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Poll
Question: Should we further define the Force Users by their connection/use rather than mission statement?
Yes...Light, Dark, and Grey Force Users
Yes...but I want a better name to define them
Yes...I will provide my thoughts in the comment section
No...I prefer titles such as Jedi and sith

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Author Topic: Defining the nature of Force Users  (Read 21382 times)
SirLiftaLot
Knight Lt. Commander
*

Force Alignment: 102
Posts: 488



« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2021, 09:16:02 PM »

Let's just say that I've spent enough time painting that I'm covered head to toe in grey paint.  And a whole bunch of other random colors. 

Balance is life.  We kid ourselves when we try to adhere to one side, or the other.  Watch nature for five minutes.  Even the Buddhists, who are supposed "pacifists" have a concept called The Mirror.  Try to punch a Shaolin or Fukien monk in the nose, and watch what happens.  He won't kill a cow, but you'd best believe that he'll defend himself or his homeland.

My rambling point is this: 

This is how the symbol for balance should be drawn, or something similar.  the normal symbol doesn't show how much the two dualities actually mesh.
Very interesting. I like that symbol. I have never seen it before though. You remind me of something Bruce Lee once said:

"The common mistake of most martial artists is to identify these two forces as Yin and Yang, as dualistic... But Yin/Yang is one inseparable force of one unceasing interplay of movement. They are conceived of as essentially one, or as two coexisting forces of one indivisible whole... If this 'oneness' is viewed as two separate entities, relization of the ultimate reality of gung fu won't be achieved."

Bruce Lee was an incredible martial artist. I do not think anyone even needs to say that, but he was an equally skilled philosopher in my eyes. And I think he may well have been an incredible Grey Jedi, seeing beyond the duality of light and dark, seeing the totality. Freedom in combat and in life.
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"He who conquers himself is greater than another who conquers a thousand times a thousand men."

"Research your own experience. Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add what is essentially your own." -Bruce Lee

JoleeBindo
Knight Sergeant
*

Force Alignment: 18
Posts: 84


Light side points only, please.


« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2021, 09:17:45 PM »

I agree wholeheartedly regarding Qui-Gon's role in Anakin's future. I have heard that "Duel of the Fates" was referring to the duel for the fate of Anakin's future. Obi-Wan was a brother to Anakin, but what he needed was a father. Qui-Gon could have played that role well by my estimation. But instead Maul won, and by extension, Palpatine, won, and sealed Anakin's fate, as Palpatine took up the role Anakin's father figure. Ultimately, it was still Qui-Gon's ability to see the totality and will of the force that ended up redeeming Anakin in the end though. He was the one who discovered how to retain consciousness after death, helping Yoda and eventually Obi-Wan to do the same, which was instrumental in helping Luke be able to defeat, and redeem, his father, Anakin. I can only imagine the Jedi Anakin would have become if Qui-Gon was around to help teach him himself.

I hadn't realized that Qui-Gon was the first conscious Force Ghost.  I know that the Valley of Souls was aptly named because of the trapped "force echoes" of the consciousnesses trapped,  long before this, but I don't think that was a conscious choice on their part.  That gives me things to ruminate on.  I respect him even more, now.  My primary saber is a Consular, in consular green, if that tells you how much I respected the man, to begin with.
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"But from now on, you can just think of me as any other non-Jedi in our little group with a lightsaber. And Force powers."

SirLiftaLot
Knight Lt. Commander
*

Force Alignment: 102
Posts: 488



« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2021, 09:24:23 PM »

I hadn't realized that Qui-Gon was the first conscious Force Ghost.  I know that the Valley of Souls was aptly named because of the trapped "force echoes" of the consciousnesses trapped,  long before this, but I don't think that was a conscious choice on their part.  That gives me things to ruminate on.  I respect him even more, now.  My primary saber is a Consular, in consular green, if that tells you how much I respected the man, to begin with.
As far as I am aware, Qui-Gon is the first canon conscious Force Ghost, although I think he may have "only" been a voice, as he had not quite finished his training when he was slain by Maul. I read there were perhaps some in far gone ages who had known, but that knowledge was so long lost it was not even considered a possibility by Yoda before he heard Qui-Gon talking to him. So I think we can give Qui-Gon the credit for the discovery, as it was at least a rediscovery from his oneness with and understanding of the force that helped him to get there, not just discovering some ancient holocron or something to that effect. Sounds like you made a good choice with your saber.
Logged

"He who conquers himself is greater than another who conquers a thousand times a thousand men."

"Research your own experience. Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add what is essentially your own." -Bruce Lee

JoleeBindo
Knight Sergeant
*

Force Alignment: 18
Posts: 84


Light side points only, please.


« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2021, 09:27:18 PM »

Very interesting. I like that symbol. I have never seen it before though. You remind me of something Bruce Lee once said:

"The common mistake of most martial artists is to identify these two forces as Yin and Yang, as dualistic... But Yin/Yang is one inseparable force of one unceasing interplay of movement. They are conceived of as essentially one, or as two coexisting forces of one indivisible whole... If this 'oneness' is viewed as two separate entities, relization of the ultimate reality of gung fu won't be achieved."

Bruce Lee was an incredible martial artist. I do not think anyone even needs to say that, but he was an equally skilled philosopher in my eyes. And I think he may well have been an incredible Grey Jedi, seeing beyond the duality of light and dark, seeing the totality. Freedom in combat and in life.

That is high praise, Sir.

