this comes across as me blowing smoke out my butt or whatever, feel free to tell me so.  
If I may, I'd like to use a little story to help make my point.  It's called "Muddy Road."

Tanzan and Ekido were once traveling together down a muddy road. A heavy rain was still falling.

Coming around a bend, they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash, unable to cross the intersection.

"Come on, girl" said Tanzan at once. Lifting her in his arms, he carried her over the mud.

Ekido did not speak again until that night when they reached a lodging temple. Then he no longer could restrain himself. "We monks don't go near females," he told Tanzan, "especially not young and lovely ones. It is dangerous. Why did you do that?"

"I left the girl there," said Tanzan. "Are you still carrying her?"

There is an element of self-sacrifice, that much is beyond debate.  The intent and mindset of the good samaritan is pretty crucial in defining this moment, though.
This also speaks to the principle of "no attachment."  Tanzan helps the girl, but thinks nothing of it beyond that moment.  He does not do it for a reward, he does not do it because it betters himself, and he does not do it for the approval of others.

Further, this highlights the need to remain grounded despite holding onto lofty and grand ideals of purity.  Ekido was focused on maintaining his path of purity, and avoiding all temptation.  In many ways, this is admirable, but it is also what would have kept him from helping out a fellow human being when they needed it.  Tanzan helped her, and then moved on.

"No attachments" does not mean you forsake absolutely everything and every possibility of interaction to the point of becoming cold and removed from the world.  It simply means you don't hang onto everything you come across.  You help the girl cross the mud, and continue on your path.

This post may be moderated due to the content.  I certainly hope it doesn't, but it very well might.

[Master Rel]

Much, but not all.  Including mine.  Though personally, I'm not anti-Jedi.  I just disagree with them a bit.   My main gripe with the Jedi is the whole self-sacrifice thing.  They help others at the expense of themselves.  I'm all for helping others, but not if it means hurting myself (not just talking about physical hurt here either).  Especially if the "help" I provide is defined by some ambiguous third party.  That I can't stand.

Sounds like you may be a perfect candidate for the Gray order?

[Master Rel]

I think that Jedi marriage results in one unforeseen problem. Force-sensitivity is known to be hereditary. A Jedi who has a family starts a family of Jedi. This is acceptable as "local color" on some planets, such as Corellia and Cerea. But if everyone starts doing it, the Jedi Order will become an organization with membership by birth, not by merit. The Jedi are NOT meant to be an aristocracy. And they will degenerate into one.

Again, I do appreciate your insight