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Question: Should we further define the Force Users by their connection/use rather than mission statement?
Yes...Light, Dark, and Grey Force Users
Yes...but I want a better name to define them
Yes...I will provide my thoughts in the comment section
No...I prefer titles such as Jedi and sith

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Author Topic: Defining the nature of Force Users  (Read 23216 times)
Deceptae
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2014, 01:01:30 PM »

Mayor adam west of family guy! Only meaner.
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Xaeyon
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2014, 09:22:50 PM »

I think you're bang on the money! Adam West is perfect (-1)
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Vixus PriX
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2014, 07:05:05 PM »

force user as in forrum alignment, or on RP... in the case of RP, are you talking about like Vixus? he has a sith mentality, but a  jedi alegiance.
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Spensus
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2014, 10:48:34 PM »

I think there is definitely a lack of non-jedi/sith force users portrayed in SW Universe. I am actually thinking of basing one of my characters on a partially trained jedi turned bounty hunter.
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Master Rel
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2014, 07:50:45 AM »

Welcome to the forum!

If you are interested in the RP section, I can fit such a character in one of the T&P games...there are smugglers, pirates, bounty hunters already  Cheesy

PM your ideas when they come to you.
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Light side points please Smiley

crisjim4
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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2014, 06:01:31 PM »

im trying to come up with a character not just for these forums but as a future( in the next 2-3 weeks) ultra saber owner.  my thought earlier went right along with this feed in my character is either a sith apprentice who learned dark side skills saved by the jedi or just in general a force user interested in the full use of the force dark or light. still working on it  Grin
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Master Rel
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« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2014, 08:26:19 PM »

im trying to come up with a character not just for these forums but as a future( in the next 2-3 weeks) ultra saber owner.  my thought earlier went right along with this feed in my character is either a sith apprentice who learned dark side skills saved by the jedi or just in general a force user interested in the full use of the force dark or light. still working on it  Grin

Good luck and success with either direction!

Let me know if I can help the process!
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Light side points please Smiley

dasweallycool
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« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2014, 05:52:27 AM »

I think there is definitely a lack of non-jedi/sith force users portrayed in SW Universe. I am actually thinking of basing one of my characters on a partially trained jedi turned bounty hunter.

Hey there,

My created character (somewhere in the depths of my brain) was brought up in the Jedi order, but then during the Cull by 'ole Darthy V, hid and became a bounty hunter.. hiding true identity and a kind of "grey palladin", using skills from both Light and Dark sides.. no lightning, but force choke from time to time (not to death, just as a sleeper kind of move)..

wholeheartedly believe that in the dark times, the Jedi must do what they can to keep alive, in hope one day they can come out of the dark and into the light...

#justsayin'

Adz.
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SlenderTheEnder
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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2014, 07:38:00 PM »

My own ideal character, the one I picture myself as, studied under jedi and sith and is detached from both orders. He is kind of a wandering sentinel, but not. He's driven to create a holocron to preserve a new order, which 'corrects' the other force traditions out there. He uses a lot of dark moves like sith lightning, but chains them with light moves. He isn't really worried about dark or light, just about what gets the jobs done.
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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2016, 08:47:26 AM »

others servers and self servers. these  older  identifications are very applicable.  Jedi and sith characters fit these ID's.  the grey characters ?  elements of surprise.
   
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DarthProdigal
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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2021, 11:42:56 PM »

This is a great topic I think will always be relevant in SW, so I'm going to weigh in since that was the OP's intent. I have always (at least since wading into the EU) believed in the "grey area" within categorically defining Force users.

I myself am Sith because in part I'm certainly not Jedi... but that said I would not be generally accepted as Pure Sith. I do not 24/7 100% agree with and follow all things Sith, so on that logic I'd be some form of heretic to Dark Side teachings in theory. I've liked terms like Dark Jedi, Grey Sith, and Grey Jedi since hearing them. Numerous games (I will avoid mentioning specifically to avoid potentially spoiling them for others here) show multitudes of variations of Force users outside the two orders. I would more so definitely fall in the camp of a Grey Sith. I would fail to fall firmly into D&D structure in SWU shading, really being more dependent on situation. Never wanting to put a whole galaxy above my own survival, but within reason making compromises to allow for a more interesting galaxy than not to exist. Ergo, just because I could enslave, destroy, or consume everything to gain greater power, influence, or control wouldn't make those the best choices just because they're terribly Dark Side! It's boring if every living lifeform is dead, your endless servant, or within some eternal collective giving you unlimited power but relegating them to mere cogs within your being. It's fun to have a new death battle, conquer a new world, or outwit a worthy nemesis.

