Shii-Cho defeating Makashi

[Darth_Arkanus]

Hi guys!

I have another question, possibly a dumb one, so please bear with me.

I've been watching the TPLA live shows about Makashi and looking at the Canon viewpoint in things like "The Jedi Path" and there seems to be a consensus that Makashi is a refinement and development of the basic learned in Shii-Cho, with a view to Makashi stylists becoming better and more efficient one-on-one Duellists than their Shii-Cho predecessors. (Masters Nonymous and Vornach, please forgive me if I have that wrong, as I'm not meaning to put words in your mouths)

What I'm curious about is multi-fold really.

1st, is it possible to use the Makashi "formula" as it were, which I understand to be using footwork, presenting as small a target as possible, guarding your centre line, protecting your weapon, knocking your opponent off their line of attack so that they lose their "lock" on you with their centre line, but you keep them on yours, creating "contentions" and taking advantage of those opportunities, and using the fluid "parry, riposte" approach; with the Shii-Cho technique? Is this in fact an anathema, in so much that the very nature of the Makashi method is tight controlled and clever attacks, where Shii-Cho "seems" to be more about arcs, more committed heavy cuts, square defensive blocking to the extremities of the body and powerful techniques.

I know that paragraph probably is a bit of a ramble, but I hope I got my point across.

2nd, and perhaps even more contentious, is it in fact possible to defeat Makashi as a Shii-Cho Stylist? We know that a skilled Ataru stylist can defeat Makashi, by making it impossible for the Makashi-ist to control the fight in the way they would like, and equally a Djem So stylist can defeat Makashi by using similar tactics of control, but adding much greater power in technique so that they simple overwhelm the more finessing duellist. Would you say that is a fair assessment?

I'm asking simply because, must as I love the added panache and style of Makashi, I want to make it my own by applying a more "Samurai-esque" style, which is how I see Shii-Cho. (Based on what I've seen of old Japanese Kurasawa movies!)

Any thoughts guys? (apart from, "the boy's an idiot!" lol)

[Master Uilos]

Hi guys!

I have another question, possibly a dumb one, so please bear with me.

I've been watching the TPLA live shows about Makashi and looking at the Canon viewpoint in things like "The Jedi Path" and there seems to be a consensus that Makashi is a refinement and development of the basic learned in Shii-Cho, with a view to Makashi stylists becoming better and more efficient one-on-one Duellists than their Shii-Cho predecessors. (Masters Nonymous and Vornach, please forgive me if I have that wrong, as I'm not meaning to put words in your mouths)

What I'm curious about is multi-fold really.

1st, is it possible to use the Makashi "formula" as it were, which I understand to be using footwork, presenting as small a target as possible, guarding your centre line, protecting your weapon, knocking your opponent off their line of attack so that they lose their "lock" on you with their centre line, but you keep them on yours, creating "contentions" and taking advantage of those opportunities, and using the fluid "parry, riposte" approach; with the Shii-Cho technique? Is this in fact an anathema, in so much that the very nature of the Makashi method is tight controlled and clever attacks, where Shii-Cho "seems" to be more about arcs, more committed heavy cuts, square defensive blocking to the extremities of the body and powerful techniques.

I know that paragraph probably is a bit of a ramble, but I hope I got my point across.

2nd, and perhaps even more contentious, is it in fact possible to defeat Makashi as a Shii-Cho Stylist? We know that a skilled Ataru stylist can defeat Makashi, by making it impossible for the Makashi-ist to control the fight in the way they would like, and equally a Djem So stylist can defeat Makashi by using similar tactics of control, but adding much greater power in technique so that they simple overwhelm the more finessing duellist. Would you say that is a fair assessment?

I'm asking simply because, must as I love the added panache and style of Makashi, I want to make it my own by applying a more "Samurai-esque" style, which is how I see Shii-Cho. (Based on what I've seen of old Japanese Kurasawa movies!)

Any thoughts guys? (apart from, "the boy's an idiot!" lol)

Answer to 1 and 2: Yes.

It's a valid argument, and one that actually resulted in me writing that damned paper of mine. A friend of mine in NYJ was a hardcore Makashi user, and I was/am a hardcore Shii Cho user. He told me outright that I was going to lose in duels. What he didn't take into account was that I 1) had a longer saber that negated the effective reach of his Makashi stance while also exposing his wrist as he was used to swords with hand baskets and 2) Ate at his playing field in chunks while holding my center line. 3) Spurred him on with Dun Moch  I scored a Sun Djem/Cho Mai on him more often than not.