The essence of his art, Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do (I am well aware that you know that, but others may not) and the meaning of that phrase (The Way of The Intercepting Fist) are one.  Defense by attack: Stop Hit.  Attack by Defense: Tornado Block (debilitating to an opponent's limbs if delivered forcefully.) These things you know, I am certain.  He exemplifies that duality is a misnomer, as it is impossible to have one without the other, and the center of the whole concept is just infinite gray, as they blend.

He was the most knowledgeable external martial artist of our time, I believe.  His library contained more than 3,000 books, and he read them, not just collected them.  His every waking moment was spent in the flow of his art.  He was truly one with the Force of martial arts, and Chi, I believe.  Stephen Kaufman paraphrased Miyamoto Musashi, and perhaps said it best, in my opinion: "You cannot trifle with the spirit of the thing itself." Sifu Lee was fully immersed in this, I believe.  
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"But from now on, you can just think of me as any other non-Jedi in our little group with a lightsaber. And Force powers."

DarthProdigal
Knight Commander
*

Force Alignment: -196
Posts: 1070


Korriban Armory Chief, Sith Mage, Hybrid Sith...


« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2021, 09:40:48 PM »

You raise a very good point that Black and White are predominately featured on the palettes of less experienced painters.  As one spends more time with a brush in one's hand, the paints tend to get smeared together.  Giving rise to infinite shades of grey.  But this is something that has to be learned for oneself. It's impossible to download another's experience through osmosis.  A not-so-wise man once told me: "Perception is reality."  He was and is as Sith as they come, and the way he meant this was disgusting.  However, I put the concept to use in a more noble fashion than he intended it.  Again, giving rise to grey from a starker shade.
A wise man once told me that honesty without compassion is brutality. So even if I truly believe that light and dark oversimplifies things too much, telling someone, a young Jedi perhaps, who is not yet prepared for this information can be doing them a disservice. Leading them astray from what is a generally good path to a confusing mess of shades of grey they are not yet prepared for.

I'm horribly familiar with that particular expression as well, "perception is reality" and indeed quite thankfully it does have as many potential applications as possible perspectives under the stars... It resonates well in it's general application with "honesty without compassion is brutality". I know that not from hearing it (although I now rather like it) instead from experience. One aspect of my cruelty or lack of compassion is certainly brutal honesty, which must be held in check often lest I shatter people's minds.

Most are not ready for the truth, would often rather not hear it, or would much prefer their own acceptable/watered down versions. Hence it being easier to view the universe through lenses such as Dark Side and Light Side of the Force... Choosing not to fathom that a Sith could be more heroic than some Jedi on their best day. Or a trained and "dedicated" Jedi more monstrous than some Sith on their worse day. It takes time to grow into such thinking, or witnessing events unfold which speak to these truths. This is why wisdom must be gained not given. Sought out or pondered to fathom it's depths... One of my favorite quotes is "Something once learned cannot be un learned" you can forget, repress, become senile/succumb to dementia or amnesia but that knowledge was still imprinted. And in all cases there tends to be a chance, situation, or way that it resurfaces. The young (as all people) are ready for certain truths at their own or some proper pace. Certain lessons or information would only indeed have the opposite effect if offered as advice or improperly understood lessons. Some believe all people are blank slates, others inherently good or evil... IMO it is for the most part irrelevant. Intelligent creatures have the ability for self determination. While effected or influenced heavily at times by our environments or surroundings free will remains. It's why individuals will surprise with what lurks within their depths. Humans especially are complex and multifaceted creatures if given room to develop, and free reign to think. Good and Evil, Dark Side and Light Side, keep peeling layers of the onion or licking the tootsiepop to see what's at the core. What colors describe self righteous senses of justice gone awry, dark pursuits in the name of great purpose, madness itself? These might be the times you see many instead unite against threats common to all Force users or the galaxy at large... If Jedi and Sith work together does that change their natures, make them less or more?

Such things may be blasphemy or heresy to some, but if required for survival suddenly it becomes more preferable? A Jedi, a Sith, and an exile enter a bar... what could be said leaves afterward?
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Dark Lords of the Sith have ruled collectively and individually for Millenia. One afraid to wield a power is ultimately unworthy of it. Ascendancy into the light has an apex, yet descent into the darkness is endless. The Dark Side can give or take anything, based on user strength. I claim the title of Darth Prodigal Dark Lord of the Sith as my own. Through pain, our Code, and right of combat it is mine; and so shall it be defended. Follow Darth Bane's wisdom. (Only Dark Side Points Preferred.)

JoleeBindo
Knight Sergeant
*

Force Alignment: 18
Posts: 84


Light side points only, please.


« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2021, 09:54:35 PM »

Such things may be blasphemy or heresy to some, but if required for survival suddenly it becomes more preferable? A Jedi, a Sith, and an exile enter a bar... what could be said leaves afterward?

I'll tell you what would leave that bar.  Three fools, drunk on some foul concoction some Rhodian probably brewed in an old boot, musing about the Force, and it's infinitely and varied permutations.  Not a bad way to pass an evening.

I want to know what Revan, Darth and regular, would have to say about this whole concept we've been bandying about.
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"But from now on, you can just think of me as any other non-Jedi in our little group with a lightsaber. And Force powers."

JoleeBindo
Knight Sergeant
*

Force Alignment: 18
Posts: 84


Light side points only, please.


« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2021, 09:41:32 PM »

*kicks horse one last time*

Old Japanese saying "In the spring, even the dead horse tosses it's mane."
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"But from now on, you can just think of me as any other non-Jedi in our little group with a lightsaber. And Force powers."

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