Also just because someone is stronger and more devious than I does not mean I would suffer their reign simply because it's "the will of the Dark Side", I'd go "oh heck no you moron, sheer power does not determine your worthiness" and if need be team up with Jedi, bounty hunters, or blow up solar systems all to remove such beings. So I don't know where I'd be categorized but I do enjoy a bit of justice, order, or seeming nobility at times. To me a Sith would want all the power they could obtain, not just Dark Side powers... so certain studies and considerations may have to be made. Not everything is purely black and white. A degree of balance certainly adds some needed stability in the long run.
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Dark Lords of the Sith have ruled collectively and individually for Millenia. One afraid to wield a power is ultimately unworthy of it. Ascendancy into the light has an apex, yet descent into the darkness is endless. The Dark Side can give or take anything, based on user strength. I claim the title of Darth Prodigal Dark Lord of the Sith as my own. Through pain, our Code, and right of combat it is mine; and so shall it be defended. Follow Darth Bane's wisdom. (Only Dark Side Points Preferred.)

SirLiftaLot
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« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2021, 06:39:55 AM »

I do agree that having Jedi and Sith as seemingly all-encompassing, contrasting umbrellas for force users does seem a bit narrow-minded. I suppose there is even a bit of nuance within them, but that nuance sometimes seems a bit awkward. A “Grey Jedi” isn’t really a member of the order, so are they still a Jedi? A fallen member of the Jedi order may have been called a “Dark Jedi,” even though they not only don’t obey or follow the order but may even oppose it. I guess the Dark Jedi just never officially became Sith as part of the defined ideology or structure? It almost seems like it is “once a Jedi, always a Jedi” unless you formally join a different, competing organization, like the Sith. You leave the order and follow the force, or do you own thing, and you’re a “Grey Jedi.” Leave the order and embrace the dark side and you’re a “Dark Jedi.” But aren’t you not a Jedi anymore in both these instances?

But perhaps that wasn’t such a common issue in eras past? Maybe the “modern” era’s oversimplification of light vs dark, good vs evil, and “balance” leads to “Jedi vs Sith” seeming to be all-encompassing. It has been said “only a Sith deals in absolutes,” but some of these labels seem sort of absolute at times.

Potentium does seem to be a more “Grey Jedi” oriented or compatible philosophy for someone who wants to be part of an ideology that isn’t overly idealistic to one side, such as the Jedi or Sith. It seems to be less of a, pardon my comparison to modern theology, “Christian” view of good (God or the light side) vs evil (the Devil or the dark side), and more of a universal energy/creator/source that is impartial and can be used for good or evil. More of an eastern view. It merely is, and always has been. It is us who put labels on these things and miss the forest for the trees. Missing reality in its totality trying to put it into clean little boxes.

Perhaps the Jedi and the Sith being the largest existing groups of force users with the most power leads to more recruitment of force sensitive users, and more numbers, resources, and influence results in them continuing to get the best recruits, as well as bring out the most of their recruits’ potential, furthering their power and influence, increasing their advantage. Other groups are smaller, have less resources and scouting, and may even find themselves an enemy to both the Jedi and the Sith, which wouldn’t exactly favor a long life. People who become disillusioned with the Jedi or Sith may well leave and do their own thing, or even join a smaller group of like-minded individuals, but it’s improbable they create a third group as large as the other two, as if they did, and it became a viable potential threat to the Jedi or the Sith, or even to both, they may be squashed preemptively before they could gain too many followers or too much power.

Hell, the Jedi had civil wars with other Jedi, so they’d have no problem fighting a group of former Jedi if they view them as a threat to their power and influence. And I don’t think I need to tell you that the Sith would have no problem trying to recruit these people and killing them off if they refuse to join their ranks.