In the end, it all boils down to application.  Shii Cho is meant for battlefield/group combat, but Form I Duelists do exist, but they have their disadvantages. Makashi is meant for Duels, but it can be used correctly for battlefields. It's how you adapt and compliment.

[Darth_Arkanus]

Answer to 1 and 2: Yes.

It's a valid argument, and one that actually resulted in me writing that damned paper of mine. A friend of mine in NYJ was a hardcore Makashi user, and I was/am a hardcore Shii Cho user. He told me outright that I was going to lose in duels. What he didn't take into account was that I 1) had a longer saber that negated the effective reach of his Makashi stance while also exposing his wrist as he was used to swords with hand baskets and 2) Ate at his playing field in chunks while holding my center line. 3) Spurred him on with Dun Moch  I scored a Sun Djem/Cho Mai on him more often than not.

In the end, it all boils down to application.  Shii Cho is meant for battlefield/group combat, but Form I Duelists do exist, but they have their disadvantages. Makashi is meant for Duels, but it can be used correctly for battlefields. It's how you adapt and compliment.

I downloaded and read that. That's a LOT of work!

I take your point about adaptation and application. I also saw your contribution to the 2nd TPLA Makashi Madness session, where you said your perspective was largely from dealing with Makashi people.

How DO you personally adapt Shii-Cho to duelling? Presumably the battlefield application (not that I have any knowledge of these things) is because you can arc from opponent to opponent very quickly and use strikes and rotation that "clear a path" essentially.

Watching the TPLA material the most obvious problem against Makashi is the speed of reflexes and redirects of Makashi. It's like, you just get done doing a parry and they've killed you already on the opposite side to where you parried. Is there a way around that?

I remember one of my favourite Chang Cheh Kung fu films pitted six champions against each other in pairs; three from "North Shaolin" and three from "South Shaolin" (possibly a fictitious dichotomy but anyway....) They paired up as follows;

North - Whirlwind Kick (Basically a guy with very advanced TKD type kicks) vs South - Yun Chung Thrusting fingers (short-range, flexible, exceptionally quick and good at generating power at very close quarters)

North - Chin Kang Palm (Massively powerful Palm strikes and near invulnerability) vs South - Mantis (Powerful, unstoppable and capable of taking huge hits)

North - Butterfly form Pole & "Light Skill" (exotic nunchaku-style pole and tumbling) vs South - Fishtail pole and "Light Skill" (same tumbling, different pole weapon focusing on thrusts to counter the spins of the butterfly form)

My point is there are, I think, lightsaber analogies to be had here.

Whirlwind kick, with its massive sweeping arcs and cantilever attacks (one side them the other, pivot point in the middle) could be seen as Shii-Cho-like, I think. Yun Chung, which stays in close, is flexible, and counters so fast that it gives the opponent no response time, strikes me as very Makashi.

Chin Kang Palm is very stable, powerful and meets force with force; seemingly deflecting an opponents Chi back at them. It's hard to lock that down except perhaps Shien, with the deflection aspect. Mantis, which completely ignores odds, or strikes coming in, and is indefatigable reminds me of the relentlessness of Djem So.

Butterfly Pole and Light skill could be, to my way of thinking, Ataru like, or maybe Juyo (because of the exotic weaponry). Fishtail Pole and light skill strikes me as again the same options, Ataru or Juyo. Maybe we're dealing with two exotic weapons but the same basic skill sets, and the tumbling is very reminiscent of the acrobatics of Ataru.

I'm digressing, but looking at the first pairing, long range and sweeping power against short range flexibility and speed (you did mention that Makashi stylists like shorter blades) Maybe the ONLY way is to not be baited and keep the encounter at your own, longer range, making the Makashi guy reach to get to you.

What do you think?

[Master Uilos]

The trick to Shii Cho vs Makashi is simple in description and a pain in the ass in application. Shii Cho duelling is about chewing up the combat field, limiting your opponents options. The goal against a Makashi user is to limit the ground to where their major Reach Advantage is negated. Makashi is about precision and control, you use Shii Cho's forward relentless thinking to press down and push them back. Remove their control of the environment, remove their footing. You're fighting a sniper with a bulldozer

[GrumpyBadger]

The trick to Shii Cho vs Makashi is simple in description and a pain in the ass in application. Shii Cho duelling is about chewing up the combat field, limiting your opponents options. The goal against a Makashi user is to limit the ground to where their major Reach Advantage is negated. Makashi is about precision and control, you use Shii Cho's forward relentless thinking to press down and push them back. Remove their control of the environment, remove their footing. You're fighting a sniper with a bulldozer

That's awesome!

I know a bit about Scottish backsword and Destreza, and for the longest time most people told me "my form" was Makashi just because of how much time I have with those techniques.  I can work the circle with arguably some of the best of them, and I have the tournament wins to prove it.  However, as good as I am at it, I love Shii-Cho and that to me is "my form."

I couldn't have said it better than "fighting a sniper with a bulldozer."  In my group, we have a set area to fight in that changes every time.  We also practice in only a 7 foot square area.  This helps us adjust to smaller areas.  Form I can be a BEAST in these small "bear pits" because of how we eat up the ground and take away the options of our opponents by putting them in a corner pretty much right from the start.  Also, Shii-Cho's complexity, and to me, it's beauty lies in its simplicity.  It's the combinations that can come from it that really makes things hard for others.  Pressing hard and staying on the aggressive, while not blindlingly so like a Form V can (Anakin anyone!? ) is Form I's greatest asset.  Our defense is in our offense, whereas a Form II and especially Form III, their offense is in their defense and counters.

One thing I've noticed however, is when fighting a good Form II practitioner, be it with a lightsaber, rapier, or backsword, they're good at doing what is called a "transverse step" in Destreza.  Where they move at angles or "around the circle" and step out of our line.  Combining that with a good thrust as a counter, let alone an actual atajo and Form I can be beat fairly quickly.  However, it is only an opening.  Everything in swordsmanship can be thought of as a game of chess.  Each piece has their moves, and only their moves.  It's in the application of those moves that makes the game.

My sword technique in Adrian Empire, where right now, I'm a novice and only allowed to use shinai with no thrusting allowed is almost pure Form I in application and theory.  In the beginning I did a lot of "kissing dirt" as my Knight Instructor is a Marine and I am a veteran as well.  Basically I thrusted a lot which is a bad thing, so I did pushups to remedy that.  As soon as I adopted a Form I mentality however, I stopped thrusting, and my shots got cleaner and I had better footwork!

As Master Uilos has said, it's all in the application and the ability to adapt.

I personally wish we were all closer to each other so we could "dance" as my Instructor calls it.  It would be a great honor to work with all of you.

Also as an aside,
my Makashi lightsaber hilt is only 8.5 inches, or 21.59 centimeters.  It's really short and I built the switch into the choke at the front just behind the emitter.  This allows almost a "trigger" feel and allows my hand to rest much like it does on a ricasso of an espada ropera for Destreza.  Also, like my "rapier," I have a 40 inch blade, so it really depends on the Makashi user.  Here is a picture of almost an exact copy of my espada ropera, made by the same guy too.  I don't actually know if the period example is Spanish, but man it sure feels right.  It was love at first sight really.

[Master Nero Attoru]

Master Uilos summed it up pretty well, but I'll give my own thoughts.  The TPLA approach to these Forms takes the idea that each is a refinement on the last and runs with it, using the first few to set up the concepts used in the more advanced ones.  However, just because they're meant to be learned in series doesn't set up the "rock paper scissor" dynamic that most people assume - the most important thing to remember is that skill level and creativity are always huge factors in the equation, even more so than your preferred Form.  There are many aspects of Makashi that can be used to great effect against Shii-Cho, but as Uilos pointed out the bold methods of Shii-Cho can be difficult for some people to mitigate.  I like to think that I have pretty good maneuvering abilities, but I definitely have situations where I'm feeling cramped by a very mobile and aggressive opponent, and have to adjust to compensate.

I feel like Shii-Cho is one of those underestimated Forms which people presume would "get beaten" by all other Forms, but in fact its simplicity makes it a beautifully efficient weapon if used correctly.

[GrumpyBadger]

Also after what Master Nero has stated, definitely figure out the "approach" you wish to take.  And it definitely feels at least to me, as an outsider that you're following the TPLA which is great.  I'm basically not a member because A) I don't know how to be given where I am and B) it looks like they aren't taking applicants at this time.  I've watched all their videos and enjoyed them immensely. 