I feel it’s almost like the Two Party system in America. They dominate the system so thoroughly that any third parties have a hard time even getting any recognition. In reality, if everything was starting from scratch and no one had that built up infrastructure of power, history, numbers, and resources, most people may well find themselves agreeing with a more centrally minded, neutral party, such as the Libertarian party, often described as drawing form both sides (conservative economic policy and liberal social policy, as a bit of an oversimplification). But as is, they’re at such a disadvantage, and both parties want to keep the other parties from threatening their party, so it’s almost like the enemies work together in a roundabout way to keep any other group from threatening either of their power. It wouldn’t be unfounded or outlandish to think that the same thing can apply with the Jedi and the Sith, where any other group of force users is squashed out and not even given the time of day in reality, even if it would have a ton of appeal to most people in a vacuum.
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DarthProdigal
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« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2021, 09:46:17 AM »

(clipped)

Counter to millennia of Jedi teachings, the followers of Potentium claimed that there was no inherent evil in viewing the Force. They claimed that what others called the light side of the Force was actually just the Force itself, which was inherently good. This was backed up by the fact that Ashla, the ancient name of the Force, came later to describe the light side. What others therefore called the dark side was a perversion of the Force, twisted by those who used it.

Believers of Potentium said that the potential for light and dark sides resided in the user, not the Force itself,[1] and that the Jedi are merely afraid to explore the full potential of the Force.[2] They also thought that the Jedi Masters refused to believe in the Potentium view because it would mean the Jedi were not needed to fight evil, for evil would not exist. And since there was no dark side, there were no dark side actions or Force techniques; in effect any action, good or evil, could be performed without risk as long as the intent was not evil. Some Jedi theorized that the Potentium may have originated as a Sith scheme to subvert Jedi teachings.[1]

About a century before the Battle of Naboo, the followers of Potentium were expelled from the Jedi Order, parallel to the Jedi Order's treatment of Gray Jedi as "misguided." Yoda and the rest of the Jedi High Council did not consider them Dark Jedi, but they said it was the duty of the Jedi to use the Force to protect others, not study its absolute limits. The Council said that testing the Force to its limits would lead to the dark side.

It should be noted that some followers of the Potentium still attempted to avoid the dark side. They, however, saw the dark side as something within themselves to be avoided, not something in the Force. They reasoned that if the Force was the energy that flows through all life, the dark side simply came from the corruption of humanity. They felt that if they could be perfectly moral, they could be immune to the dark side and therefore use any technique they wanted. This view is somewhat similar to the Unifying Force theory of the Force.

(clipped)

I do agree that a Potentium Jedi Order would be well received, especially by our sith hugging fellow forumites!

They would still be Jedi because of their desire to do good for others rather than any selfish pursuits.

Smiley
Potentium does seem to be a more “Grey Jedi” oriented or compatible philosophy for someone who wants to be part of an ideology that isn’t overly idealistic to one side, such as the Jedi or Sith. It seems to be less of a, pardon my comparison to modern theology, “Christian” view of good (God or the light side) vs evil (the Devil or the dark side), and more of a universal energy/creator/source that is impartial and can be used for good or evil. More of an eastern view. It merely is, and always has been. It is us who put labels on these things and miss the forest for the trees. Missing reality in its totality trying to put it into clean little boxes.

I do really like this, as it would certainly fall more in line with my personal view on Force use. But I'll still play against it minorly for the sake of argument... It's a very seemingly valid viewpoint... but (and I'm almost regretting uttering it as I say it) the Council would not be considered "wrong" from their viewpoint if you consider the ideology and actions of one Anakin Skywalker. He could easily be held as an example of one who falls roughly in line with this way of thinking. Willing to use whatever action/power would achieve the "goal and greater good". Now I know, he does abandon/ignore/become blind to the morality or ethics behind his means therefore in standard Jedi views and Potentium views succumbs to selfish desires and corrupts the Force itself into the Dark Side. So it's truly hard to debate "right and wrong" if you factor in things like Prophecies or the "will of the Force" so I'll attempt to leave the philosophy there as best I'm able...