I especially like how Master Nero has stated that their approach is

Master Uilos summed it up pretty well, but I'll give my own thoughts.  The TPLA approach to these Forms takes the idea that each is a refinement on the last and runs with it, using the first few to set up the concepts used in the more advanced ones.  However, just because they're meant to be learned in series doesn't set up the "rock paper scissor" dynamic that most people assume - the most important thing to remember is that skill level and creativity are always huge factors in the equation, even more so than your preferred Form. 

I was wondering that myself watching the different dulons and discussions.  It also fits well with Star Wars canon in that's how it is said the forms were created.

[Darth_Arkanus]

Master Uilos summed it up pretty well, but I'll give my own thoughts.  The TPLA approach to these Forms takes the idea that each is a refinement on the last and runs with it, using the first few to set up the concepts used in the more advanced ones.  However, just because they're meant to be learned in series doesn't set up the "rock paper scissor" dynamic that most people assume - the most important thing to remember is that skill level and creativity are always huge factors in the equation, even more so than your preferred Form.  There are many aspects of Makashi that can be used to great effect against Shii-Cho, but as Uilos pointed out the bold methods of Shii-Cho can be difficult for some people to mitigate.  I like to think that I have pretty good maneuvering abilities, but I definitely have situations where I'm feeling cramped by a very mobile and aggressive opponent, and have to adjust to compensate.

I feel like Shii-Cho is one of those underestimated Forms which people presume would "get beaten" by all other Forms, but in fact its simplicity makes it a beautifully efficient weapon if used correctly.

You know, I really do wish that I lived close enough to be able to learn from all of you (and from Masters Nonymous, Vornach, Artorius as well) IN PERSON! I'd be pretty much a full time student! (and probably very annoying! lol)

I'm unlucky in that I do not have a training partner right now. There's my brother, but he has a saber purely for throwing it around in starkiller grip and looking "cool". He has absolutely no interest in the pedagogy of the weapon; sadly. So I guess what I'd like are some one-man drills that I could work on to refine my Shii-Cho, even as I'm still trying with Makashi (I haven't given up, yet, Master Nero!)

I have studied the initial TPLA Shii-Cho material; the footwork...Hutt slide, 3 phase set, 180 degree turns (just like in my TKD from years ago) that's about it really I think? the 3 guards; low/quiessant, Middle and High/Krayt's Horn, the 4 strikes; Sai, Cho, Shiim and Shiak, and the various parries to the 6 zones, also the Dulon, and the velocities, but I'm at a loss as to how to now push that form forward and what to look at/work on to further develop the "style" as it were?

Obviously Makashi is a whole other animal, and one that is baffling me badly. All I can do with that is keep working on the Corona distance Moon Guards, the Sun Dog lvl 1 extemporisations, and on the footwork; cross step (behind and in front), hyper step etc, and HOPE that as my control improves so will my understanding. I know it's going to take months.

Grumpybadger, I really wish I had your rich experience and background (or that of any of the TPLA Masters) because this would be so much easier! I think that you'd probably eat up the material and have a blast. Perhaps something to think about when the applications open up again?

Thanks so much to everyone for your input so far. I really appreciate it!!

[GrumpyBadger]

Grumpybadger, I really wish I had your rich experience and background (or that of any of the TPLA Masters) because this would be so much easier! I think that you'd probably eat up the material and have a blast. Perhaps something to think about when the applications open up again?

Thanks so much to everyone for your input so far. I really appreciate it!!

I'm humbled, really I am, but don't get too far ahead of yourself on certain things.  The TPLA Instructors have earned their places and I am but a humble student, the same as you.  I just have a little bit more knowledge, maybe if that, in the historical side of where these forms came from.  And yes, I am eating up the material and having a blast doing it.  I can't wait til the applications open up again

and as far as distance is concerned, I'm in the US and only about 5 hours away from a major, major city (Los Angeles and San Diego), and only three hours from Phoenix and 1 hour from Las Vegas.  Still, I'm out in the sticks as it were, which suits my nature, so I understand being isolated... of course, if I ever went back "home" to Connacht, I'd probably never come back here.  At least at the same time, you'd only be a short boat trip away

[Master Nero Attoru]

Also after what Master Nero has stated, definitely figure out the "approach" you wish to take.  And it definitely feels at least to me, as an outsider that you're following the TPLA which is great.  I'm basically not a member because A) I don't know how to be given where I am and B) it looks like they aren't taking applicants at this time.  I've watched all their videos and enjoyed them immensely. 