I agree that fundamentally the traditional Jedi and Sith solely are two narrow a view or focus to encompass all Force users... Although that may be easier for onlookers to digest, most agree that it's usually easy enough to interpret protagonists or antagonists, if these are even conceptually relevant at the time. I know a certain lady (I'll choose not to name) disliked such titles or such firm definitions for good reason. EU Legends and lore make more diverse use of the shades in between and not categorically or flatly defining everything as black and white purely. Though I know at times the sequel trilogy did well at blurring those lines, or highlighting discrepancies in rigid doctrines which defined the orders... I'd agree there is much left to be desired in adequately describing most Force users. I'd argue it's hard to quantify something or "put it's users into clean boxes" when it is within all things and connecting all life. So if one likens the Force to sunlight, and sees that yes it can be divided or forced into different colors this may be true. But only based on perspective, since human eyes or interpretation could easily change the viewpoint or make one fail to perceive it at all. Being born color blind, being of a different species, or blind all together would be appropriate references; but in truth varying cultures then have different names, views, or discoveries that further differ.

Therefore it's certainly my assertion and opinion that we'd have to move beyond simple one or the other Sith & Jedi, but some could easily still cling to or categorize within those archetypes. They may not be too one dimensional for those who choose to be dogmatic or relegate to such a seemingly limited view... But the Force itself is not limited in such a way, thus it's users should be perceived as equally varied or described in such a way too.
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Dark Lords of the Sith have ruled collectively and individually for Millenia. One afraid to wield a power is ultimately unworthy of it. Ascendancy into the light has an apex, yet descent into the darkness is endless. The Dark Side can give or take anything, based on user strength. I claim the title of Darth Prodigal Dark Lord of the Sith as my own. Through pain, our Code, and right of combat it is mine; and so shall it be defended. Follow Darth Bane's wisdom. (Only Dark Side Points Preferred.)

SirLiftaLot
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« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2021, 05:20:39 PM »

I do really like this, as it would certainly fall more in line with my personal view on Force use. But I'll still play against it minorly for the sake of argument... It's a very seemingly valid viewpoint... but (and I'm almost regretting uttering it as I say it) the Council would not be considered "wrong" from their viewpoint if you consider the ideology and actions of one Anakin Skywalker. He could easily be held as an example of one who falls roughly in line with this way of thinking. Willing to use whatever action/power would achieve the "goal and greater good". Now I know, he does abandon/ignore/become blind to the morality or ethics behind his means therefore in standard Jedi views and Potentium views succumbs to selfish desires and corrupts the Force itself into the Dark Side. So it's truly hard to debate "right and wrong" if you factor in things like Prophecies or the "will of the Force" so I'll attempt to leave the philosophy there as best I'm able...

I agree that fundamentally the traditional Jedi and Sith solely are two narrow a view or focus to encompass all Force users... Although that may be easier for onlookers to digest, most agree that it's usually easy enough to interpret protagonists or antagonists, if these are even conceptually relevant at the time. I know a certain lady (I'll choose not to name) disliked such titles or such firm definitions for good reason. EU Legends and lore make more diverse use of the shades in between and not categorically or flatly defining everything as black and white purely. Though I know at times the sequel trilogy did well at blurring those lines, or highlighting discrepancies in rigid doctrines which defined the orders... I'd agree there is much left to be desired in adequately describing most Force users. I'd argue it's hard to quantify something or "put it's users into clean boxes" when it is within all things and connecting all life. So if one likens the Force to sunlight, and sees that yes it can be divided or forced into different colors this may be true. But only based on perspective, since human eyes or interpretation could easily change the viewpoint or make one fail to perceive it at all. Being born color blind, being of a different species, or blind all together would be appropriate references; but in truth varying cultures then have different names, views, or discoveries that further differ.