I especially like how Master Nero has stated that their approach is
I was wondering that myself watching the different dulons and discussions.  It also fits well with Star Wars canon in that's how it is said the forms were created.

It'd be great to have you on the LX program!  Next time we're taking applicants I hope you apply, your experience would make for a great new approach to the Forms.

Before becoming a part of TPLA I hadn't necessarily subscribed to that approach, since the canon sometimes suggests that the selection of a Form is more a personal choice than a progression.  I always viewed the Forms as a philosophy, more of a set of tactics than different techniques.  However, I've definitely grown to embrace this new approach, since it's both logical and efficient from a teaching perspective.

You know, I really do wish that I lived close enough to be able to learn from all of you (and from Masters Nonymous, Vornach, Artorius as well) IN PERSON! I'd be pretty much a full time student! (and probably very annoying! lol)

I'm unlucky in that I do not have a training partner right now. There's my brother, but he has a saber purely for throwing it around in starkiller grip and looking "cool". He has absolutely no interest in the pedagogy of the weapon; sadly. So I guess what I'd like are some one-man drills that I could work on to refine my Shii-Cho, even as I'm still trying with Makashi (I haven't given up, yet, Master Nero!)

I have studied the initial TPLA Shii-Cho material; the footwork...Hutt slide, 3 phase set, 180 degree turns (just like in my TKD from years ago) that's about it really I think? the 3 guards; low/quiessant, Middle and High/Krayt's Horn, the 4 strikes; Sai, Cho, Shiim and Shiak, and the various parries to the 6 zones, also the Dulon, and the velocities, but I'm at a loss as to how to now push that form forward and what to look at/work on to further develop the "style" as it were?

Obviously Makashi is a whole other animal, and one that is baffling me badly. All I can do with that is keep working on the Corona distance Moon Guards, the Sun Dog lvl 1 extemporisations, and on the footwork; cross step (behind and in front), hyper step etc, and HOPE that as my control improves so will my understanding. I know it's going to take months.

Grumpybadger, I really wish I had your rich experience and background (or that of any of the TPLA Masters) because this would be so much easier! I think that you'd probably eat up the material and have a blast. Perhaps something to think about when the applications open up again?

Thanks so much to everyone for your input so far. I really appreciate it!!

Keep at it, Arkanus, I know you'll get it eventually.  Keep the right mindset, and be as optimistic as you can.  Believe me when I say that ANYONE can come from any background and learn these things.  You wouldn't believe the clumsy mess I was before I started fencing - as a kid my parents actually discovered that I had no motor skills, which explained my absolute lack of talent at various sports.  After a few years fencing, though, I managed to develop the necessary dexterity for the sport, which has extended to my everyday life in a major way.  Believe me, if I could learn it then you can!

[Darth Nonymous]

If I may offer a different perspective to some of the assumptions being made here.

1. Style vs. Style- a romanic idea that holds little validity in reality. We all bring all of our skills to the table in a fight. The specific training will have certain predictable outcomes but only within a margin of error.

2. Bulldozer vs Sniper: I have a different approach to Shii-Cho than Master Uilos. I do not try to chew up the battle field. The bulldozer is slow and cumbersome and not suitable for that tactic in my experience. The bulldozer doesn't need to move much from the sniper, just line up and let them come to you. You can take it, Shii-cho defence should be like an iron shield. Timing is my tactic. Raise the shovel, let the opponent in and drop that some beach.

Or just plow forward. Your basic strikes should be trained well enough to break through and stop most attacks.

SUN DJEM! The disarming slash is both cannon and reality. Knock the weapon off the line, or destroy it entirely. Expose the soft  and undefended zone 4.

Like shucking scallops.

[Darth_Arkanus]

If I may offer a different perspective to some of the assumptions being made here.

1. Style vs. Style- a romanic idea that holds little validity in reality. We all bring all of our skills to the table in a fight. The specific training will have certain predictable outcomes but only within a margin of error.

2. Bulldozer vs Sniper: I have a different approach to Shii-Cho than Master Uilos. I do not try to chew up the battle field. The bulldozer is slow and cumbersome and not suitable for that tactic in my experience. The bulldozer doesn't need to move much from the sniper, just line up and let them come to you. You can take it, Shii-cho defence should be like an iron shield. Timing is my tactic. Raise the shovel, let the opponent in and drop that some beach.