Therefore it's certainly my assertion and opinion that we'd have to move beyond simple one or the other Sith & Jedi, but some could easily still cling to or categorize within those archetypes. They may not be too one dimensional for those who choose to be dogmatic or relegate to such a seemingly limited view... But the Force itself is not limited in such a way, thus it's users should be perceived as equally varied or described in such a way too.
Regarding Anakin, he is a prime example of the failings of the Jedi. I can private message you some more nuanced details of why, backed with some modern real-life comparisons that may ruffle more feathers than would be appreciated here, but it was a lack of acceptance of reality that lead to the Jedi Order failing Anakin. The Jedi were chastising a young boy ripped from slavery, his mother still left in slavery, for having some fear, while they were incessantly outwardly discussing the fear they had of what Anakin may become. Saying attachments and romance if forbidden while putting a powerful, horny young Jedi in one-on-one protective duty with Natalie Portman was doomed to fail. They could have easily bought Anakin's mother out of slavery and put here up somewhere nice. Even if Anakin was forbidden from seeing her, if she was safe, and he knew it, he wouldn't fear losing her. Sure, you can say he should learn detachment in the real world, as it is, but why make his first lesson when he's starting already older and more powerful than a typical padawan such an intense baptism by fire? Let him learn detachment from his family by not seeing his mother, not fearing for her literal life and knowing there's nothing he can do about it. Do we also train padawan in combat by throwing them into a Rancor pit on day one to fend for themselves? Qui-Gon regularly disobeyed the council. Obi-Wan at one point was willing to leave the order for love.

I would say it isn't Anakin's desire to good by any means necessary that lead to his tragic downfall by my estimation. Rather, I would say it was the flawed and overly protective and sheltered instruction and dogma the Jedi Order forced him to try to live by. He couldn't go to anyone asking about his worries and fears, because he was just told "fear is bad." And he could not ask for advice about his fear of losing his mother because, again, "fear is bad," and "attachments are forbidden." Forget him being able to ask about his feelings for Padme. "Attachments are forbidden. Do not have them." Sure, that's going to work out so well when left alone with Natalie Portman.

I maintain that the Jedi Order failed Anakin, and lost their way over time. I hardly think that's a very controversial take even, as Yoda pretty much admits much the same thing if I recall.

But back to the topic of Jedi vs Sith, light vs dark. Perhaps it is like various martial arts. A single form is great, and a practitioner of it can become incredibly formidable, but no one martial art is the totality of combat. Sticking to one path and learning it well is probably a good general rule of thumb, both in martial arts and in a view of the force. But to truly see the totality, one may be better suited to not be constrained by artificially imposed dogma and rigid systems.

Did you ever hear the parable of the cat and meditation? I think it does a good job of illustrating how, over time, even a noble path and belief system can lose its way and stray from the original meaning and purpose.
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DarthProdigal
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« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2021, 06:46:58 PM »

I keep looking back at these definitions again and again:
http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=17731.0

in an attempt to categorize where I'd more often than not fall...

Since generally in RPGs I'll play through multiple times on varying paths, and even on "dedicated playthroughs" certain actions are often counter to the path I've adopted. Like being "good" but stealing whenever it's worth it or too great an opportunity to pass up. And similarly an "evil" play through saving people or helping them if the reward justifies such actions... who cares how many "villains" must die as a result if I get paid legendary items or enough gold. I would almost tend toward defining it as chaotic, but tend not to be that random. But true, generally anyone might die for the slightest infraction or insult if it can be survived after or detection avoided. I'd probably say somewhere in between neutral evil and chaotic evil if I had to choose definitively. True neutral may better explain the outright acts of chivalry or valor that happen on occasion, but I'd say there is too much wanton slaughter or savagery generally to be anything but evil... It may be impossible to pin down for sure and definitively. Hence why I tend to make several character sheets and fill the role that fits best with the party, or just sounds the most fun without completely breaking the party dynamic. That may be one step closer to chaotic thinking itself, but it's always hard to say. I still think these are pretty good descriptions and relevant enough within SW as well. Many many characters could be grouped rather cleanly into these D&D models.

Btw, those were fair points about Skywalker. Throughout his life he'd be shifting between these definitions for sure. Maybe chaotic good as a boy, lawful good as a knight, shifting into more chaotic good toward the end, and lawful evil as a Sith. Talk about character development.
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Dark Lords of the Sith have ruled collectively and individually for Millenia. One afraid to wield a power is ultimately unworthy of it. Ascendancy into the light has an apex, yet descent into the darkness is endless. The Dark Side can give or take anything, based on user strength. I claim the title of Darth Prodigal Dark Lord of the Sith as my own. Through pain, our Code, and right of combat it is mine; and so shall it be defended. Follow Darth Bane's wisdom. (Only Dark Side Points Preferred.)

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