Or just plow forward. Your basic strikes should be trained well enough to break through and stop most attacks.

SUN DJEM! The disarming slash is both cannon and reality. Knock the weapon off the line, or destroy it entirely. Expose the soft  and undefended zone 4.

Like shucking scallops.

Always awesome to get your input Master, thanks.

I have no idea about scallops, or shucking them, but your approach sounds like it would suit me, mainly because i don't have the mobility & fearlessness for Master Uilos' approach.

Perhaps in timidation might be an approach with Shii-cho? Crowding your opponent, but without over-extending; not that I'm suggesting that the chew up method is an over-extension, but to someone inexperienced it could be.

[Darth_Arkanus]

It'd be great to have you on the LX program!  Next time we're taking applicants I hope you apply, your experience would make for a great new approach to the Forms.

Before becoming a part of TPLA I hadn't necessarily subscribed to that approach, since the canon sometimes suggests that the selection of a Form is more a personal choice than a progression.  I always viewed the Forms as a philosophy, more of a set of tactics than different techniques.  However, I've definitely grown to embrace this new approach, since it's both logical and efficient from a teaching perspective.

Keep at it, Arkanus, I know you'll get it eventually.  Keep the right mindset, and be as optimistic as you can.  Believe me when I say that ANYONE can come from any background and learn these things.  You wouldn't believe the clumsy mess I was before I started fencing - as a kid my parents actually discovered that I had no motor skills, which explained my absolute lack of talent at various sports.  After a few years fencing, though, I managed to develop the necessary dexterity for the sport, which has extended to my everyday life in a major way.  Believe me, if I could learn it then you can!

It's hard to believe you were ever uncoordinated! Lol

I'll definitely keep at it, I want this so bad!!!! 

[GrumpyBadger]

It'd be great to have you on the LX program!  Next time we're taking applicants I hope you apply, your experience would make for a great new approach to the Forms.

Before becoming a part of TPLA I hadn't necessarily subscribed to that approach, since the canon sometimes suggests that the selection of a Form is more a personal choice than a progression.  I always viewed the Forms as a philosophy, more of a set of tactics than different techniques.  However, I've definitely grown to embrace this new approach, since it's both logical and efficient from a teaching perspective.

I fall into that approach as well, from a non-practical standpoint.  I feel to be a proper swordsman, it requires one to learn all the fun ways to "stick the pointy end in the other man."  I'm definitely Form I in philosophy, and I gotta say, I'm honored and humbled you'd like me to apply.  It'd be a wonderful experience.  I'm working on those Shii-Cho dulons as we speak, with a mop stick because I swear our place has leprechauns

Keep at it, Arkanus, I know you'll get it eventually.  Keep the right mindset, and be as optimistic as you can.  Believe me when I say that ANYONE can come from any background and learn these things.  You wouldn't believe the clumsy mess I was before I started fencing - as a kid my parents actually discovered that I had no motor skills, which explained my absolute lack of talent at various sports.  After a few years fencing, though, I managed to develop the necessary dexterity for the sport, which has extended to my everyday life in a major way.  Believe me, if I could learn it then you can!

Here you go again Darth Arkanus, QFT

you would not believe the clumsy kid I was back before I wanted to play as Zorro and had a Spanish-American Californio neighbor be kind enough to show me how.  Most of my scars on my legs and arms come from using a Scottish Baskethilt and Claymore being used the wrong way!  My Grandmother, yeah, she pretty much gave up hope on me ever being a "prop'r Scotsmn"

also, just noticed something in your first post.  I come from an instructor background, but not anything having to do with swordsmanship but definitely martial nonetheless.  Where I come from, I always had an open door policy, and the only "dumb question" was the one not asked.

[Master VorNach]

Master Uilos summed it up pretty well, but I'll give my own thoughts.  The TPLA approach to these Forms takes the idea that each is a refinement on the last and runs with it, using the first few to set up the concepts used in the more advanced ones.  However, just because they're meant to be learned in series doesn't set up the "rock paper scissor" dynamic that most people assume -

This idea runs in both directions, so to speak.
Each Form builds on the preceding one, however knowledge gained in a new area can then be applied to concepts that have been learned in an earlier Form.
Learning can have a generalized effect on related skills.